Talk:Destiny Church, New Zealand

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Make sure you keep a neutral point of view when editing this page and not try to promote or demote the Church Mexaguil 10:21, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Enough is Enough (again)

A quick note as to why I have altered Danomatic's changes.

Two quotes from the cited sources:

"Just after noon thousands of men dressed in black T-shirts marched, rank in file, down Lambton Quay shouting "enough is enough" and punching the air with their fists."

From the Dominion Post article also cited: "Frankly I feel like I'm at a Nuremberg rally," transgender MP Georgina Beyer said as she watched a sea of black-shirted protesters.

Cleary more people than the participants in the haka were wearing black shirts according to these two reliable sources. A quick butchers through the earlier discussion on this page shows why we need to cite sources rather than our own unverifiable experiences or beliefs and not misrepresent what those sources say.

I also removed "conjoured" as IMO it is a weasel word but made explicit reference to the media's comparison of the marchers with Nazis. That seems fair enough. For the same reason I also reverted Danomatic's removal of the comment regarding strict culture which struck me as highly partial given that there can't be a church under the sun that doesn't advocate adherence to its teachings. The point is that Destiny Church is out of the ordinary in this respect, but to avoid any doubt I dug out another reference.

I have also reinstated references to concerns that Destiny Church displays cultlike characteristics. It seems a very, very, VERY partial bit of editing to remove them. They do not claim that Destiny Church *IS* a cult.The Angel of Islington 04:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cult?

I notice that someone changed "church" to "cult" the top of the article, and thankfully this was quickly reverted. I assume this was drive-by vandalism to make a point, but if not, I point out that "cult" is a flexible term and should be used with care. Destiny's control of its members, and the concerns raised by this are discussed in the article and in the attached references. Labelling Destiny as a 'cult' is not helpful.

If anyone feels there is anything wrong with the article in this regard, kindly have the courtesy to discuss proposed changes here before making them. The Angel of Islington 23:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

It's an emotive term that could easily be seen as POV, and the user DID offer reasons, which you have not responded to. Reverting again ~~ Ropata 10:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Membership

A couple of quibbles about this section of the article:

"New members decide to become so by following certain criteria based on biblical principle.." "Members are taught the biblical principle of the tithe of 10 percent of their income"

The above come close to POV comments, and say both too much and too little. Churches sincerely differ on the formulation and application of biblical principles, and Destiny can fairly be said to be out on a limb with much what they say. With respect to the former, why not simply state how new members join the church "in accordance with the the church's interpretation of biblical principle". I'm sure there must be a couple of Destiny members around to flesh out this detail. In the meantime, I suggest deleting this sentence.

With regard to the latter, I suggest the following: "Members are taught to pay tithes in accordance with the church's interpretation of the Bible".

If no one objects to these changes in the next few days I will make them. The Angel of Islington 07:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Enough is Enough march

comments to 210.55.9.65 (a partisan of Destiny Church):

  • you can't call it a "large" with only 10,000
  • it is not possible for the 2004 march in Wellington to have had 10,000 marchers

if the whole church does not have alot more than 10,000 and obviously they don't all live or would travel to Wellington.It is more like the reported 5,000

  • this is the second time you have hidden the fact that Destiny's support is very small. Mexaguil 11:28, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Not necessarily true as there were other church groups present at the rally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.216.30.233 (talk) 09:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC) - and many Christians from other churches 'support' (i.e. approve of) what Destiny stands for, or at least, did at the time.--NZUlysses 10:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The "Enough is Enough" section does not have a single citation, and that is poor. In particular the assertions of violence, the numbers at the march, that the rally attracted 'considerable criticism', that the Destiny marchers were compared to storm troopers, really do need citations. I don't particularly doubt that all those facts are correct, but that is not the criterion for inclusion on Wikipedia.The Angel of Islington 08:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I've removed unreferenced material namely the assertion of violence and material concerning the counter demonstrations. That was after having a good trawl in an attempt to find references myself. People are welcome to add material in - with references. The Angel of Islington 03:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category

I was the editor responsible for removing the 'New Zealand people category', as the Church is not a natural person. It really mucks up the page on which other New Zealanders appear—all of whom are natural persons. I see it has been restored today.

If we began adding in the names of the founders in the index, then let the floodgates open. I am, therefore, removing it, as Brian Tamaki is already there, and a Wikipedia visitor can easily find his/her way to the Destiny Church page through that. I am happy to hear objections. Stombs 11:34, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguate

This page will have to be disambiguated due to the number of worldwide Destiny churches. I note the The New Zealand Destiny Church labels itslf as Destiny Church International. Need to decide on a suitable name for the new page. Alan Liefting 10:49, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Hello, there is a new disambig page :
~~ Ropata 11:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cite or reference?

The article states the following -- ".....Destiny TV was pulled from air in late 2004 due to the governments nervousness of the open promotion of the bible and disagreement with the normalising of homosexual acts". That's a big call, and if no-one produces evidence for it, I will delete it. Moriori 20:54, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

No comment, was the loud reply, OK, I'll remove it, and if anyone replaces it then they will need to provide evidence of its efficacy. Moriori 21:55, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

I have never, since I first found out about Wikipedia when it first started, ever seen as bias an article as this! It appears only one person is heavily involved in writing or commenting on this article and I emplore you follow the NPOV that this site is based upon! --60.234.154.177 06:52, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Well hopefully it's a bit better than it was back then. - Papeschr 04:18, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bishopric

"This is a biblical principle for one who oversees a large number of pastors - which total 28. [4]"

This does not make a lot of sense. The writer is obviusly trying to justify Tamaki basically having had himself enthroned, since there is no-one in the church higher than him.--Hugh7 09:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

No you are incorrect. Bishop Brian Tamaki is directly accountable to Bishop Eddie L. Long of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church of Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. Also Bishop is a title given to an overseer of Churches - see 1 Timothy 3 of the New Testament (ἐπίσκοπος episkopos ep-is'-kop-os From G1909 and G4649 (in the sense of G1983); a superintendent, that is, Christian officer in general charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): - bishop, overseer.) --222.155.91.5 23:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

And who provides the authority to Eddie Long? The church is a farce. In fact the only church that has any 'authority' is the catholic church, and that's only cultural considering the non-existence of god. 60.234.146.211 01:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

lol that's rather P.O.V.! Perhaps you have a Catholic background but Protestant Christians, 'culturally', disagree that only the Roman Catholic church has 'authority'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.216.30.233 (talk) 09:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

This article is seriously unbalanced. I see it has a link to it's entry at cults.co.nz but has no info on it's similarities to a cult inside the article itself. I hope to ammend this, but in the meantime I am tagging it POV. Glen Stollery (My contribs) (talk) 11:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good Glen, have you been to a Destiny church yourself? I ask because I haven't, most of my additions are based on gleanings from the news, from the Web, and from Tamaki TV. A report from a mystery worshipper is here. I hesitate to call the church a cult, but it has many of the same attributes of one: larger-than-life dictator in charge, high-pressure tactics, isolation from the community, strict control over members, but the thing that appears least Christian (from my POV) is its focus on money and apparent lack of grace.Perhaps a new subsection could be added to the article discussing this stuff. Unfortunately the church has played a vocal part in some divisive issues, so NPOV may be a challenge. Cheers, - Papeschr 04:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

I personally know a pastor who attended this march - he said the police called this march, and the one Family march in Ackland in March 2005 (and wrongly labelled a "Destiny" march as they only participated in it), very well organised and disciplined. The real people haters were the gay community of Auckland who slashed effigies of Bishop Brian Tamaki and invaded the march for traditional family values with nudity and foul language (i was there!). These so -called "blackshirts" do look very mean indeed - many are, after all, saved out of a hard life of violence but to see their spirit-filled discipline in the face of homosexuals shouting abuse inches from their faces, was amazing! Only in little insulated New Zealand would anyone call such a church and their message a cult. Most modern, free countries now have churches bigger than 5,000 members and it really is no big deal. New Zealand government is very domineering and high handed, despite looking very liberal, and they have a massive homosexual agenda so they have personally been behind much of the attack on Destiny. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User: 210.55.230.123 on May 28 06 at 10:16

I think that you have been mislead. In Wellington, the pro-Civil Union marchers were surrounded by Destiny marchers and many were beaten. Destiny marchers would come among the GLBT people and punch, push and spit on us. They were very violent and intimidating, and there are lots of photos, including some published in the GLBT media, or Destiny marchers engaging in these acts. In Auckland, the few GLBT people that counter rallied were pelted with eggs, abused and insulted. The very fact that the march in Auckland was to denounce our very existence is provoking and intimidating; GLBT people do not hold rallies against Destiny (unless Destiny have started one themselves). To see homosexuals beaten, belittled, dehumanised, spat on, defaced and defiled by thugs who claim to be closer to God than us is so anger provoking I'm surprised that gays and lesbians didn't retaliated more than we did.
The fact that you speak of a 'homosexual agenda' shows what a nasty little ignorant bigot you yourself truly are.
In future, sign your posts. Enzedbrit 23:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The above writter is either an outright lier or was not at the above mentioned march. I was there personally and can testify that there was no such altercations except the throwing of eggs which were aimed at Bishop Tamaki by members of the GLBT community. The police, who were also there in considerable numbers did infact comment on how orderly the members of the destiny march in Wellington were. In the Auckland march they did not arrest anyone from the destiny movement but did infact arrested several members of the GLBT community for indecent exposure and assault. So get your facts straight, or perhaps more closer to the bone... Stop trying to misinform the members of the public and while your at it stop trying to twist the truth. --222.155.91.5 00:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I was not in Auckland - many of my friends were. I take their word and the report of the media over Destiny any day. I can also attest to the disgusting display of misinformed young people supporting Destiny, the appalling and insulting heckling of MP Georgina Beyer, having been in Wellington, seen the violence, seen the bruises, and of course, the results of the thuggish Destiny churchers later that night as they went fag-bashing on Courtenay and Cuba. There was a counter rally in Auckland, at which Destiny supporters and loveless "Christians" turned up to preach that homosexuals are sick, degenerate. These people were not harmed in the slightest. One forgets that after centuries of violent oppression, legalised discrimination, and in many countries the death penalty, GLBT people have every right to be angry and in New Zealand compose themselves immacuately considering what we still experience. Destiny is currently the biggest provocator of hatred in this country and has been for quite some time; a violent and dangerous ideology that misleads thousands, preaches a false Christianity, mocking other forms as being impure whilst at the same time embracing pagan Christmas and Easter, and filling the coffers of Bishop Brian. I suggest to you rather that you get your facts straight. And sign your postings. Enzedbrit 05:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Please people, try to maintain calm here. It's not going to help going at each other's throats in the talk page. And Enzedbrit, don't worry about people not signing their names, try a reverse DNS lookup. Check it here, [1] contingency40 09:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] hearsay

in light of the disputed nature of this article, i have identified two statements that need citations, or deletions. feel free to point out more. if no citations are forthcoming, they will be deleted. Xcomradex 10:41, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Many comments about Destiny's Marches have been given 'citation' requirements. This event is still fresh in many minds. To put a citatation means that not to have one should result in the comment's removal. This is ineffective, as it would require trawling through masses of information to find a fact to back this up. In the future, when witnesses are all dead and gone, a fact would have more standing. Otherwise, it's like requesting a fact to prove what the weather is. Enzedbrit 20:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Be that as it may, the criterion for inclusion on Wikipedia is attribution, see: Wikipedia:Attribution, and I quote from that page: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true. Wikipedia is not the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments". If I find material that can verify the facts relating to the march then I shall add references, but we need to get this clear first. The Angel of Islington 08:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title

Why not just Destiny Church? It redirects here anyway, and there is no disambiguation note. Richard001 09:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Destiny Church used to be a disambig page listing other "destiny churches" but this is the only one with a wikipedia article. Maybe there should be a Destiny Church (disambiguation) ?? ~~ Ropata 10:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I've added a disambiguation link. Are the other churches connected in any way? If they are of the same level of notability the disambiguation should be moved to destiny church, if not perhaps deleted and this moved there. Richard001 01:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The "other" Destiny churches are mainly in the British Isles, but are apparently blissfully unaware of Destiny NZ. The Brit versions have no wikipedia articles that I know of, but they are probably bigger than Destiny NZ. I reckon just keep things the way they are, until someone puts together an article about the British churches. Cheers. ~~ Ropata 01:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Answers Please

Who is the person who removes all the bad news about Destiny Church, it seams that some is trying to protect the church could people please leave changes to the text in place and stop trying to make destiny out to be a normal church. 10% is what they ask of you from your every day wage and Brian Tamaki has a lot of money. That is fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.169.220.139 (talk) 02:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:NPOV, and WP:CITE, and you'll understand why your changes are reverted.-gadfium 05:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Gadfium Amit@Talk 10:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)