Talk:Dealey Plaza

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Merged content of 'Dealey Plaza grassy knoll' to here. Much of the 'grassy knoll' article content relies on or is aided by the Dealey Plaza content being on the same page for context. Skybunny 00:50, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

As of November 2003, investigations and scientific testing and recreations into the circumstances of John F. Kennedy's death have not settled the question of who killed him. Looking at the three most recent 2003 polls directly implies this. An "ABC tv news" poll reflected that just 32 percent (plus or minus 3 percent) of Americans believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in the assassination of John F. Kennedy, while 68 percent do not believe Oswald acted alone. [1] The "Discovery Channel" poll reveals that only 21% believe Oswald acted alone, while 79% do not believe Oswald acted alone. [2] The "History Channel" poll details that only 17% of individuals believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in the assassination of John F. Kennedy, while 83 percent do not believe Oswald acted alone. [3]

This is the poll info I removed. I have no objection to its content or presentation, but I don't think that the Dealey Plaza entry is the proper place for it. I've preserved it in case someone wants to stick it in John F. Kennedy assassination or some other appropriate entry. Gamaliel 17:50, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] "North Grassy Knoll"

Is this how it should be termed in the article? I have never heard it called anything but the "Grassy Knoll"; I don't even particularly remember there being another one in Dealy Plaza, and if there is I've never heard it related to the assassination in any way. Is this an attempt to disambiguate something that wasn't ever really ambiguous? I'm leaving it for now but think it needs to be discussed as a minimum.

Rlquall 15:34, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Going to Dealey

Hey I'll be heading to DP early next month to see this place where history was made with my own eyes. Is there anything special I should not miss while in Dallas vis a vis the JFK assasination?Ramsquire 22:56, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Grassy Knoll

I redirected the page grassy knoll to this page because that article and the section of this article called "Grassy Knoll" were identical. Also, the links on that page are included in this article as well. No need for it to have it's own page. --The_stuart 19:00, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV stuff

I have a problem with the subsequent edits to my inclusion of additional information on the Dictabelt recording originally alleged to be of gunshots of the JFK assassination. You removed the cruicial information that the crosstalk heard on the recording proved that the recording had been made a minute after the assassination, probably because that so completely undermines the claim that the recording contains gunshots that the conspiracy buffs' claims must simply fail.

I understand the Wiki NPOV policy. However, there are some topics, and the JFK assassination is one of them, where some people will never agree with conclusively proven neutral facts because they totally undermine their preconceived points of view. Unless you can seriously question the factual statement that the tape crosstalk exists and proves that the recording was made a minute after the assassination, I challenge your removal of this information. User: Karn, 23 Dec 2004

  • Your original edit was "over the top" without enough foundation. What you have added now gives more foundation for your claims of being proven - though a source more official than "an amateur..." would be much better for a claim of proven. This detail should be in the House Select Committee on Assassinations article -- and this whole discussion belongs more there than here. Perhaps there should also be an article on Dealey Plaza Dictabelt.

--JimWae 18:27, 2004 Dec 23 (UTC)

There is: Dictabelt evidence relating to the assassination of John F. Kennedy, though I've thought about folding that into the HSCA article. Gamaliel 18:55, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)


  • I think folding these articles together would be a good idea. There's a lot of redundant info spread across those articles now. --User:Karn 24 Dec 2004
  • The detail that was most convincingly a "disproof" of Dictabelt being good evidence is nowhere to be seen anymore.--JimWae 17:48, 2004 Dec 24 (UTC)


[edit] Discordianism?

Discordians "claim" (as much as a Discordiam claim anything, anyway) that Dealey Plaza is the home of the Dealey Lama, the head of the Erisian Liberation Front (ELF). This plays into certain plotlines in the Illuminatus! trilogy. Is this worth noting in the article anywhere? --Master Forcide 06:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grassy knoll witnesses

"Hudson gave no opinion as to the direction of the gunshots. Zapruder testified to shots from the knoll. Marilyn Sitzman was not called as a witness. In a interview with Josiah Thompson she has no opinion as to the direction of the shots. Charles Hester stated in an affidavit the day of the assassination that he and his wife heard shots from the knoll. Beatrice did not give a separate statement."

Emmett Hudson testified in 1964 that the shots came from the direction of the Texas School Book Depository. He reiterated his testimony in an interview with HSCA investigators in 1979. Abraham Zapruder testified in 1964 that he could not tell where the shots came from, that he only inferred that the shots came from the knoll because the right side of Kennedy's head exploded, and people were running up the knoll:

Mr. LIEBELER - But you didn't form any opinion at that time as to what direction the shots did come from actually?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you form any opinion about the direction from which the shots came by the sound, or were you just upset by the thing you had seen?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - No, there was too much reverberation. There was an echo which gave me a sound all over. In other words that square is kind of — it had a sound all over.

Marilyn Sitzman told Josiah Thompson that, "If she had to guess from which direction [the shots] came, she would have guessed to her left." In a Dallas County Sheriff's Report made on Nov. 23, 1963, she likewise said that the shots came from the "old Sexton building" (i.e., the TSBD) and pointed to it. Charles Hester said in a Dallas Sheriff's statement made on Nov. 22, 1963, "They [the shots] sounded like they came from immediately behind us and over our heads. We did see the shooting. I immediately turned and looked at the Texas Book Depository Building and did not see anyone. The shots sounded like they definitely came from in or around the building." In an FBI report made two days later, he said that the shots were fired from a building on the corner of Elm and Houston, and he believed that he and his wife were in the line of fire. Beatrice Hester did give her own statement to the FBI, "but stated she could not furnish any information as to exactly where the shots came from." — Walloon 04:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Good for you Walloon you are actually doing some real research into the assassination in order to point out some of those errors.
Now read McAdams’ “Ear Witnesses” to see all of his errors. Anyone who reads the testimony and statements in the Warren Report will see that the vast majority of witnesses gave very vague descriptions as to the location of the shots. “To the right.” or “To the left.” While very few witnesses specifically stated “the knoll”, “the fence” many stated that general direction.
Other witnesses like Nellie Connally cannot be categorized. She said, “the right”. This could be the Depository or the knoll. Yet McAdams attempts to place each witness in one specific column. It’s impossible.
It is false to state that “significantly” few witnesses on the knoll heard gunshots. Significantly many in Dealey Plaza did. (CWC)
All posts to the message boards should be signed and dated by adding a dash and four tildas (~) at the end.
From the Warren Commission Hearings, Testimony of Mrs, John B. Connally:
Mr. SPECTER - With respect to the source, you say you thought that it was was to the right — did you have any reaction as to whether they were from the front, rear, or side?
Mrs. CONNALLY - I thought it was from back of us.
Mr. SPECTER - To the rear?
Mrs. CONNALLY - To the right; that is right.
Nowhere does the article say that “significantly” few witnesses on the knoll heard gunshots. That's absurd. We have testimony from five of the nine witnesses on the knoll. All five (Hudson, Zapruder, Sitzman, and Charles and Beatrice Hester) heard gunshots. Three gave an opinion on the direction of the shots, and all three (Hudson, Sitzman, and Charles Hester) said that they came from the direction of the Depository.
— Walloon 00:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Since you have conceded defeat by protecting this page as well. Which JFK page should I target for facts next? Maybe “gun runner” Jack Ruby. Or maybe the ‘Trial of Clay Shaw’ article. What were the names of the “several witnesses” to refute Aloysius Habighorst testimony? Were they the same “dozen” witnesses who you claim saw Oswald kill Tippit? Where is their testimony in the trial transcripts? You must come up with better sources than just McAdams website. Maybe you are McAdams. Shaw’s attorney’s argument against Habighorst was that he held a personal grudge against him for losing his brother’s case. (CWC)

CWC, I protected this article to give you and the other users time and space to discuss proposed changes to the article, on the talk page here. If you move on to start edit warring on different articles, instead of sticking around to work out a consensus on Dealey Plaza, then I will regard this as unacceptable behavior not conducive to this encyclopedia: tendentious editing. However, you are very welcome to have a civil conversation here, which could be fruitful. Please take the route of discussion and consensus-building. I'm sure it will have the best results. ··coelacan 17:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Dear coeLacan Each and every aspect of the assassination here on Wikipedia is distorted to a level beyond even what Earl Warren or Gerald Posner could imagine. It is horrifying to think that anyone who might research the assassination on the very popular site would be indoctrinated with a whole new series of outright lies. For example, that 12 witnesses saw Oswald kill Tippit, the Warren Commission ballistics experts linked Oswald’s gun to the Tippit and Walker shootings, and that Jack Ruby’s primary occupation was a gunrunner? I began to set the record straight with Lee Harvey Oswald’s biography. All my changes were removed within 5 minutes. (Not an exaggeration) I then attempted to enter their discussion page and politely point out 31 errors in their footnotes. They either fabricate testimony or cite someone’s (Gerald Posner) opinion as an established fact. If Oswald’s biography contained 31 errors imagine how many there are altogether. Also these 31 errors were merely outright errors. The whole article is extremely biased. Devoting space to Ruth Paines’ religious beliefs while at the same time mentioned nothing about her intelligence employment. The ignorance by wikipedia was overwhelming. Not only were my comments not answered, they were censored altogether! Just to reassure you, my comments contained sources and no personal insults or profanity. When I inquired as to why my comments were being censored my IP address was banned from Wikipedia. This had little effect since I simply switched my IP address. Hence ALL discussion on Oswald’s biography was censored for two weeks until June 13. It is extremely hypercritical to accuse me of “tendentious editing” when Walloon (McAdams) and others zealously removed all edits without explanation and censored all discussion. If the Wikipedia history for the Oswald page had not been censored you would see that I “civilly” discussed for the last two weeks making changes to the article. However every single aspect of the assassination is dictated by only four editors who cannot cite sources. “Consensus building” does not come from deleting discussion. (CWC)

All messages posted to message pages should be signed and dated with a dash and four tildas (~).
Wikipedia does not state that (1) "12 witnesses saw Oswald kill Tippit"; (2) "Jack Ruby’s primary occupation was a gunrunner", or (3) the Warren Commission ballistics experts linked Oswald’s gun to the Walker shooting.
The Lee Harvey Oswald article does correctly report (with reference source) that, "It was the unanimous testimony of expert witnesses before the Warren Commission that these used cartridge cases [found by witnesses at the Tippit shooting] were fired from the revolver in Oswald's possession to the exclusion of all other weapons," and that expert testimony to the HSCA (also sourced) (not the Warren Commission) found it "extremely likely" that the Walker bullet was manufactured by Western Cartridge Company for the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.
Of the 106 footnotes in the Lee Harvey Oswald article, Gerald Posner's book is referenced in one half of one footnote, and two articles at the McAdams site are referenced in other footnotes. Throughout that article's footnotes, claims are referenced to primary sources — testimony or exhibits.
If you have any further comments about the Lee Harvey Oswald article, please use that article's discussion page. — Walloon 20:33, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Also "CWC", if you had concerns about the text of the article, you could have simply raised them. Instead you acted like a dick by calling people "Posnerphiles" and now continuously calling Walloon McAdams. Also, you have been given reasons why your edits were being rejected. If you want to be taken seriously, here's a quick primer on what should be done: no long POV pushing blockquotes, use reliable sources, no personal attacks, use four tildes when you sign, and stop making stuff up. Actually read what's in these articles. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 16:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
One more thing, you can't delete stuff from this Wiki, unless you are an admin. You trolling threads do exist in some fashion. I'm not going to put it back up, since no one has any interest in reading some rant about problems that don't even exist in the article. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 16:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marilyn Sitzman

Sitzman maintained in three interviews that the shots all came from her left, from the direction of the Depository. Specifically, she said to Josiah Thompson:

And I'm sure that if the second shot would have come from a different place — and the supposed theory is they would have been much closer to me and on the right side — I would have heard the sounding of the gun much closer, and I probably had a ringing in my head because the fence was quite close to where we were standing, very close.

In an interview with Bill O'Neil in 1992, Sitzman stated, referring to the "Badgeman" location behind the fence, "the blast of a high-powered rifle would have blown me off that wall."

Unless a direct quotation from Sitzman appears in which she claims that Kennedy was hit from a shot that came from in front of him (and not that he was shot on the right side of his head between his eye and ear), this Wikipedia article will reflect what Sitzman said on the record. — Walloon 17:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early History of Dealey Plaza

While visiting the former TSBD in April 2006, on the first floor, in a hallway area off to the right, before entering the museum, is a wall display about the history of Dealey Plaza. If I remember correctly, it said that Dealey Plaza was originally built in the 1920's and contained only a grassy park. Later, in the 1930's, the monuments were added as part of a WPA project. I think that this info should be confirmed and added to this article. DavidH 01:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)davehoe3000DavidH 01:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of phrase "Grassy Knoll"

Has anyone done any research as to how the term "Grassy Knoll" came into widespread use for this particular hill? I mean, it could have been called a "hill" or "ridge" or "rise" or something else - who was the first to use the exact term and why did it come into widespread use? That would be interesting to learn given the widespread "meaning" this term has taken on, and if this research has been done it would be great to include here. Jpp42 (talk) 13:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)