Talk:Demographics of Israel

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel Portal
Demographics of Israel is part of WikiProject Israel, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, visit the project page where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Israel articles.
Project Israel To Do (Drop-Down Menu):
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Top This article has been rated as top-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Early discussions

Is there a reason we give non-Jewish population change numbers in annual percents, and Jewish change numbers in octoannual percents? It's very confusing to compare. (My reading of our numbers is that the non-Jewish population has been increasing faster; is that correct?) DanKeshet 14:42 Feb 15, 2003 (UTC)

The non-Jewish population has a much higher birthrate; the Jewish population has only maintained a higher growth rate because of immigration. The birthrate among most Jews in Israel and internationally is actually quite low (typically 1.4), the Jewish birthrate in Israel (~2.6?) is only above the replacement-rate because the Jews of local Arab origins maintain an extremely high birthrate (6 or 7?) not unlike the Amish. So when you take religion out of the picture, Israel is steadily becoming `Arab` again.

"While the non-Jewish minority grows at an average rate of 4.9% per year, the Jewish population has increased by more than 27% (3% per year) since 1989 as a result of massive immigration to Israel, primarily from the republics of the former Soviet Union. Since 1989, nearly 841,000 such immigrants have arrived in Israel, making this the largest wave of immigration since independence. In addition, almost 20,000 members of the Ethiopian Jewish community have immigrated to Israel, 14,000 of them during the dramatic May 1991 Operation Solomon airlift."

Gaaak. Surely these detailed statistics don't belong at the beginning of the page?

The paragraphs about Israeli dance and art are not relevant to an article on demographics. They should be moved to Israeli culture or somewhere else.

Don't be timid. Go for it. Do it!! Unless someone convincingly argues otherwise in the next few units of time.

" Official figures do not exist as to the number of atheists or otherwise non-affiliated individuals, who may comprise up to a quarter of the population referred to as Jewish."

How is this possible? Everyone in Israel is officially classified as Jewish or non-Jewish and required to carry identity cards showing this information. Keith from Calgary 06:40, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Identity cards don't show religious belief. Atheist Jews and religious Jews get the same cards. However, there are opinion polls about religious belief in Israel; if I come across one I'll include the figures. --Zero 09:38, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
But they are officially classified for purposes of the marriage laws - surely there would be "official figures" available.
Hundreds of thousands of people immigrated to Israel under the Law of Return but do not qualify as Jews in Israel. Where are they in the ethnic and religious classifications? I suspect they are included in the 80.1% Jewish religion and 80.1% Jewish ethnicity classes, even though many of them are Orthodox Christians or unafilliated. Is this correct? ... After a bit more research I see that all this stuff comes straight fron the US Central Intelligence Agency, which in turn obtains it's "facts" from the Israeli government. So much for NPOV. Keith from Calgary 06:40, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Non-Jews who immigrate to Israel as family members of Jews get an id card showing "Christian" or "Muslim" (if s/he is one of those), or with that field left blank or marked as none (if not). They won't normally get "Jewish" unless they claim to be Jewish. A relative who claims to be Jewish can probably get a card with "Jewish" on it. However, if that relative wants to get married, buried, etc, having "Jewish" on their id card does not guarantee they will be treated as a Jew. If any suspicions are raised, that person's background can be investigated and it is quite possible for them to find themselves unable to legally marry in Israel at all, or to be buried in a Jewish cemetary. Cyprus does good business from Israeli couples who go there to get married because they aren't allowed to be married in Israel or because they are secular and don't want a religious ceremony. Such overseas marriages are at least recognised by Israel when they return. --Zero 23:08, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Is there a "field" for "religion" or "natioinality" or both?24.64.166.191 08:04, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You said above that "Identity cards don't show religious belief". But regardless of the id cards, people are classified for purposes of marriage, burial, etc. Why are no "official figures" available? and to repeat my question, "Where are they in the ethnic and religious classifications?" Keith from Calgary 06:40, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 95%
male: 97%
female: 93% (1992 est.) I think the definition of "literacy" does not fit the numbers: According to the age structure, the definition must be wrong. As 28% of the Israeli population is below 14, it is impossible that 95% of the population is older than 15 and can write. I think the definition of analphabetism could be "age 15 and over and can read and write". If nobody objects, I will change the definition. --zeno 16:03, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Page is getting dated

This page is getting dated. I would like to update it based on numbers at Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. For example, total population:

1996,5757.90
1997,5900.00
1998,6041.40
1999,6209.10
2000,6369.30
2001,6508.80
2002,6631.10 (this is the figure given on this page)
2003,6749.00

Jewish population:

1996,4616.10
1997,4701.60
1998,4785.10
1999,4872.80
2000,4955.40
2001,5025.00
2002,5094.20
2003,5161.50
Sounds like a good idea to me. By the way, you might want to get a userid. Jayjg 04:47, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If I do this it will be controversial. Israel Central Bureau of Statistics includes settlers in the population. They also include tourists (mostly Jewish) but exclude foreign workers (non-Jewish). They also include anyone who has Israeli citizenship or permanent residency who has been in Israel in the last 12 months. They also include "non-Arab Christians" as "Jews and others". The object is clearly to inflate the "Jewish" proportion of the population. If I update this page I will use the standard definitions of population.
"Settlers" are citizens of Israel; I don't see any particular issues with any of the other definitions either, and don't think most other countries do it much differently. Please get as userid. Jayjg 23:46, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Most civilized countries define "population" as the number of people who are actually in the country on census day regardless of legal status (or race, religion or ethnicity). By this definition the Jewish population of Israel is declining and Jews are already a minority in Israel and the (occupied) territories.
"Civilized countries" is a highly POV term. Most countries do not include many people, including guest workers, tourists, illegal immigrants, etc. as part of the population, regardless of whether or not they are in the country on census day. This article is not about the demographics of the territories, other articles already describe that. Jayjg 15:54, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
When the ICBS collects population numbers for regions and towns in Israel, they are based on the number of people who actually live there. These numbers are used by governments and companies to plan roads, shopping centres, etc. to accommodate people who actually live there. If you add up these numbers you get a 50% Halacha Jewish population of Eretz Israel. To get the 80% number you have to add the settlers and emigrants and anyone who once had permanent residence status and the "others" (Russian Christians) and subtract non-Jewish foreign workers. I'm not sure about the tourists, I suspect they assume they are all Jewish and make a generous estimate of their numbers to boost the Jewish %.24.64.166.191 06:44, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The problems with ethnic categorization in a state that discriminates by religion

  • 1. The ethnic categories section categorizes Israelis as either Jews (80.9%) or Arabs (19.1%) but Jews and Arabs are not mutually exclusive. Arab is an ethnicity or nationality but Judaism is a religion, not a nationality. It is possible to be both an Arab and a Jew (as mentioned later in the article).
    • Jew is an ethnicity much like Arab (as mentioned in the Jew article. Only revisionist deniers wishing to deligitimize the identity of Jews claim otherwise. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Judaism is a religion like many others, not a nationality. Only Zionists and Nazis consider Jews a race or nationality; hardly a coincidence that these racist concepts have common 19th century European origins. --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Judaism is a religion, and Jews are an ethnicity or people, like many others, despite your attempts to deligimitize their peoplehood. The hypocrisy of crying that "Palestinians" are a people and complaining that others are trying to deligitimize their peoplehood, while trying to do the same to Jews, is amusing. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You need to go to the Ethnic groups article and change the definition: "An ethnic group is a culture or subculture whose members are readily distinguishable by outsiders based on traits originating from a common racial, national, linguistic, or religious source." so it includes Jews. I suggest replacing "or" with "and/or" in a few places.24.64.166.191 04:28, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
You are showing your true colours. What do you mean exactly by "peoplehood" and legitimacy of peoplehood? Give some examples besides Jewish.24.64.166.191 19:32, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
"For a complete list of Jewish ethnic groups, see Jewish ethnic divisions." Then should I change this to "sub-ethnic groups" or "ethnic sub-groups" ?24.64.166.191 04:28, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
  • 2. The figure for "Jewish" includes immigrants from the former USSR who are either Christian or other religion (or none). Does this make sense? Russian Christians are counted as Jews in Israel?
"Note: The figure for "Jewish" includes people who are not classified as "Jewish" by religion. These are mainly immigrants from the former USSR which are either Christian or of unclassified religion." Would it not be more clear, consise and accurate to leave out this note and just say "Non-Arab 80.9%" and also "During the 1990s, the Non-Arab population growth rate was about 3%"?24.64.166.191 18:57, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I made this suggestion and waited a few days and had no comments so I went ahead and made the change. Now I see someone has reverted it, without any explanation on this talk page. Will the vandal please identify him/herself?24.64.166.191 07:28, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
    • I don't know how the counting works. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
First time you admit ignorance. The description of the ridiculous method was in the Israeli government census page. --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'll look if I have time. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 3. "Traditionally" Jews are divided into Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Yemenite Jews. What tradition is this exactly? An Israeli tradition? An Ashkenazi tradition? More specifics here would be useful.
    • Actually there are two or three major distinctions, Ashkenazim and Sepharadim, or perhaps Ashkenazim, Sepharadim, and Mizrahim. It is a Jewish tradition, based on the different histories of the groups. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You have added no information. It doesn't look like much of a tradition if there are 2 or 3 categories. Which is it? When and where did this Jewish "tradition" arise? Is it an 18th century European construct, (no doubt). --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
LOL! "No doubt". And you have the audacity to claim that I fail to "admit ignorance". The distinctions relate to origins, liturgy, customs, Hebrew dialects, legal codes, etc., and date at least as far back as the 11th century when the distinctions became more pronounced. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 4. Why are Yemenite Jews distinct from Sephardim?
    • Because their ancestors never lived in Spain. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The Sephardic Jews are descended from the same Arab Jews as the Yemenite Jews, presumably.--Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's not wise to presume. All Jews descended from the same origins. Yemenite Jews have their own unique history, as do Sephardi Jews and others. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 5. Why are African Jews Sephardim except for South African Jews who are Ashkenazi?
    • South African Jews descended from Lithuanian Ashkenazi Jews. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is new information that could go in the article. When did they emigrate and why? --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Persecution, opportunity; same as all Russian Jews. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 6. Why are European Jews Ashkenazim except for Spain and Portugal Jews who are Sephardim?
    • Ashkenzim went through Rome north through Italy into Germany, and from there eastwards. Sepharadim went through North Africa to Spain with the Arabs/Muslims, then were expelled centuries later to various places. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Good answer. So you will agree that there are European Jews, right?--Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In what sense? There are Jews who live in Europe now. Jews have lived in various parts of Europe for at least 2,000 years. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 7. Why are Jews from Islamic countries called Oriental Jews except for Jews from Yemen who are Yemenite?
    • Yemenite Jews are also Oriental. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Now we are getting somewhere. The categories are false distinctions. --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why? Yemenite Jews are one of the Oriental Jewish groups. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 8. What is the difference between an Oriental Jew and a Sephardic Jew?
    • Their ancestors never lived in Spain. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Good answer. So you will agree that there arre Arab Jews, right? --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Arab Jews in what sense? There are Jews who live in Arab countries now. Jews have lived in various Arab countries or regions for at least 2,000 years. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • 9. What do you get when you cross a Sephardim and and Askenazi?
    • A mix. It happens quite regularly. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Combining false categories results in a "mix". If you are going to maintain your labels on people, you are going tohave to do better than that. If you fail to keep people in their ethnic categories, you may begin to treat Sephardim as if they are equal to Ashkenazi and non-Jews as if they are equal to "mixes".--Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Until recently the groups lived in distinct areas, and mixing was quite rare. In the mid and late 20th century most of the groups emigrated to mixed areas, and naturally individuals from the different groups started marrying each other. I can't make heads or tails of your last statement, it seems to reflect some sort of unclear political gibberish. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I am very interested in what would be the intermarriage (not to mention the unmarried stuff) and assimiliation % over the preceding centuries. Since Jews were heavily involved in trade and commerce I thought they would be attracted to cosmopolitan trading centres where opportunities for "mixing" would be plentiful.24.64.166.191 07:28, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • 10. What's the difference between an Israeli Arab and a Jew from an Arab country that emigrates to Israel?
    • Their ancestry and history. Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What is the "ancestry and history" of "Israeli Arabs". These articles are strangely silent on this subject. Could they be descended from the lower class Jews who remained in Palestine after the Romans killed or expelled 25% of the "Jewish" population (the rebellious religious & political elite) in 135?
Yes, that and the fact that the Jew from any Arab country (or anywhere in the world) is granted more rights in Israeli occupied Palestine than an indigenous Israeli Arab who is not a Jew. (Military service, education, jobs, loans, etc, etc). --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Nonsense not supported by the facts. By the way, Israeli Arabs also serve in the IDF. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

These are some of the questions raised by the false categories created by the racist state of Israel.--Alberuni 23:59, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, those are just questions raised by people who are ignorant of Jews and falsely characterize Israel as racist. Israel didn't invent these categories, and only revisionist deniers who wish to deligitimize the identity of Jews describe them as "false". Jayjg 04:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There is no way to delegitimize the identity of Jews. The Jewish identity will always exist as a religion. In fact, Israel does reinforce the categories of Jew versus Arab as if they are mutually exclusive, which they are not, and this categorization is the basis for the discriminatory and oppressive policies of the Jewish state. The Jewish supremacist state policies of Zionist Israel are clearly discriminatory against non-Jews. To claim otherwise is willful ignorance of the privileged class. Zionism is more damaging to Jews than any non-Jew or anti-Semite can be. Of course, fanatic Zionists can never accept this responsibility and will continue pursuing their ideology of Jewish supremacism until Israel totally destroys itself and many of its Jews along with it. --Alberuni 05:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Another revisionist denial screed displaying ignorance of Jews and a blatant attempt to deligitimize the identity of Jews. Wikipedia articles are for facts, not for spreading your extremist political beliefs. Jayjg 20:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The reason Jew and Arab are frequently considered mutually exclusive is because many Jews from Arab countries are offended when referred to as "Arabs" or "Arab Jews." I have personally seen this phenomenon in the U.S., Canada, Israel, and Germany. (Is that an acceptable citation?) Why are they offended? Is it because they are embarrassed to be associated with the Arab countries rift with tyranny, the countries that, in many cases, these Jews were expelled from or forced to flee for their own safety, leaving behind all their property? Because the society they were a part of for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, suddenly turned on them in the 20th century? (I phrase these as questions because I hope for an honest, reasonable discussion about it. "Palestinian Jew" was also once a common term, referring to Jews living in British-Mandate Palestine, but would now offend them.)
As for claiming that the policies of the State of Israel are discriminatory against non-Jews, I have to disagree. Legally, Jewish citizens (with very few exceptions) are required to serve in the military. Non-Jewish citizens are not required (though many volunteer). Sounds to me like Czarist Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonist). Why don't you argue that it dsicriminates against the Jews? I'll get a username soon. Till then, I'll identify myself as ZYB so that if I post again, you'll know whom it's coming from. For now, my main point is that the people who would be classifed as both Jews and Arabs are themselves the ones who don't want both designations. Perhaps this is why we distinguish between Ashkanazic and Sephardic Jews when discussing ethnicity/culture. There was mention above of European Jews and Arab Jews, and, while the analysis (Yemenite vs. Sephardic; Spain & Portugal vs. Germany & France) may be accurate, the parties themselves might prefer "Ashkenazic" to "European" and "Sephardic" to "Arab," even if the names aren't always analagous (i.e. "Arab" would not include Iranian, Indian, or Central Asian, while "Sephardic" is often intended to include those groups. Jews indigenous to Jerusalem and Safed, however, would be included in "Arab" and are not always included in "Sephardic"). Does this resolve the disagreements while avoiding (most) political rhetoric?

[edit] Link is dead

The population demographic link is dead yet some anon keeps updating Israeli population in the Occupied Territories. [1] --Alberuni 04:05, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Nationality

"noun: Israeli(s) adjective: Israeli"

This is incorrect. I will change it to 19.1% Arab nationality, some% Jewish nationality.24.64.166.191 05:07, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My revert

I reverted for reasons I explained at Talk:Israel. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:56, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Adding contradict and cleanup-date templates

The section with the contradict template clearly states two differing statistics for the origins of the Jewish population. The article is generally of low quality with a lot of tiny sections and bad organization.

Edit: the Ethnic Groups section is the self-contradicting one, but I moved the template because it ran into the menu on the side.

--Eitan1989 01:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC)ţ

[edit] Groups of people in Israel

The section where it says "...of Israel's 6.9 million people, 76.2% were Jews, 19.5% Arabs..."

I think it should include somewhere that the Arabs are gentiles (Muslims, Christians, Druzes) because obviously there are Israeli-Arab Jews, and they should fall under "Jews", but they are still Arabs at the same time, so they would also fall under "Arabs", and that doesn't work out.

There are Jews from Arab countries but, apart from a very small (and recent) minority, they never identified as Arabs as were never seen as Arabs by the Arabs themselves. Benjil 10:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The non-Jewish foreign worker community

How large is the non-Jewish foreign worker community in Israel?

Don't know, but it's incorrect to call them "immigrants" - "Due to agricultural and construction labor immigrants many signs in rural areas carry Thai and Chinese notices." Of course they are not racially qualified to immigrate to the Jewish state- they are temporary foreign workers who have no possibility of getting citizenship (this would require Thai and Chinese foreign workers being allowed to convert to orthodox judaism, which has never happened - correct me if i'm wrong). Fourtildas 02:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
The foreign worker community is currently around 150,000 after reaching 300,000 a few years ago (legal and illegal together). There is no "racial" qualification to immigrate to israel as "jewish" is not a race, and yes there have been cases of foreign workers converting to Judaism. But you can also become an Israeli citizen by way of regular naturalization like in any country, without being Jewish at all. You need at least 5 (or 10 - need to check) years of residence in the country and the approval of the Interior Ministry. Benjil 08:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Economist reference?

There is this paragraphi in the article:

However, an alternative study by 'The Economist' came up with very different statistics, maintaining that 83.5% of Israelis practice Judaism. More than 31.3% of those believe that Israel was God's gift to a chosen people.

I was unable to find anything confirming this. Can someone provide a reference?

[edit] Fouled up population growth rates?

overall: 1.18% (2006 est.) During the 1990s, the Jewish population growth rate was about 3% per year, as a result of massive immigration to Israel, primarily from the republics of the former Soviet Union. There is also a high population growth rate among certain Jewish groups, especially adherents of Haredi Judaism. Currently however, the growth rate of the Israeli Muslim population, at 3.3%, is more than double that of the Israeli Jewish population at 1.4%

The above quote says the Jews are increasing at 1.4% per year and the Muslims at 3.3% per year. Normally, the growth rate for the state of Israel should be somewhere between the two values. Instead, we're told it's only 1.18%. Am I missing something? Bogmih 18:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


I removed the line "due to a drop in Arab fertility" in the Population growth rate section. The reason why Arab population growth rate has dropped in recent years is probably due to life style changes more than any medical reason. If someone would like to comment about Arab vs. Jewish fertility, they should provide appropriate references.

First please sign your post using ~ 4 times. Regarding the reasons of the drop, from what I understand, the reasons are: 1. the education level of young muslim women is increasing ; they are also starting to work more. 2. the massive cuts in child allocations since 2004. Benjil 09:22, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] esperanto in schools

many schools offer [...] Esperanto.

They do? Surely you jest.

[edit] non jewish eastern europeans

I continually hear about the phenomenon of non-jewish eastern europeans(primarily russians) gwetting into Israel to the extent that there are several hundred thousand christian or secular russians/ex-soviet in Israel. Can anyone who knows verify this or explain how and why that's occuring. Israel has so many demogrpahic peculiarities...

I have 2 more questions as well.

Is there a small Armenian minority in Jerusalem?

Have any Western(or even non-western, yet non-Arab I suppose)Christians immigrated to Israel to be near Christian holy sites? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.150.56.120 (talk) 08:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes there is a small Armenian minority in Jerusalem, I believe about 1,500. They have maintained a presence there for centuries. For information on Eastern Europeans (non Jewish) in Israel, see http://migration.ucdavis.edu/MN/more.php?id=1299_0_5_0 --Shamir1 19:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Haaretz article - Israel Jew population up 300.000 in 2007?

"The world Jewish population in 2007 is estimated at 13.2 million people, a rise of some 200,000 over 2006, according to a Jewish People Policy Planning Institute report published Sunday.
In the past year, the number of Diaspora Jews shrank by 100,000, while Israel's Jewish population rose by 300,000. Israel is now the home of 41 percent of worldwide Jewry, the report said."
[ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/942009.html]
This is four times the growth rate for 2006, is there any truth to this article? Fourtildas (talk) 05:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] January 2008.... Huge Huge surprise

See thisThe CBS Israel says that For the month of January in 2008, Of all the births i.e out of 13,216 births, 10,257 births were to Jewish/Other mothers. That is 77.61% of the total. The figure was 70.10% in 2000, 73.05% in 2005, 73.71% in 2006 and 74.31% in 2007. For the first time births to Muslim mothers fell below 20%. (Now 19.59%). Compared to 2007 January Jewish births increased by 6.5% and Muslim births decreased by 9.1%. Just in one single year. Druze births decreased by 8.5%. In 2007, there were 4,482 births to Halachically non-Jewish Russians. Their birth rate also dropped 4.25% for non religious ones and 14.3% for Christians. It is possible that by 2009 or 2010 over 80% of the births will be to Jewish/Russian mothers. (Small number of Jewish women married to Arabs living in Arab towns are counted as Jews.). This is a huge surprise unless there is some statistical error. Axxn (talk) 17:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Why is it surprising? it seems to me that whats happening is what would be expected considering: 1)Muslim birthrate is getting closer to the Jewish one. 2)the fall in Muslim birthrate is mirroring that of neighboring Muslim countries.--Towerdefence (talk) 16:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

It's in part the result of cuts to child benefits in recent years - discussed in today's HaAretz here. (Yes, Shahar Ilan has an axe to grind on this one - but he's right on the numbers). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Historic population development: worth a table?

A table of historic population sizes might be a useful addition, going back to say 1900, and showing how the population has grown decade by decade.

The table might also include a column linking to relevant major migration events in each decade -- eg influx of Jews from Arab lands, release of the Jews from the former Soviet Union, etc. Jheald (talk) 10:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arabs section

I'm at a loss to understand recent resistance by Canadian Monkey (talk · contribs) to the following material, firstly:

In the current and most prevalent demographic dichotomy, "Arab Israelis" are understood to comprise inhabitants of Israel of Arab cultural and/or linguisitc heritage of any religious tradition, including most numerously Muslims, Christians, and Druze, but to the exclusion of Jews indigenous to Israel/Palestine of recent Arabic cultural and/or linguistic heritage or (of greater numeric importance) Jewish immigrants from elsewhere in the Arab world (or the Israeli-born descendants of either) who are accounted for solely as Jews along with all other Israeli Jews of any Jewish background.

This is surely manifestly true. The Israeli statistics (eg Israel in figures) classify anybody with Jewish status as "Jewish" - regardless of recent Arabic cultural, genetic and/or linguistic heritage. As there is no double-counting, such individuals are therefore not counted as "Arab" - again, regardless of recent Arabic cultural, genetic and/or linguistic heritage.

It surely is reasonable to note this, to note the sense in which "Arab" is being used in these figures.

Secondly

Arabs citizens of Israel are those Arab-identified inhabitants who remained within Israel's borders during the 1948 Palestinian exodus following the establishment of the state of Israel, including those born within the state borders subsequent to this time, as well as those few who had left during the exodus (or their descendants) who have since re-entered by means accepted as lawful residence by the Israeli state (family reunifications, though this has now been curbed by a recent Supreme Court of Israel decision).
The origin of Israel's Arab-identified inhabitants as autochthonous to Israel/Palestine is a highly politicized issue whose answer is multifaceted and ultimately involves factors including migrations, miscegenation, assimilation, religious conversions, language shift and ethnic identity.

The first paragraph is simply a straight definition of who is considered an Arab. Okay, perhaps the comment about the family reunification is maybe a little snarky (I didn't write any of this), but on the other hand it is factual: see Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law.

The second paragraph notes the difficulties of talking about a population's origins, when there are 14 centuries of history to consider, including migration, intermarriage and religious conversion. It correctly notes that this is a highly politicised issue, with some keen to present the Arab population to the maximum degree as incomers, others to the maximum degree as descendents of an original indigenous population going back essentially to the earliest Canaanites.

Is anyone (Canadian Monkey?) seriously suggesting that what is being said here is anything other than self-evidently true?

Now compare that paragraph to the alternative being canvassed:

Arabs in Israel include descendants of those invaded in 613 and recent 20th century immigrants lived in the land of today's Israel (it was then recognized as Land of Israel) and stayed within Israel's borders during the 1948 Palestinian exodus... Arabs in Israel also include the descendants of those refuges who left the country and returned to Israel soon afterwards.

This is a paragraph which characterises the Arabs in terms of invaders and immigrants, of a land which ought to be thought of as Eretz Israel.

It's expressly following somebody's agenda - an agenda which is loaded, WP:UNDUE and POV-driven. Not acceptable here. Jheald (talk) 19:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Jheald, I saw several paragraphs being removed by an administrator, claiming it was original resource. I subsequently saw you restoring that same text, with an edit summary that said it appeared to be "appropriately cited". I checked the text in question, and without making any judgement with regards to its veracity, clearly saw that most of it was indeed unsourced and uncited, contrary to your edit summary. I proceeded to remove the part that was unsourced, while retaining the parts that were sourced. You then re-inserted the entire text, no longer claiming it is sourced, but stating it is "better" in some ways, or "uncontested". Putting aside these changing pretexts, when an editor removes unsourced material, you may not place it back, still unsourced, simply claiming it is better or "uncontested". Now that you've begun actually discussing your changes on Talk, I have looked at the text in question more closely. I have no objection to the first paragraph, that discusses the term "Arab Israelis". I have a problem with the subtle and not-so subtle POV-pushing in the second paragraph, which you concede is snarky (yet insist on including it). Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Many of the formulations in this section were introduced by User:Al-Andalus a few days ago; he appears to believe that in Israel Jews can be Arabs and Arabs can be Jews and was trying to foist this on the Israel page as well. Given that this user appears not to provide sources for anything he/she adds (and declines to provide edit summaries, despite a polite request), I'd be tempted to revert to a version prior to his/her numerous contributions and start from a cleaner slate. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, maybe not - prior to edits by User:Al-Andalus, we find only a short paragraph about Arab invaders and immigrants, and I agree with Jheald that this is pure POV. So perhaps some of what User:Al-Andalus did was useful, though it also contains a different sort of POV. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the following commentary as unsourced, POV original research:

The origin of Israel's Arab-identified inhabitants as autochthonous to Israel/Palestine is a highly politicized issue whose answer is multifaceted and ultimately involves factors including migrations, miscegenation, assimilation, religious conversions, language shift and ethnic identity. In the current and most prevalent demographic dichotomy, "Arab Israelis" are understood to comprise inhabitants of Israel of Arab cultural and/or linguisitc heritage of any religious tradition, including most numerously Muslims, Christians, and Druze, but to the exclusion of Jews indigenous to Israel/Palestine of recent Arabic cultural and/or linguistic heritage or (of greater numeric importance) Jewish immigrants from elsewhere in the Arab world (or the Israeli-born descendants of either) who are accounted for solely as Jews along with all other Israeli Jews of any Jewish background.

I've also removed the following:

Among the Arab Israeli population, a subgroup not differentiated by religion, but by lifestyle and origin, are the Bedouins. Religiously, they are accounted for within the 82.9% deemed Muslim Arab Israelis, as the Bedouin are also both Muslim and Arab. However, they are differentiated from the vast majority of Muslim Arab Israelis, and Arab Israelis in general, in that they are more securely known to be Arab both in ethnic identity (language, culture and customs) but also by ancestry (that is, ancestry tracing to Arabia, outside Israel/Palestine). Prior to the establishment of Israel in 1948, there were an estimated 65,000-90,000 Bedouin living in the Negev.[1] Only 11,000 remained after Israel's establishment. These were relocated by the Israeli government in the 1950s and 1960s to an area called the "siyag" (or "closure") made up of relatively infertile land in the northeastern Negev comprising 10% of the Negev desert.[1]

Aside from the original research issues, this article is about the current demographics of Israel, not the history of the Bedouin in Israel.

I've also replaced the bizarre "Arab-identified inhabitants" circumlocution with "Arabs". This article should not be a platform for extreme minority theories. And finally, I've added material on the Druze who, in fact, often do not self-identity as Arab. Jayjg (talk) 00:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)