Talk:Etiquette in Europe

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[edit]  ?????

Is this actually an article? None of these "facts" have citations.

--Johnnydc 06:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Violates WP:NOT#GUIDE fairly comprehensively due to being a how-to guide on etiquette with elements of a travel guide. Also fails to represent a worldwide view (WP:CSB) by being generally targeted at a US audience (and manages the impressive feat of appearing condescending to both Americans and Europeans). I would seriously consider nominating this article for deletion. --carelesshx talk 23:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
It's fascinating and useful. While certainly it would be appropriate in any guide, I do not see why one would not have such information on etiquette in particular regions and countries in an encyclopaedia. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing people should be worrying about is improving the style/content of this article, although it's a fair sight more useful already than say our "master" article on Tradition (apparently one of the most important 150 articles for an encyclopaedia to have.
I have to wonder at people wanting to delete everything that doesn't seem quite right, or fitting our ever-changing and inconsistent "guidelines" or "policies". zoney ♣ talk 23:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The article is certainly up to par. As goes for the corresponding "etiquette" articles about other continents. While you can certainly write about Etiquette, it should be in an encyclopedic - meaning that it should describe particular traditions and etiquette, their history, etc.
This is just a guide "how to behave", which is misplaced here. If you want to write this kind of stuff consider Wikitravel, where it is welcomed. It's not enough for something to be fascinating and useful to meet Wikipedia standards.
Moreover, Europe (or Africa, or ...) is much too diverse to have a useful "Etiquette" article. This article is just a list of (supposed) behaviour rules, which in most cases are irrelevant or wrong. All information that could possible of value about this topic could easily be included in the sections/articles about the individual countries.
Has this already been nominated for deletion? Averell (talk) 18:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Multiculturalism

Unter the heading Multiculturalism, I found the following sentence;

"...to badger a Hindu to accept food that violates her dietary laws is a faux pas that would offend many Europeans (and educated people elsewhere) regardless of their own denominational backgrounds.

Does this imply that Europeans are the standard by which all "educated" people elsewhere are measured? This statement smacks of ethnocentrism. I suggest it should be revised.

On a side note, my experience as an African in Europe are to the contrary. I often get "badgered", more so than I would elsewhere. While I accept this, and view it more as natural interest or curiosity, it can lead to some tense moments, particularly when dealing with some people.

It's a rather poorly written subsection in general, I think. Why is the Hindu in the example female? Is it just to prove that the writer is not a sexist? I think so.
It is misleading, at best, since it implies that badgering a male Hindu to eat beef is in some way acceptable, at least according to these (slightly spurious) laws of etiquette.Malcolm Starkey 22:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Door holding

I added a mention to door holding in the UK section, but does it happen elsewhere in Europe? Uncoolbob 23:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, at least in Finland and the Nordic countries generally it is polite to hold the door for the person following you but it's not exactly required of you. Of course if the door has an aggressive closing mechanism, you are expected to take this into account as to not cause injuries when someone follows you close by, but that's just common sense :) . Then there's the old gentlemanly etiquette of holding doors open for women which is sometimes still observed, but mostly rather infrequently due to the ruling philosophy of gender equality.
By the way, I noticed that many (if not most) of the British rules of etiquette mentioned in the article are the same for Finland as well. Finnish etiquette is of course of Scandinavian origin (mainly by way of Sweden due to 700 years of "cohabitation" in the Swedish realm) but the UK's major cultural influences are truly mixed: Celtic, Roman, Germanic (Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian), French/Western European and later colonial sources. So, I'm amazed that there aren't too many differences in customs between the UK and the Nordic countries. Maybe it's because the Nordic countries have had such a strong commerce early on with the British Isles — like timber and tar for the ship building industry — this could have made the petty-bourgeois merchants in the smaller Scandinavian countries adopt more British than French or German customs as a matter of prestige. On the other hand it's hard to imagine an inverse process because the Nordic countries have been less developed (and smaller and subsequently less influential) than Great Britain for the most part of the second millennium and it's generally known that cultural influences go from the high-prestige culture to the low-prestige one and not vice versa. --jibun≈παντα ρει≈ (keskustele!) 00:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Door holding is observed in Portugal as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.136.74.7 (talk) 18:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scandinavia

I believe somebody should correct the Scandinavian chapter for the simple reason that Finland is included in it. I am not an expert, so I will let somebody else doing it.

Turkuamk 18:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeed, this section should be titled The Nordic countries; nonetheless this section is the appropriate one for Finland because for the most part the Finnish etiquette (and culture) is the same as the Swedish one. The T-V distinction is observed slightly more often in Finland than in Sweden but other than that I can't recall any major differences (other than the majority language of course) between the two countries. I was born to Finnish immigrants in Sweden and moved to Finland when I was 10, so I should know. --jibun≈παντα ρει≈ (keskustele!) 01:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Alright, here's my version of the section which prefers the phrase Nordic countries instead of Scandinavia when possible. You can see the changes here. If no-one opposes, I'm going to deploy the changes into the article. Improvements solicited. --jibun≈παντα ρει≈ (keskustele!) 03:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sardinia

For foreigners it is not understandable, but in Italy the stereotype of a Sardinian is a shepherd, ignorant, talking in a very bad Italian. For its history (look at the articles), language and traditions were downplayed, or prohibited. The long-lasting isolation was a factor to these stereotypes, and played a makor role in our language, which began to be contaminated by Italian just in the late 60s.

We might take a joke on our shepherd heritage laughing, but it may put you in a very bad position. As for our language, it is a language, not a dialect, and we are very proud of it, so again jokes may be accepted, may be not.

[edit] American Section

I deleted that little warning to Americans about the faux pas of bring up American Foreign Policy.It has no place here.

At least I THINK I deleted it.Still new here.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Callisto1 (talk • contribs) 09:42, 25 May 2007

An IP address has deleted the section several times today without leaving an explanation in the edit summary, so the deletion ends up being reverted as vandalism. You should make sure to leave an edit summary when you make any edit, but especially for deletions of material.—Elipongo (Talk|contribs) 10:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I got it :D Ryratt —Preceding comment was added at 15:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poland

I've removed the following, which is not clearly explained, more common in the southern Poland and does not only concern medical staff.

Doctors, even in social situations are often addressed as "pan doktor" or "pani doktor" (Mr. Doctor or Mrs. Doctor). This is due to class division and many people still believing doctors are of higher class and/or breeding.

[edit] Expansion

These articles should be expanded into separate articles. There is one for the Dutch already, so why not have one for the United Kingdom, Germany, and France as well? It would be interesting to learn more about their unique customs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Klichka (talk • contribs) 19:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Croatia: the three fingers.

While in Croatia, you can not hold up the thumb, index, and middle finger to indicate the number 3. It's deeply upsetting. Apparently it goes back to the Balkan war.

Serbs, who are generally Orthodox Christians, wave their hand in this gesture during various religious ceremonies to signal a cross, much in the same way Catholics signal a cross.

The three fingers was displayed by Serbs during the Balkan war to symbolise victory. After the war, it was used to antagonise Croatian's, particularly during sporting events. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.222.6.200 (talk) 23:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ireland

To Irish people, you are only Irish if you grew-up or were born in Ireland

This sounds a bit strange and rather subjective. It would mean that James Connolly, Erskine Hamilton Childers, Robert Erskine Childers and loads more would not be allowed to call themselves Irish? LOL, talk about POV. Hereitisthen (talk) 20:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC) accordind to jerky Etiquette is one of the important thing in the world but when you visit my web site i can tell all i know about Etiquette .... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.53.214.186 (talk) 03:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spain

I verified a part about tipping in Spain and found it was noted incorrectly in the article. It said that tipping was common in Spain, and it is not. I referenced a source that I feel is reliable. Having traveled to Spain, I know that the material is correct. Ccid122907 (talk) 03:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to change anything, but I live in Spain, and somebody else ought to change this. I have no idea where the previous poster found information saying that restaurant owners might consider a tip to be an insult, and the tipper is never coming back.

Tipping is generally optional but NEVER insulting, and it's quite common. You don't have to tip 15% except at an expensive restaurant or if you are a large party; the wait staff is salaried and does not depend on your tips for their income. At a diner/snack-bar/cafe for a check of less than about €10, you can leave the change. At a €20-30 per person restaurant, a couple of euros is OK.

You don't have to tip cab drivers but a euro or two is fine if you want to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.33.158.121 (talk) 19:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Serbia

In Serbia, leaving a glass full when one is done drinking is a traditional way to invite wealth and prosperity into a home.

Can somebody attest to this actually being true for where they live? I grew up in Vojvodina and if I learned one thing about leaving anything in your glass when you're done drinking it's that it invites bad luck for your host - quite the opposite of what is stated here. --87.116.138.177 (talk) 23:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)