Talk:Fair trade

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[edit] How fair is Fairtrade?

Hello, what do you think about this:

--Featured 15:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV?

This article reads like a Fair Trade webpage. Even the "criticisms" are strategically placed to be promptly refuted in the pro-Fair Trade manner and tone of the whole. Indeed, less than half the text of the "Criticisms" section is spent discussing the criticisms of Fair Trade - the bulk is spent on rebuttals to those criticisms. -PM —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.209.46.240 (talk) 03:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

The criticism section of this article is sad. The article as a whole portrays ignorance of even fundamental economic principles. Unless the artificially high prices of fair trade can be maintained forever, they will eventually lead to magnified economic collapse of whatever is supported by the prices in the first place. I'm not questioning the motives of those who promote it, but to say that there is a rational economic argument to be made for fair trade is bunk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.140.154.13 (talk) 02:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I just came in to take a look at this article, and I actually agree with FT, but this is ridiculous. The whole article is one big pro-fair trade bonanza. The criticisms section is tiny and, as you point out, all economic criticisms are immediately refuted. Meanwhile, the "mainstreaming" criticism that comes from the left and suggests fair trade is not doing enough is left as a standing point. This article has a lot of interesting information, but NPOV it most certainly is not.70.132.14.64 19:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Partially disagree. I didn't read every bit ... but scanning down the page I came across this section:

Singleton's comments echo the main criticisms of Fair Trade, that "it also leads fair trade producers to increase production." While benefiting a number of Fair Trade producers over the short run, fair trade critics worry about the impact on long run development and economic growth. The reason coffee prices are so low on the world markets is that there is too much production.[39] By encouraging even more supply of coffee, fair trade makes the world price fall further.[39] This makes the vast majority of coffee producers worse off. It also focuses attention away from dealing with the real, long term solution to this problem, while giving retailers more money than the farmer sees.[39] Though the adjustment progress is difficult, this creative destruction is a core component of economic growth.[citation needed] By stopping price signals, fair trade may encourage inefficient activities that will not lift the world's poor out of poverty over the long run.[39]

  • (first bold section) is a stronger against FT than the article used to support it, for example the article says: "Mr Bretman of FLO International disagrees. In practice, he says, farmers cannot afford to diversify out of coffee when the price falls. Fairtrade producers can use the premiums they receive to make the necessary investments to diversify into other crops. But surely the price guarantee actually reduces the incentive to diversify?" as a response to Tim Harfords assertion (in a book called “The Undercover Economist” (2005)) that fairtrade lowers global prices. [me] In any case it's capitalist greed that lowers global prices, [global coffee] companies could own plantations and simply choose to pay workers a living wage rather than paying the lowest possible price on a global market.
  • (second bold section) doesn't say anything. It's not factual and probably too speculative for Wikipedia? Pbhj 22:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Some of the peopel who contribute to this page have kept the criticism at bay, whereas at the same time they ahve insisted that teh introduction to the Rainforest Alliance does contain criticism as well as an unfavourable comparison to Fairtrade. How fair is that? definitely biased. Mtl1969 10:12, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

We all devote some time on Wikipedia trying to bring in our own perspective and improve the articles here. As I said before, all the contributions I've made on the RA page were made in good faith and I truly believe make the article more interesting and complete. As for the fair trade page, it has significant criticism sections and several links to the fair trade debate page, which discusses in detail each of the most common criticism of fair trade. And who are you to criticize my impartiality, all your contributions have been to Unilever-related articles and topics... isn't it strange you've started noticing fair trade on wikipedia just when Unilever chose cheaper RA certification over fair trade a couple of weeks ago? Vincentl 11:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Vincent1, i did not name any user in particular- so i cannot have been critisising your impartiality. If you feel that I am addressing you, that says more about how you see yourself. Also, I cannot see any criticism in the Fairtrade certification page(one word, not 'Fair Trade') introduction, which is the one i was referring to. i have refrained from making edits in any of the pages as i prefer to reach consensus first on the discussion page- no need to get offended. Also, if you look at my contributions you will see that your allegations that i only contribute to Unilever articles are simply not trueMtl1969 13:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. I just added criticism sections on the Fairtrade page (including the lead). In the future, please assume good faith (WP:GF) and instead of bashing the work of editors, please try to make constructive comments and suggestions. Thank you Vincentl 15:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Vincent1, i agree with your change, but also with your comment to 'please assume good faith (WP:GF) and instead of bashing the work of editors, please try to make constructive comments and suggestions.' which i found lacking in your earlier comments today. Mtl1969 16:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

In order to properly address and discuss this I added a NPOV tag 194.60.106.5 15:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Missing edits

I've noticed that some of the older edits in this talk section are no longer around, and they havent been archived. I'm not sure exactly how to create archives, but I do know that a large portion of this talk section was deleted by Vincentl on the 6th of October 2006. I'm going to put a request out there for someone who knows what they're doing to create an archive of old/deleted discussions.

Dupz 10:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


Please do create an archive if you know how, I didn't know that feature existed. I just deleted the edits because this page was getting way too long and some cleaning was desperately needed. Vincentl 10:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Created 2 there may be an over lap bet better than it missing. --Nate 12:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Effects of a Price Floor graph

Maybe I'm just dense, but I can't make heads or tails of the "Effects of a Price Floor" graph. Is there any way to make that graph easier to understand? Kaldari 19:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I finally figured it out: The blue line is demand, the red line is supply, and the green line is the price floor (although none of them are labeled). Kaldari 19:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm an economics major who was confused by that graph, so I changed it. Topher0128 16:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] spelling

This article is inconsistent as to its use of British English or American English. As there is no strong tie to any one English speaking nation, this article should use the variety used by the first significant contributor, which is this case was American English. Is there any compelling reason to switch over to British English, before I go through and change a bunch of words? Natalie 18:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Only comment would be how, well known is free trade in America? Other wise (while it makes me wince every time I see some spellings) I'd have to agree --Nate 19:41, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm guessing you mean how well is fair trade known in America, since we know free trade backwards, forwards, and upside down. :) It's hard to make a comparison since I haven't ever lived in another country, so I don't know how well known fair trade is in other countries, but it is certainly known here. For example, megacorporation Starbucks made a highly publicized switch to fair trade coffee a few years back. While buying fair trade may be more popular in Europe, the concept does not have a tie to any one specific country. I understand the wincing as I'm a nut for consistency - seeing "labour" and "organization" in the same sentence makes me wince. Natalie 20:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why it's a problem and I actually like to see different spellings in the same article-- it's a sign of the collaborative nature of Wikipedia.---Gloriamarie 08:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_math.png

I've been reading "The Undercover Economist" by Tim Harford and he has an interesting comment on Fair Trade the way some companies use it. What would you think of something like:

Fair trade can also have substantial benefits for retailers, in some cases even more benefit that it has for the people it's intended to help. In The Undercover Economist, Tim Harford explains that retailers often try to maximize profits by charging different customers different amounts depending on their willingness to pay. The difficulty is identifying customers who will pay more without them realizing it. He uses the example of a coffee shop that charged more for "fair trade" coffee. Customers who could and would pay more, would self-select to pay the premium price. Harford discovered that the additional charge per cup far exceeded the additional amount that went to the coffee farmers. He notes that the fair trade coffee did substantially increase farmers' income, but 90% of the additional money customers paid went to the coffee retailer.

The Book is: The Undercover Economist Tim Harford 2006 Little Brown ISBN 978-0-349-11985-5 Harford writes the Dear Economist column for the Financial Times (Jpommer 20:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC))

Although I think it's a good observation, I disagree with the add: there have been a number of studies on fair trade pricing in the past years and although it is true disproportionate retailer profit margins do occur in non-competitive frameworks (i.e. new markets), in mature markets, competition drives back these margins to normal levels. In the UK for example, the Fairtrade Foundation has conducted studies in 2005 that concluded that the majority of retailers do not increase their profit margins on fair trade products, "for fear of losing market share" in the growing market. A similar study was also conducted in Quebec by Equiterre, an environmental and consumer-rights NGO, and also came to the same conclusion (the study is available here [1]).
Quite the opposite, there are actually instances of retailers reducing their profit margins in an effort to boost sales and improve their corporate image: in December 2006, British retailer Sainsbury's announced for example it would offer from now on only Fairtrade bananas - and this was achieved without any increase in the cost paid by consumers.
Does Tim Harford back his claims with numbers? If not, do you think you could ask him where he got these assumptions from? Vincentl 22:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Please be careful when using NPOV tags: drive-by tagging is not permitted on WP: The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, namely Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag. Tags should be added as a last resort.
Please respond to my earlier comments and let's engage in a constructive discussion here before flagging the entire page. Thank you. Vincentl 20:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The "Benefits" and "Criticism" sections are noticeably out of wack: the Criticism section is met with arguments of supporters against those criticisms, but critics do not get to answer the proponents in the Benefits section in return. Tim Harford is a reliable source, brings up an interesting point, and his work should be cited in the article; it is not for Wikipedia editors to conduct original research and decide whether his sources or methods are up to snuff, but simply to write a balanced article including them. Both sides of that issue should be discussed. Where are the sources for all the assertions made above about Sainsbury's?--Gloriamarie 08:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello Gloriamarie. Thanks for the fixes on the page! To answer your question, the sources for the assertions about Sainsury's are here [2] and here [3]. Also do check out the Equiterre study [4], it has very interesting data about Fair trade pricing, pretty much contradicting all the assertions made by Tim Harford. I personally think it is misleading to readers to post information about assertions that are not backed up by any evidence whatsoever. WP says:
"Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources. All articles must adhere to Wikipedia's neutrality policy, fairly representing all majority and significant-minority viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in rough proportion to the prominence of each view.[4]
In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.
I do not feel like Tim Hardfort's assertions can be trusted as reliable (esp. since I have information proving the contrary), unless he has any particular info/study to back up his claims...Vincentl 14:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Health of workers and other social aspects

One of the most convincing arguments for Fairtrade (I'm not sure about it's less well defined cousin "Fair_Trade") is the requirements concerning health and safety of the workers. These include requirements concerning child labour (children can't work if it takes them away from educational prospects), pregnant workers, use of safety equipment when working with pesticides, etc., see eg [[5]]. Very little of these humanitarian benefits has been made in the article which instead focuses on purely financial aspects. So, maybe workers aren't getting all the extra you pay for fair trade bananas - but they also (providing the certification authority is working properly) aren't being sprayed with pesticides whilst they work just because clearing the fields is a bit of a time waster. Also workers have protected rights to be unionised and to use collective bargaining agreements. Other benefits to the producers concerning longer term agreements which allow proper planning are also down played. Any thoughts on this? Pbhj 22:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair Trade in America

   * 7.1 European politics
   * 7.2 French politics
   * 7.3 British politics
   * 7.4 Italian politics
   * 7.5 Belgian politics

What about America? Well apparently since nobody has defined it in American terms, I am going to take a shot at it.

Fair Trade simply means Free Trade except in cases where the wage disparity between the US and another foreign country is so great, then tariffs be used to mitigate outsourcing. Disparities also can include retirement benefits, health care insurance, child labor laws, overtime laws, or any other type of employee benefit a civilized society would create in order benefit the "general welfare of the people." In addition fair traders embrace Thomas Jefferson's concept of reciprocity:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/presiden/jeffpap.htm

"The following principles, being founded in reciprocity, appear perfectly just, and to offer no cause of complaint to any nation:

   * 1.Where a nation imposes high duties on our productions, or prohibits them altogether, it may be proper for us to do the same by theirs; first burdening or excluding those productions which they bring here, in competition with our own of the same kind; selecting next, such manufactures as we take from them in greatest quantity, and which, at the same time, we could the soonest furnish to ourselves, or obtain from other countries; imposing on them duties lighter at first, but heavier and heavier afterwards, as other channels of supply open. Such duties having the effect of indirect encouragement to domestic manufactures of the same kind, may induce the manufacturer to come himself into these States, where cheaper subsistence, equal laws, and a vent of his wares, free of duty, may ensure him the highest profits from his skill and industry. And here, it would be in the power of the State governments to co-operate essentially, by opening the resources of encouragement which are under their control, extending them liberally to artists in those particular branches of manufacture for which their soil, climate, population and other circumstances have matured them, and fostering the precious efforts and progress of household manufacture, by some patronage suited to the nature of its objects, guided by the local informations they possess, and guarded against abuse by their presence and attentions. The oppressions on our agriculture, in foreign ports, would thus be made the occasion of relieving it from a dependence on the councils and conduct of others, and of promoting arts, manufactures and population at home.
   * 2.Where a nation refuses permission to our merchants and factors to reside within certain parts of their dominions, we may, if it should be thought expedient, refuse residence to theirs in any and every part of ours, or modify their transactions.
   * 3.Where a nation refuses to receive in our vessels any productions but our own, we may refuse to receive, in theirs, any but their own productions. The first and second clauses of the bill reported by the committee, are well formed to effect this object.
   * 4.Where a nation refuses to consider any vessel as ours which has not been built within our territories, we should refuse to consider as theirs, any vessel not built within their territories.
   * 5.Where a nation refuses to our vessels the carriage even of our own productions, to certain countries under their domination, we might refuse to theirs of every description, the carriage of the same productions to the same countries. But as justice and good neighborhood would dictate that those who have no part in imposing the restriction on us, should not be the victims of measures adopted to defeat its effect, it may be proper to confine the restrictions to vessels owned or navigated by any subjects of the same dominant power, other than the inhabitants of the country to which the said productions are to be carried. And to prevent all inconvenience to the said inhabitants, and to our own, by too sudden a check on the means of transportation, we may continue to admit the vessels marked for future exclusion, on an advanced tonnage, and for such length of time only, as may be supposed necessary to provide against that inconvenience."

There is nothing unAmerican about embracing tariffs, seeing that the US federal government ran entirely on tariffs when the founding fathers ran the country. In fact some (me) would argue free-traders are unAmerican, backstabbing, treacherous.68.106.248.211 (talk) 12:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest making the changes you suggest to the Trade justice article - fair trade here refers to the consumer movement that promotes certified and non-certified goods from developing countries (such as handcrafts or coffee for example bearing the fair trade certification mark). The fair trade in politics section describes government initiatives in the regulation of the fair trade consumer market... unfortunately in the US there has not been any such initiative as of now, hence no section on the US. I hope that helps... Vincentl (talk) 12:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
"The mostly widely referred to demand of trade justice campaigners is often access to the markets of rich countries by developing countries. When developing countries export to developed country markets" This is absolutely not what fair-traders in America are proposing. That is similar to foreign aid.68.106.248.211 (talk) 10:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Automatic addition of "class=GA"

A bot has added class=GA to the WikiProject banners on this page, as it's listed as a good article. If you see a mistake, please revert, and leave a note on the bot's talk page. Thanks, BOT Giggabot (talk) 05:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does fair trade promotes local markets ?

I was reading some info about fair trade, concept variations on a folder about it.

It seams that that some people also see fartrade as a way of trade in which local resources are prefered. In simple it is seen as fartrade to grow apples for example in the neterherlands and then sell them too in the neterlands. In contrast it would be selling those same apples in germany france of america. The wrong thing about that, is that distribution is putting polution in the environment, a bad thing. So far trade could be also trading with a limited amount of distribution, therby promoting :

. promoting less distribution related polution . promoting local products . promoting local farmers . promoting local markets . and promoting local economoy . also it should limit export dumps (dumping dutch apples in kenia , where it will destruct apple economy/farmers markets).

In this view its also wrong to buy in the netherlands apple juice from Africa. I'm not sure this folder is right about it, but i was supriced to have bought apple juice made in Africa. Altough it does support their economy a bit, as i payed a bit more for it as well, it's not a good use of farming resources. Since applejuise can be made in my own country as well, and be distributed with less polution. It would have been better if that apple juice was sold in Africa itself. 82.217.143.153 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proper noun

"Fair Trade" is a proper noun, a name, of a particular movement. As such, it should not be listed as "fair trade", "Fair trade" or any other reference, as that confuses the issue. - Denimadept (talk) 19:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] perfect

Anyone want to do some more research on this subject? The Free trade and market failure section is grasping at straws. No free market economist I've met has ever required perfect conditions for any market to work properly. Nor has ANY economist ever claimed that fair trade will be without its own market failures. At anyrate it is unfair to make use strawman reasoning for a wiki article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.110.172.111 (talk) 22:57, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mistaken idea of Fair section

Can soemoen help me with this? It is important and different. Larklight (talk) 19:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions

I think it may be useful to have more than just the FINE definition of fair trade, as that seem to be more appropriate as a definition of Fairtrade.

Also, under the "Key fair trade principles" section, it states that "Fair trade advocates generally support the following principles and practices in trading relationships". I would suggest that it would be more accurate if it was changed, to say something like "Fair trade advocates generally support one or more of the following principles and practices in trading relationships" or "Fair trade organisations displaying the FTO mark support the following principles and practices in trading relationships".

AS several peope have said before the criticism section does seem to be balanced rather in favour of a rebuttal, of the rather shorter, criticism. As there is a link to the fair trade debate article, the response sub-section seems rather out of place and i would suggest removing it. In light of the rest of the article, it does seem to violate NPOV as it is, in my view. Jihmiller (talk) 14:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why does "fair trade impact studies" section read like someone's report?

Or a research paper? It just doesn't sound correct for an encyclopedia... ~user:orngjce223 how am I typing? 02:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WENSDAY 4th 2008

FAIR TRADE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.190.131 (talk) 15:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)