Talk:David Lange

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Assessment comments

Lange's free-market reforms and maverick nuclear policy were two nuggets of legislation whose effects still resonate today, two decades later. Here is a Prime Minister who was never afraid to do the dirty work, and a man who will be dearly missed. “Non omnis moriar”.

Under quotes section I was suprised to see a single quote. I think there must be many more.. we could start with "And I'm going to give it to you if you hold your breath just for a moment … I can smell the uranium on it as you lean forward".

(generally misquoted as "I can smell the uranium on your breath")

He was certainly one of the most principled and honourable democratic leaders of modern times, and had many admirers over here on the West Island. I have added some material gleaned from newspaper obits. Adam 05:32, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Anti-German prejudice - First World War?

The article says, "His relatives suffered prejudice during the First World War due to their German ancestry, and later on in life Lange would face a political rival in 1984 who tried to discredit him because of his German heritage." Um, as I understand it, Lange was born during the Second World War, not the first. Of course his relatives may have suffered from anti-german prejudice during WW1, but what about during WW2 while young David was growing up? If that happened, it think that would belong in the article - and is more relevant (I think) than what happened to his parents before he was on the scene. David Cannon 01:13, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that the first part of the sentence is irrelevant to the article. The second part needs to be substantiated - who was this political rival? How did this person try to "discredit him because of his German heritage"? Adam 02:06, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
It's all there in the first chapter of his autobiography. -- FP <talk><edits> 03:40, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Let's have it in the pedia then. Nurg 10:19, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes indeed. I would like to finish the whole book though, give me a couple of days. -- FP <talk><edits> 20:34, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

I've seen a number of quotes from Lange's time in office, some of which are quite amusing. Is anyone working on a wikiquotes entry for Lange? --BenM 05:11, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I am now. See wikiquote:David Lange. -- FP <talk><edits> 06:47, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Heh. Cool, I'll see what I can add to it when I'm not in the office. --BenM 09:46, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm new to Wikipedia, so loath to set a foot wrong till I've learned the ropes. But I wonder if the one long Herald quote should be removed and placed on the Wikiquotes pages, and (perhaps) replaced with a more evident link to the Wikiquotes page, which is, let's face it, probably what a majority of visitors may be most interested in. -- Jscottm 21:55, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-nuclearism

"New Zealand's nuclear free legislation, which for many symbolised a pacifist identity for New Zealand". Pacifism is surely the wrong word. If NZ was pacifist it would have disbanded its military, not just banned nuclear weapons and nuclear power.

Under "International affairs" it refers to an antinuclear "policy". But it is legislation, not policy, and the distinction is surely important given the current debate over adopting the Norwegian position which IS policy rather than legislation. Nurg 10:19, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree, as does the reference cited in support of pacifism: [1] Everybody thinks we have this brilliant Labour government which is dedicated to pacifism,' says Owen Wilkes. 'But it isn't the government simply responded to public opinion whereas in other countries where there have been similar high percentages against nuclear weapons, governments haven't reacted.' So I have struck this bit. Dcxf (talk) 00:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand why you have removed the material. The article said that people thought the nuclear free legislation was related to pacifism. The ref, which I added, says everyone thinks that the Govt was pacifist because of the legislation, and then goes on to criticise that belief. The ref is confirming that (almost) everyone thinks that way (at the time), and comes from someone fairly well known in the context. The assertion in the article is that many people thought it was pacifist, not that those people were right or wrong to think that.-gadfium 00:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
It makes no sense to talk about what was definitely a mistaken impression in the context of Lange and his legacy, and it could give the reader unfamiliar with the background the impression that Lange was a pacifist when he wasn't (as far as I'm aware he wasn't even in favour of unilateral disarmament, just believed that the weapons had no place in the South Pacific, and the NZ public were most concerned about becoming a nuclear target). Dcxf (talk) 05:43, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
P.S. perhaps it would be better to put this in the International Affairs section, then there would be room to balance it, e.g. "The policy was widely regarded as a success for the peace movement although it stemmed more from anti-nuclear public opinion than from any pacifist principles" or something like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcxf (talk • contribs) 21:02, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vegan?

An anon recently added that Lange was a strict vegan. Is there any source for this? I've googled ("David Lange" vegan) but didn't see any evidence.-gadfium 02:58, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Don't know. I only edited it to fix the tense. Evil Monkey∴Hello 03:03, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
In the absence of any reply, I'll remove it from the article.-gadfium 05:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I have tried commenting out the statement, and I have tried removing it. Each time an anon reinserts it, but gives no explanation. I've left messages on the anon's talk page (but they may not receive it since it's a different IP address each time) and on Talk:List of vegans. I don't know whether I'm dealing with someone who has good reason to know that Lange was vegan but doesn't know about talk pages, or with a vandal inserting false information. I've now placed a "disputed" tag on the statement. Any removal of this tag will be treated as vandalism unless preceded by a discussion here.-gadfium 03:20, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

The anon is a vandal. (S)he regularly adds incorrect information to articles. See Families (TV series), Mr. Burns, Glenn Quagmire, Mark Wingett, Ian McShane, Dallas Austin, André 3000 and Kevin Lloyd. The JPS 11:45, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
David Lange was NOT a vegan. A vegan doesn't eat meat pies. Fellow-MP Simon Upton mentioned Lange's voracious appetite for meat pies in his eulogy. Also, I believe Lange mentions pigging out on fish and chips in his autobiography - vegans don't eat fish. The claim is total bullshit. David Cannon 07:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Er and remember the Fish and Chip Coup to remove Rowling, where Lange was photographed eating battered seafood? WE KNOW who ate all the pies. 130.216.191.183 04:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've created a section at Vandalism in progress/Long term alerts for the "Vegan vandal".-gadfium 19:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Birthplace

I can find several reliable references that Lange was born in Otahuhu, including [1], [2] and [3]. The references I can find for his birth in Thames are less authoritative and most are likely influenced by the Wikipedia article: [4] looks like it might have an independent origin. I'll ask User:Cam8001, who changed the birthplace in this article to Thames, to comment on the matter. If no comment is forthcoming, we should change the article.-gadfium 08:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have a copy of his autobiography, My Life? I'll try to get to a public library in the next couple of days to check what it says.-gadfium 08:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I have a feeling the NZ PMs website has simply been copied, rather than the Thames reference. I remember from My Life that it was Thames - if not he certainly had family there. --Lholden 10:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I now have a copy of My Life, and it says clearly on pages 20-22 that his father moved to Otahuhu in 1932 and David was born in 1942 in a maternity hospital next door to his father's house in Princes St. I've corrected the article.-gadfium 05:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pronunciation

The article says he pronounces his name "long-ee", but "long" has two pronunciations. Is it the vowel of not, wasp, or of law, caught? Thanks, kwami (talk) 02:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Valedictory speech

Regarding the quote from Lange's valedictory speech, the NZ Herald version of the valedictory speech (which is now [[5]]) was edited so badly that it changed the meaning of the quote (which was out of context anyway). The only online version of the full speech that I can find is at Kiwiblog [[6]] which is not a WP:RS, so I have just removed it. If someone can get chapter and verse for a Hansard ref please put the full quote back in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcxf (talk • contribs) 00:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)