User talk:Danrah

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[edit] Re: Administrator's Noticeboard

I apologize for writing here, however the page your message above asks to be written on is on the Farsi Wikipedia, I wasn't sure how to approach that exactly.
This is about your comments on the Administrator's Noticeboard. If you have an issue with the edits of a certain user, then you should go to that user directly first. If you feel direct commenting with a user may not be fruitful, then the official Wikipedia:Mediation policy can be helpful. Going straight to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, however, with no attempt at discussion, is a bit irresponsible. I won't bite your hand off, you can discuss any issues with me like with any other human being. MezzoMezzo (talk) 07:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your prompt response. I am glad to hear from you and let me say up front that I hold no animosity over this, there is no reason to let an editing dispute get personal. So if anything I do say or have said seems that way, then please accept my apologies in advance. I'll try to cut to the chase real quick.
  1. Regarding your references, there are two issues. The first was your insertion where you said that "most" scholars allow music and singing, when this has never been the case; we can thus infer that your reference is incorrect due to historical evidence. I am not commenting on which position is more correct as that is for the readers to decide for themselves, but the fact of the matter is that most Muslim scholars historically have ruled music being impermissible. The second issue are the ahaadeeth, neither of which actually proves permissibility. The first is regarding 'Aa'ishah witnessing young girls beating the duff, a type of drum, on the day of Eid and to the best of my knowledge this has been ruled as permissible for women on the day of Eid specifically; this is the position of the majority of scholars. It is not, however, a proof for the permissibility of music in general; check out Ibnul Qayyim's Madaarijus Saalikeen for the comments on the consensus of the scholars on that historically. As for the other hadeeth, this mentions the reciting of poetry regarding topics such as bravery and such and thus also isn't a proof for the permissibility of music. I am not here to convince you of my point of view, however - and this is the position of the majority of Muslim scholars, right or wrong - I am simply pointing out that these ahaadeeth are not widely accepted as proofs for music, so there is no contradiction.
  2. Regarding your comments on "Wahhabism", it is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY NOT ACCEPTABLE to be using that term. I am not writing in capital letters due to anger, just for emphasis. This is actually an issue we have dealt with a number of times on Wikipedia; Wahhabi is a religious slur for a group that does not actually exist. It's a catch all/bogeyman term and there is no actual group as intended by the term. This has been the general rule here, and as such calling other Muslims by that word is inappropriate and insulting. In addition, Saudia Arabia has Hanbalees, Shafi'is, Salafis, Sufis, Shi'a, and a myriad of other sects - to say that Saudi Arabians are "Wahhabi" is stereotyping and not very fair to people from there. As for Islam-QA, it's run by a guy living here in the West - he has no financial or administrative ties to Saudi Arabia, so I don't know why you would suggest that.
  3. As for your addition of other points of view, then that is good, as all views should be represented. However, you did change the main body - saying that some Muslims just "believe that" Muhammad banned musical instruments in the provided hadeeth, when it isn't an issue of belief; that's what he said. It also isn't an issue of belief whether or not the major scholars of the past, including the four imams, forbade music - they did; that is fact, not belief.
Regardless, I am happy to see you here at the "negotiating table" so to speak. I will consent to the suggestion on my talk page on two conditions:
  1. The word "believed that" is removed, because as I stated that the majority of Muslim scholars considered music impermissible is fact. We're not saying this is the correct position as that would be POV, we're just stating the fact.
  2. That this is settled between you and I for now but that doesn't prevent other editors besides us from throwing their two cents in.
Please share your thoughts and let's see how soon we may get this resolved. MezzoMezzo (talk) 05:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with that version for now, thanks for the help! MezzoMezzo (talk) 15:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)