Talk:Ducati Motor Holding

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Contents

[edit] Exclellence

This is an encyclopedia and is intended to offer as much as possible a neutral point of view. To say the company is noted for excellence, and then have that statement footnoted to an enthusiast's website -- is a bit specious.

Let's work on a more balanced way of describing Ducati's particular forte's and prowess -- but let's stay away from grandstanding in the meantime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.232.63.100 (talk) 15:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Development of the Article

I plan to add additional info regarding the history of the company, other products they have made, and info on the designers of Ducati bikes. I may add some additional info on model types and better details on the generations on types Izaakb 16:15, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to add the following sections/infos:
Company History by era (Ducati brothers, Government, Cagiva, TPG, current)
The Berlin brothers
Subsections for the race categories (?)

anyone else have some good ideas? Izaakb 18:55, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I have just edited the page on the Ducati Paso - you might want to review and nick some of it for this page? Rgds, --Trident13 21:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Models

I have added a models section - it's presently a very unexhaustive list! Any help appreciated. Rgds, --Trident13 19:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

How extensive are you thinking of going? I think maintaining a full lineup may be too much work. Perhaps a general lineup with notable bikes showcased? That's what I was going for. --Izaakb 16:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Whoever the anonymous user (81.86.109.12) who keeps changing the order of the external links is, please stop. I reported the vandalism to your ISP (Pipex) - Izaakb 18:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pics not working?

Can't figure out what's up with the pics. Wiki not working? Izaakb 17:57, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Seem fine to me - --Trident13 21:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Galuzzi article

I heard that Miguel Angel Galuzzi saved ducati with his monster design. I think he deserves a section on the "Ducati Motor Holding" article or a full article.

Also the text below all photos should say the year that the bike is.

Licurgo 18:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that Galuzzi needs a whole section in this article, but certainly honorable mention. Galuzzi has quite a bit of success, maybe a whole separate article for him. I know of three successful bikes he's designed. Good idea to add the year for the photos, thanks--Izaakb 16:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Galluzzi article created. Please note the correct spelling of his name. -Izaakb 18:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ducati History

Just added two subsections on early history: singles and air cooled v-twins with intent to do water cooled v twins and appolo v4 sections. Hope its OK. Seasalt 14:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

"Ducatis, BMWs and Moto-Guzzis use dry clutches, most other models use wet clutches."

http://www.clarity.net/~adam/buying-bike-content.html

Seasalt 11:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

But is that an authoritive statement and what is the scope covered? GraemeLeggett 13:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Also the timeframe is implicit not explicit - my Bantam had a wet clutch in 1953 - so what does adoption mean? GraemeLeggett 13:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not aware that BMW nor Guzzi currently use dry clutches. I think it is fair to make a reference to it, but the article should be clear that Ducati is the only current company to make motorcycles with a dry clutch. Izaakb 18:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Graeme, I thought I had made it more acceptable, but feel free to edit/clarify. It is currently linked to a Yamaha oil use recommendation page, quoted below:

"Motorcycles use a drive system similar to that of a standard transmission but with a couple of very significant differences. The clutch is contained within the engine cases running in the same oil as the engine components as well as the gear box. The oil not only has to lubricate the moving engine parts, it must cool and protect the clutch plates plus resist the extreme sheer forces acting upon the transmission gears. The formulations used to blend standard automobile oils do not address these conditions and in the case of additives like friction reducers can actually accelerate the wear and adversely affect the performance of the motorcycles power transmission. NOTE: there are a few exceptions where motorcycles use a dry clutch or external gearbox but these are not common."

Seasalt 11:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Izaakb, the shaft drive models used to, and I assume they still do, but its a single plate car type dry clutch. Also CZ motorcrossers used to use multiplate dry clutches. "Ducati is the only current motorcycle manufacturer using the multiplate dry clutch in its road bikes."? Feel free to edit anything left unclear or just plain inaccurate.Seasalt 11:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions for the "Ducati History" section:

  • Government management years (1974? - 1985)====
  • Cagiva Ownership Years (1985 - 1996)====
  • American Owners and going public (1996 - 2005)====
  • Investindustrial: Back in Italian Hands (2006 - present)====

Izaakb 15:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, the government was involved before 1973, but changed the government administrator to De Eccher, who put an end to singles, round case V-twins, and racing. I think 1973 is the year u wanted above. A very good idea,and, to take it back to beginning....

  • Government IRI management years (1950 - 1967)====
  • Government EFIM management (1967 - 78(control over day-to-day factory operations)====
  • Subsidiary of state-subsidised VM Group (1978 - 85)====
  • Cagiva Ownership Years (1985 - 1996)====
  • American Owners and going public (1996 - 2005)====
  • Investindustrial: Back in Italian Hands (2006 - present)====

(The EFIM management had a change of "overseer" in 1973.)

That is only as far as I currently know.Seasalt 11:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Excellent additions.

Fyi, Ducati Elettronica was the name of the Ducati subsidiary prior to 1950s split. After split, the subsidiaries were Ducati Meccanica and Ducati Elettronica, but later called Ducati Energia. (see www.ducatienergia.it for info) Izaakb 01:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

In the eighties it changed. So its not relevant to 1953.Seasalt 10:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cagiva, TPG, Ducati and correct name

The TPG purchase of Ducati from Cagiva was initially a joint venture, with TPG buying 51% of Cagiva's holdings. (New York Times, Oct 1, 1996) Cagiva later wanted to get out of any ownership of Ducati (competing with their own marque) and sold the rest of its holdings to TPG in 1998 (Mergerstat M & A Database, 9/6/2003, Ducati Motor Holding SpA)

As of July, 1998, TPG was the sole stockholder (100%) of Ducati's outstanding shares.

From Mergerstat:

(Deal Description: Texas Pacific Group and Deutsche Morgan Grenfell acquired the remaining 49% of Ducati Motor SpA from Claudio and Gianfranco Castiglioni for an undisclosed amount. Texas Pacific Group and its partners had acquired 51% of Ducati in September 1996. Ducati will continue to operate under the direction of its Italian management team and will remain based in Bologna, Italy. Ducati had sales of ITL386.3 billion (US$ 218.3 million) in 1997, representing an 86% increase over revenues of ITL207.2 billion (US$117.1 million) in 1996. Percent Owned Before: 51.000% Percent Sought: 49.000%)


There was some discussion of a joint-venture between TPG and Cagiva but it did not come to fruition. Cagiva was apparently very reluctant to sell Ducati. (Ducati & Texas Pacific Group: A "Wild Ride" Leveraged Buyout, Harvard Business Publications, Feb 2, 2001) Cagiva was so indecisive that TPG nearly walked away from the deal after negotiation for over a year.

When Ducati (DMH) was floated in a public offering (March 1999), TPG sold off part of their holdings and remained with approximately 30% of outstanding stock. (Hoover's IPO Reports, March 19, 1999)

TPG's sale to Investindustrial was TPG's "30% holding minus one share." Mergerstat M & A Database, 3/3/2006, Ducati SpA

Ducati's "official" name as of their IPO is Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A. (Hoover's IPO Reports, March 19, 1999)

The current CEO of Ducati, Federico Minoli, was originally appointed to the board by TPG and later elected to be CEO. He no longer has an affiliation with TPG, having returned to Ducati "out of love" (Ducati: a success story in red, Credit-Suisse EMagazine, Sept 8, 2004)

-Izaakb 15:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ducati ownership history since 1985

1985 - Cagiva buys out Ducati from Italian government
1996 - TPG buys 51% and all assets from Cagiva
1998 - TPG buys remaining 49% from Cagiva.
1999 - TPG floats Ducati stock and sells approximately 65% of its ownership in stock
2006 - Investindustrial Holdings buys TPG's remaining 30% stake, minus one share. HOOPP Investment Management and Italian private equity firm BS Private Equity SpA purchase "an undisclosed minority stake" (probably the other 5% of Ducati stock in TPG's holdings)

All data from Mergerstat M & A Database

-Izaakb 16:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The Castiglioni's told Alan Cathcart it was initially 49% and 49% with "the remaining 2% being parked with an Italian Bank as a gaurantee of good faith between the parties, and to hold the balance in the event of a dispute" Thought then to be Fiat Bank, but unspecified at time of writing.(Australian Motorcycle News, August 23, 1996, Page 31)

Cagiva had a buy back option (they were never able to exercise)

It was included in the deal "that Ducati will be floated on the New York Stock Exchange within three years, thus effectively providing TPG with the profit from its investment." (ibid)

The Castiglionis had cash flow problems, meaning bills dont get paid and production staggers, and the TPG deal was their answer. In anticipation of the split, they set up a second design centre in Varese under Galluzi separate to the San Marino CRC under Tamburini.

There's a great quote from " a top Italian industry executive"

"Because demand for Ducati bikes remained so high, the Castiglioni family had no choice but to concentrate most of their available investment in it. The profits from Ducati propped up the rest of their empire. To be honest, Ducati is a niche marque which has limited potential growth. There will never be a Ducati with more than two cylinders, and that only appeals to a limited selection of customers." "Cagiva has the potential to become a fully fledged world marque building four cylinder bikes that are capable of taking on the Japanese." "Don't write them off: these guys know how to make motorcycles the public wants, and now they've bailed themselves out of their financial jam, I'm sure they'll bounce back stronger than ever."Seasalt 15:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

That's a pretty interesting bit of info. Cagiva has a lot of potential, but since they've never broken into the US market, it makes it hard to succeed. Shame, really, but it's provided a lot of room for Ducati to succeed, actually. If the Cagiva Raptor was available in the US, I would be hard-pressed not to buy one.Izaakb 15:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Desmosedici photo will be deleted

It's been decided that the Desmosedici PR photo will be deleted from Wikipedia due to the policy on PR material use. Ducati releases the photo for personal or non-commercial use, and I believe it qualifies for fair use by Wikipedia, but the concensus was that it does not. Being an IP attorney, I am a little surprised at this considering the manner of distribution which Ducati offers (i.e. image copyright is asserted, but distributed free for any non-commercial use -- is Wikipedia commercial?) I practice law using statutory copyright laws, not GFDL type rules, so please help me out here. I contacted Ducati before posting all the photos in the Ducati article and was told that any non-commercial use was acceptable -- I specifically mentioned I was contributing with the edits to Wikipedia and that it was acceptable to them. Izaakb 15:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MotoGP championship in 2003?

neither ducati, nor loris capirossi won the rider's or manufacturers MotoGP championship in 2003, please correct, the 2003 championship was Valentino Rossi (riders) and Honda (mfg)

Good catch. I checked around a little bit. I wonder how that got there... It's gone pending investigation. -- Ben 22:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
It was my fault -- I was using the tables from the ducaticorsepress.com website and must have misread it, it was probably a podium/1st finish for Capirex in '03. Unfortunately, I cannot find the table i was using, which I also used to update the WSBK standings and manufacturer titles. Izaakb 15:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletions of images

Folks, in the interest of civility, please don't delete images whose status are questionable unless their status is FINAL. Images who are being "considered" for deletion do not qualify. Simply put, leave the image until the image is scheduled for deletion. And if you want to be a REAL Wikipedian, then find a good suitable replacement for the image, as others have done. Thanks! Izaakb 15:56, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AMA Superbike

Why was the information about Ducati's AMA efforts removed?--Davidwiz 18:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

it would help if you post a link or a diff to the material IzaakB(my Talk)contribs 19:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It was there, now it is gone. I'm going to add info about AMA Superbike and MotoGP.--Davidwiz 16:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutral Tone

Unless the statement "...long been known for their excellence in design and performance but unfortunately, not reliability" is somehow verified, this sort of claim seems to be nothing more than a claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.152.244.206 (talk • contribs)

[edit] "World's first four-stroke scooter"?!"

A lot of this entry seems to be poorly-researched PR fluff rather than scholarly history. For example, the entry states "Ducati made an impression at the early 1952 Milan Show, introducing the Ducati 65 TS cycle and the Cruiser, the world's first four-stroke scooter." This is absurd. The Motoped -- the very first mass-produced motor scooter, back in 1910 -- was four-stroke, as were the hundreds of thousands of Cushman scooters produced in the 1930s and '40s. It also states "In the 1960s, Ducati earned its place in motorcycling history by producing the then fastest 250 cc road bike available, the Mach 1." Frankly, I doubt this, but I'll have to go through my resources to find out one way or another. Since the claim doesn't cite references, it's just that -- a claim -- and has no business being in a WP entry. Bricology 16:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, some crap has worked its way in -- you can attribute most of it to the anonymous editors that fiddle around. The claim about the Mach 1 comes directly from the Ducati Heritage website and is a quote from (I believe) Motociccicolo magazine. Multiple references mention this. izaakb ~talk ~contribs 10:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I've actually sent the Ducati Heritage webmaster two e-mails asking them to correct their misinformation. The first one got a polite response that they would change it. That was a year ago. The second one got no response. The Mach 1 claim is pretty absurd on its face. In 1965, when it was introduced, there was no shortage of fast 250s from MV Agusta, Aermacchi, Honda, Yamaha and others. I find it interesting that Ducati singles never won even one Grand Prix World Championship. Indeed, the first time that Ducati even scored any points was in 1956, with a rather sad 16th place in the 125cc class. In 1958 they did better in that class, reaching 2nd place, but their 250s never managed higher than 18th place throughout the '60s. In Grand Prix racing terms, Ducati was undistinguished throughout the '50s and '60s. That's not to suggest that they can't be good bikes; I had a '69 350 that was very quick, albeit highly temperamental. Bricology 04:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cagiva/TPG history detail

From http://sec.edgar-online.com/2004/06/30/0001156973-04-000783/section5.asp

In 1996, DMH was formed by affiliates of TPG and Deutsche Morgan Grenfell ("DMG") to acquire the Ducati brand name, trademark and related intellectual property rights from Cagiva. Cagiva contributed the other assets and liabilities associated with the Ducati business to DMH in exchange for shares issued to Cagiva representing 49.0% of DMH's total issued and outstanding shares. Following these transactions, TPG and DMG indirectly owned, in the aggregate, 51.0% of the shares of DMH. On July 30, 1998, TPG and DMG through their affiliates, together with a third investor, acquired the remaining 49.0% of the shares of DMH owned by Cagiva.

Who was the third investor? izaakb ~talk ~contribs 11:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moving the Article Title

Shouldn't this article be moved to simply Ducati? When people refer to this company, it is simply by this name. We use Piaggio instead of Piaggio & Co. SpA, likewise MV Agusta instead of MV Agusta Motorcycles SpA. Also, every other Wikipedia uses simply Ducati. I don't know if we need the definition at the header either; Ducati in this sense was simply the founders' surname. Icsunonove 21:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The Piaggio and MV Agusta articles are incorrectly listed then. All companies' entries should be under the full name, with a redirect from the short name. If other Wikipedia articles refer to Ducati, SpA as "Ducati" then perhaps they should be corrected. Also, where is there a definition at the header? I see none, only a reference to the corporate history and then the founders themselves. rgds izaakb ~talk ~contribs 19:21, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the "definition", I'd guess you would want to go back and look at the state of the page the day I posted, eh? My feeling is the Piaggio and MV Agusta pages are listed correctly, and it is this page that should be listed at its most commonly used name. We also don't have Alfa Romeo at Alfa Romeo Automobiles S.p.A. or Harley-Davidson at Harley-Davidson Motor Company. Icsunonove (talk) 20:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)