Talk:Cyrus cylinder

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Contents 1 New - and More Correct - Translation of the Cylinder 2 Politically Motivated 3 Copyright Violation 4 Serious problem 5 "Charter of Human Rights" 6 Made-up? 7 Full translation of Cyrus Cylinder 8 Why is it kept in England 9 "Ancient Egypt" 10 RE: Pahlavi 11 Problems and possible edit 12 Wording 13 Rolling back rollbacks 14 Jona's edits 15 Monotheism? 16 CAIS 17 Conflict of Interest? 18 Finding common ground 19 POV 20 Edits by Amizzoni 21 The same old problem 22 Please discuss prior to any major edits

[edit] New - and More Correct - Translation of the Cylinder

The previous translation of the cylinder was seriously inaccurate. Specifically, it made Cyrus the Great seem much more progressive than he really was. I have taken this better translation from "The Ancient Near East, Volume 1: An Anthology of Texts and Pictures", edited by James B. Pritchard, from Princton University Press. I have also tried to summarize the gist of the text after the translation. Specifically, I have removed the idea that Cyrus "abolished" slavery. It seems that what was really happening was that Nabonidus, the king of Babylon, had imposed "corvee-work" (forced labor) on the free men of the city, thereby essentually reducing them to slavery; Cyrus freed these former free men, but we should NOT assume that this emancipation would have also included those who had been slaves even before Nabonidus' ruler. The key phrase to understand is: "I abolished] the corvee (lit.: yoke) which was against their (social) standing" (the parathesis are not mine, but from the translation given in the book). This phrase suggests that those who had not been slaves before Nabonidus' rule were now returned to their former position in society; however, those whose social position had always included "corvee-work" - in the other words, the slaves - were not affected by Cyrus' new decree. I have been doing some research on the Internet, and it seems that this idea that the Persian Empire did not have slavery because Cyrus the Great abolished it is becoming very popular - BUT IT IS SERIOUSLY IN ERROR!!! All ancient empires had slavery - it was necessary to maintain their pre-industrialized, pre-technological, pre-modern economies. It is a sad, deplorable fact that all of our ancestors instituted and tolerated some form of human bondage, but it is, alas, true nonetheless. We must strive to diligently maintain accuracy on Wikipedia, and not allow false rumors to spread simply because one group feels that one version of a story makes it look better. Now, don;t get me wrong, I am not blind - I think I understand what this is all about... ever since Hollywood made the movie "300", Iranians around the world have, understandbly, been zealous in the defence of their heritage, history, and culture. (Now I am not going to debate that film, but let me just say that it was NOT history but utter fantasy, and I will leave it at that.) Many Iranians are trying to set the record straight about their history, but this defence CANNOT simply create "mew history" as an attack against lies or misperceptions told by Hollywood. If the Iranian historical community wants to take the high moral ground on history, then they should be honest and realistic, and no one should invent alternate histories in revenge for someone else's biased account of their own history.

We can all, Iranian or not, appreciate the achievements and ideas of this progressive, tolerant, and genius leader, Cyrus the Great, without having to view history through the ofren distorting and clouded lens of nationalism and jingoism.

(Having said all of this, I just want to add that one could argue that slavery in the Persian Empire was less harsh than in any other empire in history, save maybe for the British Empire after it abolished its slave trade in 1807. It goes without saying, I think, that the Persians were far more progressive and humance about slavery than the Greeks were. However, this does not change the fact that all ancient empires were forced to rely on some sort of human bondage for economic survivial.

On a slightly realted note, let us not forget that all empires are by nature oppressive and tyraniccal - they have to be in order to maintain stability within and to defend from invasion from without; this is not necessarily a condemnation of the Persian Empire or any other empire, just a law of human history. Cyrus, like Alexander or Genghis Khan or Napoleon, was forced to use brutal and deadly force at times, even if his own personal ideals may have suggested he act with peace and tolerance. One does not conquer an empire without blood and iron. Perhaps we should look at Cyrus as more of a tragic figure, doomed to fail in his dreams of conquering the world and of uniting humanity in one large superempire of peace, tolerance, and prosperity. The Greek historian Herodotus portrays Cyrus as such - a man too brilliant for his time, but ultimately brought down by his own genius and pride. But, anyway, this is straying into philosophy and not history, and this article on the Cyrus cylinder is historical in nature. So please just keep in mind the more correct translation that I have put up.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by IonNerd (talk • contribs) 23:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I am not very talented at working with Wikipedia, so maybe others who can manipulate it better can make it look nicer and cleaner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IonNerd (talk • contribs) 23:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

IonNerd:

I'm going to remove a part of your edit, but let me explain why. First, thank you for the more complete translation of the Cyrus Cylinder. Are you able to provide any additional citations that declare yours to be the definitive translation? This would be of immense aid to all involved, since it seems to be fairly difficult to find an agreed-upon translation in English.

However, the second half of your edit qualifies as original research. This is not allowed under Wikipedia. While you may indeed be correct in asserting that slavery existed in the Achaemenid Empire (and indeed the official page of the Achaemenid Empire admits as much), any such claim needs to be supported by citation. If you are able to provide scholarly sources, then we can include it, but considering that scholars hold differing opinions on whether or not the Achaemenids practiced slavery (and Zoroastrianism expressly forbids it), my guess is that establishing a consensus that can then be reflected in this article is unlikely. If you have any questions or concerns, please respond back. Thanks. Spectheintro (talk) 17:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)spectheintro

[Question: where does Zoroastrianism explicitly forbid slavery? I was not aware of this... is it in the Avesta? Maybe you are trying to say that Zoroastrianism forbids slavery of other Zoroastrians (Islam has a similar law - it is forbidden for a Muslim to hold another Muslim as a slave; if the slave of a Muslim were to convert to Islam, then the owner is obligated to free him/her).... If you could find a quote that would be helpful...] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.203.234.48 (talk) 20:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

IonNerd, I also have to say that your edit was extremely unprofessional. In addition to numerous typos you also engaged in frequent ALL CAPS for emphasis. That's OK on messageboards (and perhaps the talk page) but it's simply unacceptable for wikipedia content. TheStorminMormon (talk) 17:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)theStorminMormon

Response from IonNerd: Well, excuse me, sir... but at least I tried to find a better translation of the Cyrus Cylinder. I can assure you that "The Ancient Near East, Volume 1: An Anthology of Texts and Pictures" is a scholarly source, and not something I found on the Internet. If you are so convinced of what constitutes "professionalism" than maybe you should have taken the time to look up a translation and type the entire thing into Wikipedia. I already wrote that I am new to Wikipedia, and I am still learning my way around. Look, I don't want to start a flame war or anything, so please just appreciate that I put up a more correct translation of the text. And just so you know, I do agree with your deletion; I see what you are saying about not putting up my own original research, and I acknowledge that elements from my summary were my own interpretation of the text. But please, for next time, try being a little more tactful and polite in your criticism. I accepted it, but others might just get angry and ignore you altogether. This article is in bad shape as it is, seeing as how it has essentially become a forum for people's ideological and nationalistic sentiments. The last thing we need is for the rhetoric to escalate.

Just a point: the previous quote was from J. Wisehöfer, Ancient Persia from 550 BC to 650 AD, that I'm pretty sure quoted Pritchard's Ancient Near Eastern Texts.... But in fact it differs from the one that is now shown in the article. Perhaps Wisehöfer quoted it from another edition of ANET. Apart from this, Wisehöfer is a reputed researcher. Amizzoni (talk) 05:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Response from IonNerd: I do not know anything about J. Wisehofer's translation. "The Ancient Near East, Volume 1: An Anthology of Texts and Pictures" is a text that I used in college. I cannot comment, however, on how it compares to other scholarly translations, but I can guarantee that it is indeed scholarly and not taken from an Internet source or anything like that. I think that the previous translation was taken from the Internet, so it's validity is harder to assess. Anyway, please let me know more about J. Wisehofer's translation, since I do not know anything about it.

The previous translation wasn't taken from the Internet, see [1]. Its footnote read: "Wisehöfer, J., Ancient Persia from 550 BC to 650 AD, 2006 1996 , p. 45." That is, an academic publication (a respectable one, I can assure). Wiesehöfer didn't make the translation by himself, but took it from A.L. Oppenheim (I've just checked the book). As far as I know/remember, Oppenheim translated the Cyrus Cylinder in at least most of the collections of texts Pritchard used to publish. So I'd say that probably the previous translation and the new one were made by the same epigrapher... in fact, they are very similar. Amizzoni (talk) 04:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Politically Motivated

Some people do not like IRAN. They put their hands to demonize this great country. Wikipedia schould not allow these people to change the history, just because of their political attitudes. Next, the enemies of IRAN will say the Poems of SAADI which decorate the entrance to the Hall of Nations of the UN building in New York are False too!!!!!

بنی آدم اعضای یک پیکرند، که در آفرينش ز یک گوهرند چو عضوى به درد آورد روزگار، دگر عضوها را نماند قرار تو کز محنت دیگران بی غمی، نشاید که نامت نهند آدمی

"Of one Essence is the human race, Thusly has Creation put the Base;

One Limb impacted is sufficient, For all Others to feel the Mace."[4]

This is an Iranian tradition, for more than 2500 years. People loved Cyrus and Darius like christisns love Jesus, because they were just!!! Iran is GREAT, you can not fool people.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/cyrus/cyrus_charter.php http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpHKincVcew 62.178.51.59 (talk) 16:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright Violation

After googling for more info I found that a good portion of this article is plagiarized from here and/or here. How do I report this? I'm too lazy (and busy with other articles) to rewrite this right now. Stuff like 'continents' needs to be changed as well. Khirad 09:33, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear Wiki administrators;

The above information is false. I added the article from (dash) soas.com/CAIS/History/hakhamaneshian/Cyrus-the-great/cyrus_cylinder.htm The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies. The article was written by founder of the organization himself. According to (dash) soas.com/CAIS/copyright.htm their copyright policy:

Unlimited distribution is permitted without permission (unless otherwise noted) subject to:

The files will be used for Non-Commercial (no fee is charged to the users), your personal and educational use only.

The entire contents (Textual & Graphic) including the header, the author name, are not permitted to be altered.

The source (including web link address: http://www.cais (dash) soas.com) should be acknowledged.

The copyright notice (Copyright © 1998~ CAIS) should remain intact.

I even sent the author an email and aknowledged him about adding his article to Wikipedia.

Though the article was not taken from http://www.iranchamber.com ,but I contacted them (I thought maybe someone from that society is doing the deletions); and here is their reply:

Dear Mehrdad,

We never add, remove or edit anything to, from or on Wikipedia.

We were also noticed by some editors of Wikipedia that some people are adding materials from our site, and asked our permission to keep them on Wikipedia. In all of the occasions we did not express any objection. But later we did notice that some pictures and articles are removed again. We believe these removals and unnecessary editing's more or less caused by an unmanaged group of editors who are crossing each others works.

We support the cause of Wikipedia as a free source of information, and our copyright notice is only subjected to the commercial use of our materials which we do not grant any permission for such purposes at all. Above all we support what ever can more introduce our beloved Iran to the world.

Best regards,

Shahrzad Rouzrokh Editor of Iran Chamber Society http://www.iranchamber.com

Regards, --Mehrdad 06:42, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, the policy: "The entire contents (Textual & Graphic) including the header, the author name, are not permitted to be altered." conflicts with Wikipedia policy. All Wikipedia articles must be able to be edited. Wikipedia can't be used simply as a mirror for other people's essays. If you wanted to write your own article, and then provide a link to this person's essay, then that would be fine.--JW1805 16:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Serious problem

1) There is no evidence cited by any serious historian that the cylinder has anything whatsoever to do with Cyrus.

2) The text is known to be highly fragemented. 99% of the text has nothing whatseover to do with human rights but rather quite opposed concepts such as the divine right of kings and the right of conquest.

The extrapolation seems to be based on a single phrase, the "freeing" of a city from the "yoke" of another ruling class, and the failure to kill the inhabitents as they surrendered instead of fighting. This terminology and practice of not killing the inhabitents of a city that surrenders is notable no sense and indeed ubiquitous throughout history.72.75.18.6 19:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Charter of Human Rights"

Please provide a source for this statement: "In 1971 the United Nations translated and published the Cyrus Cylinder as the first declaration of human rights into all official U.N.languages." The UN translates a lot of things. Did they really declare this decree to be the "first declaration of human rights"? Do legitimate historians agree with this interpretation? The text can be found here. In no way is this a "charter of human rights". --JW1805 03:36, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

There seem to be different versions of this declaration on the internet. Compare the two at this site and (dash) soas.com/CAIS/History/hakhamaneshian/Cyrus-the-great/cyrus_cylinder.htm this site. The second site has a version with a lengthy extra part at the end, containing highly dubious material like: "I will impose my monarchy on no nation. Each is free to accept it , and if any one of them rejects it , I never resolve on war to reign." Some of the hyperbole on the various sites mentioning this declaration make me doubt their accuracy and objectivness. Is there a translation of this text from a reputable source (like the British Museum)? --JW1805 02:52, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

• Another version here, with an additional opening section not found in the other two versions. --JW1805 03:16, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

That is the real problem, I did a lot of searching but I was unable to find the real UN translation. Many sites translate it themselves and so the result is different. I will continue my search. --Aytakin 04:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

______________________________________________________________________________________________

The best place for a translation of the Cyrus Cylinder is, unfortunatly, in university libraries. There are many people adding their own parts to this so-called 'declaration of human rights'. It is no such thing. I have studied the cylinder as part of my dissertation (and I can read Akkadian) and I can assure you that many of the web sites are simply telling lies regarding the content of the cylinder. Basically, Cyrus was presenting himself as a ligitimate ruler of Babylon whilst trying to 'demonise' the previous ruler, Nabonidus. The 'human rights' stems from the Jewish tradition and has its roots in the fact that the Persians apparently gave them money to re-build their temple. It is no accident that Cyrus is praised in the bible yet is strangly absent from Persian epics. Cyrus was also used as an example of a good King by Xenophon of Athens in the Cyropedia, but this is purely a piece of rhetoric and most shcolars agree that it bears no resemblance to the 'real' Cyrus. In all, Cyrus was a very canny politician. He knew what he had to do to legitimise his rule and he made extensive use of propagander to do it. He could be described as 'tolerant' to other cultures as this was another tool to keep the empire (and they were not really intersted in non-Persians worshipping Ahura-Mazda anyway). However, to talk about Cyrus in modern terms of 'Human Rights' is ridiculous. It must be noted that Babylon was one of Persia'a 'hotspots' (along with Egypt) and there were several rebellions here. That is until Xerxes, the fourth King, decided to exterminate much of the population to keep them quite, as well as impose ridiculous levels of taxation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.253.63.15 (talk • contribs) 11:08, December 13, 2005.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

This is very true, the only current relieble source of the translation is only university libraries. I have a translation to Farsi of the cylinder, which was published in باستان شناسی و هنر ایران (Archeology and Art of Iran) which was a very respected journal written during the rule of Mohammad Reza Shah by scholars. But the problem is its in farsi and I tried getting it translated, but then the problem was the translators don't know the historical terms, which messed it up. There are many good versions in Farsi and French, but none in English. --(Aytakin) | Talk 21:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

______________________________________________________________________________________________

One of the reasons Wikipedia is fast becoming a joke is the comments above. People with no real expertise in a field tearing apart and reconstructing history to reflect their own personal beliefs. Cyrus the great may indeed have not been perfect, but the facts speak loudly that he was more than just a "canny politician". It may be fashionable to find middle eastern historical figures and ascribe them with hidden motives and evil characteristics, but genuine scholars do no such thing. The foremost expert on Achaemenid Persia, Professor R.N.Frye (who I have indeed met, and who is incredibly astute), says this in "The Heritage of Persia" (pp. 123-134):

"In the victories of the Persians... what was different was the new policy of reconciliation and together with this was the prime aim of Cyrus to establish a pax Achaemenica..... If one were to assess the achievements of the Achaemenid Persians, surely the concept of One World, .... the fusion of peoples and cultures in one 'Oecumen' was one of their important legacies"

While the translations indeed may be overambitious in what they purport to translate, and have tacked on various meanings, including some wishful thinking, let's not turn this discussion, and Cyrus' Cylinder, into something else to suit political agendas. The Cylinder is unique, and so was Cyrus, so much so that his enemies respected him and his honor. The tradition of announcing reforms at the beginning of rulership is not unique, and thus this may not be the first declaration of human rights, but it is a very significant one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.167.62.119 (talk • contribs) 09:17, December 17, 2005.

TO ADD ON, the part I mentioned that I agree with the comments made by the unsigned user, I only meant the fact that its hard to find a relieble source for the translation, with the rest of it I do not agree with. I just want to clear that up!! --(Aytakin) | Talk 22:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Made-up?

A good part of this translation is made-up. The Babylonian text is in fragments and never as perfect as this. I will put on a scientific translation (from a "university library") up soon. --Khodadad 08:52, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Full translation of Cyrus Cylinder

I have confirmed the translation on http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/babylon05.html to be a full translation of the Cyrus Cylinder and is in agreement with the translation found in "The Inscriptions Relating to the Rise of Cyrus And His Conquest of Babylonia". This book and many others have been scanned and made available in pdf format from www.brainfly.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.102.76.122 (talk • contribs) 15:18, March 22, 2006

Sorry, i cannot trust the above mentioned livius.org as a seriously run source of knowledge. For example, search for the Word Arians to see how Jona Lendering reduces this term as to be only a Tribe in western Afghanistan!!!!! So, that joke is enought for me. Under Aryans, you will see only few words that would never cover the whole historic meaning. For him, it seems only be of importance that the term was misused by Nazis. This is not a professional work. 62.178.51.59 (talk) 17:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

---

UN Translation: Where is the UN translation of 1971? I cannot find it on the UN websites! They spend lots of time and money to do something then hide it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great In 1971, the UN translated it into all of its official languages.

82.70.40.190

Have a look at this: http://www.iranchamber.com/history/cyrus/cyrus_charter.php

62.178.51.59 (talk) 16:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

---

One would suggest that the people above naming such academics as Frye read more up-to-date studies on Cyrus, such as the Acheamenid History Workshop series of publications that have changed the way Persia itself is studied. I did not, I think, present a picture of a demonised Cyrus, just a more realistic one. I have spent many a year studying this most famous (in the west - his impact on the eastern tradition of ancient folklore is limited) monarch and have deep respect for his achievements and the dynasty he created. It is now unfortunate that the myth preceeds the man...

Further to the disscussion, the best place to find an accurate and accepted (though by no means totally uncontested) translation is in Maria Brosius' book on Persian inscriptions as part of the LACTOR series:

Brosius,M (2000) 'The Persian Empire from Cyrus II to Artaxerxes I' in London Association of Classical Teachers 16: London.

This is the text usually presented to university students to study, at least in the UK anyway. Oppenheims text (cited above) is, unfortunatly, now considered 'out of date' (if I may use so bold an expression) though it does contain much colour in the prose.

[edit] Why is it kept in England

Shouldn't the Cyrus Cylinder be kept in Iran as it is their property, or is it that the Shah let them keep it as he was nothing but a puppet of the England.

It should, as well as many other historical objects held by the British Museum that belong to Iran, but unfortunatly because many of the these objects were stolen from Iran and later were "found"/bought by the british museum, Iran can't get it back, partly because of the law and partly because they really don't care! --(Aytakin) | Talk 20:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The Tehran museum owns a beautiful Greek inscription from Nehavand; I think the Iranian government would not give it to the Greeks if they demanded it, because it never was in Greece. Equally, the Cyrus Cylinder, written in Akkadian, dedicated to a Babylonian god, found in Babylon, belongs in Iraq. If it were excavated today, the Iraqi government would be the rightful owner.

It is now in London, because it was excavated in Babylon by a team of British-sponsored archaeologists, and the Turkish sultan had agreed to give it to the British Museum. In those days, the usual deal was that the archaeologists could keep whatever they found, except for gold and silver, which were to remain in the countries where it was found. (Therefore, many finds from ancient Iran, like the Code of Hammurabi from Susa, are now in the Louvre.) By nineteenth-century standards, deals like these were perfectly legal, and I think most Arabs and Iranians would have been glad that those foreigners were laboring to excavate gold and silver for them, and did not really care about the other objects.Jona Lendering 00:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Ancient Egypt"

Uh, this has nothing to do with ancient Egypt.... 24.148.19.254 15:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RE: Pahlavi

Regarding the edit "Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi has claimed that" [2]

1- Where is your source? Besides the article on your own website which seems to claim this without providing any sources.

2- "has claimed" suggests that he continues to do so. However I think we both know that he is no longer with us :) --Rayis 18:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I do not know who you are replying to but to answer you, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi said that in his speech in his 2,500 year celebration of Iran's monarchy speech. If you want to see it get the film "Flame of Persia" which shows the celebration. In that speech he also read parts of the cylinder. --(Aytakin) | Talk 21:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

As to #1, I will soon be able to publish part of the correspondence with the U.N., and I think that the TV imagery mentioned above will be sufficient. As to #2, feel free to improve my English.Jona Lendering 23:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems and possible edit

There are clearly some problems with this page, not least that it actually contradicts the material on Cyrus the Great. Text copied verbatim from a site which is, to say the least, opinionated doesn't help matters. I made some changes which I think rectify these and help with NPOV. However, I thought I'd check I haven't done anything glaringly wrong before I actually saved the edit, so I put the edited page here. All being well, I'll make the actual change in a day or two when everyone has have had a chance to object to my mutilation of their work.Dan TV 20:37, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

looks great! Jona Lendering 23:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Good work! A minor point: In note N 14, you could give a link to http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/cyrus_cylinder2.html#TEXT instead of to a 1912 translation.--Amizzoni 00:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I've changed the note and I'll edit the page shortly. Dan TV 09:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I am gonna go through it all. Thanks for your additions, although most of it is original research with unverifiable material. The claim that Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was the first to refer to it is not a fact, it just seems like a theory claimed by someone on internet. Also Ebadi did not "quote" anyone, and stop making it look like she did, "he would not reign over the people if they did not wish it" is not a direct quote, and should not be treated as such. Also the other parts I am going to move here for discussion:

"However, it can also be argued that similar gestures to those recorded on the Cylinder were more or less usual for a conquering monarch in contemporary Babylon and the surrounding area^[1]. By this argument, Cyrus may have been unusually generous, but the Cylinder cannot be regarded as a charter guaranteeing rights. At least one translation of the Cylinder’s text found online has been ‘elaborated’ with promises founding Cyrus’ right to reign on the acceptance of the people^[2]. This is in contradiction with the early part of the text, which recounts the god Marduk’s offer of a tyrannical monarch’s kingdom to Cyrus, founding his conquest on divine right^[3]."

This is problematic because there are a lot of things that can be argued, but wikipedia is not a place for it. Carry out your original research elsewhere and get it published first, on a reliable peer-reviewed and neutral academic journal. --Rayis 20:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all, excuse me for my last change, it wasn't bad intentioned -I didn't even get the right place! For more references to the paragraph you moved here, see the following:

"[A]lready prior to the identification of the relevant fragment [i.e., the Yale fragment mentioning Assurbanipal] [J. Hamatta] had remarked on the similarity of style between the Cyrus Cylinder and the inscriptions of Assurbanipal. In this connection, CBF Walker correctly remarked that the Cyrus Cylinder is a normal building inscription within the Assyrian-Babylonian tradition, and can certainly not be regarded as some declaration of human rights (Walker 1972:159; see also Kuhrt 1983; Van der Spek 1982)."

(from M. Dandamaev A Political History of the Achaemenid Empire, pp. 52-53, the publications refered to are: A. Kuhrt "The Cyrus Cylinder and Achaemenid imperial policy" in Journal of Studies of the Old Testament 25 pp. 83-97., B. van der Spek, "Did Cyrus the Great introduce a new policy towards subdued nations? Cyrus in Assyrian perspective" in Persica 10 pp. 273-285, and C.B.F. Walker, "A recently identified fragment of the Cyrus Cylinder", in Iran 10, pp. 158-159; if you search "cyrus cylinder" + "human rights" you can get the relevant passage in http://books.google.com/)

Furthermore, Jona Lendering is not just "someone on internet", notice that he's an scholar, and that Livius.org is indexed in Abzu (also known as the Holy Canon of Ancient Near East Online Resources), of the Chicago University Oriental Institute. It doesn't means that all that he writes is true, but we can take him as a serious source.

I agree that there is a problem with the last sentence, it can't reference to the Cylinder itself -it would be original research-, and I also believe that words like tyrannical sounds quite sensationalistic, so we should refrase it, or just remove it.--Amizzoni 01:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Amizzoni please feel free to add what you will with the proper sources. I have no doubt that Lendering is a respectable scholar but that article on his website was not what I would call academically written and therefore should not really be used as a source on Wikipedia. After all this is an Encyclopedia and only notable research should be used as evidence. Thanks! --Rayis 14:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

"However, it can also be argued that similar gestures to those recorded on the Cylinder were more or less usual for a conquering monarch in contemporary Babylon and the surrounding area. (etc.)

This is problematic because there are a lot of things that can be argued, but wikipedia is not a place for it.

I think a reference will fix this problem, and suggest two articles already mentioned above: Amelie Kuhrt "The Cyrus Cylinder and Achaemenid imperial policy" in Journal of Studies of the Old Testament 83-97., Bert van der Spek, "Did Cyrus the Great introduce a new policy towards subdued nations? Cyrus in Assyrian perspective" in Persica 273-285

Maybe this helps. I am currently suffering from a server crisis, but will soon put up a PDF of a part of the U.N. correspondence, kindly sent to me by a scholar from Chicago.Jona Lendering 15:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Good job on the article so far. Although can you please again, explain this:

"By this argument, Cyrus may have been unusually generous, but the Cylinder cannot be regarded as a charter guaranteeing rights"

- Arguably, no charter of human rights will ever "guarantee" anything so I am not sure what this sentence is trying to imply here. --Rayis 13:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes of course, call this a "Dutchism". What I meant is that it is to be seen as propaganda, not as a charter.Jona Lendering 18:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh I understand now. That is actually a very valid point - and I will try to build on that when I get time. It is known that Cyrus wanted to be a popular ruler that is loved by the people rather than a strict ruler who scares the people in order to control them --Rayis 18:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wording

For criticism section, there needs to be a more clarified paragraph explaining Cyrus's policy that he wanted to make people like him (rather than the word propoganda), and also stop putting "it cannot be regarded as charter guaranteeing rights" or anything like that which doesn't make sense. --Rayis 21:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it all seems almost fine on this article. Lets keep it short on the Cyrus' article. --Rayis 21:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rolling back rollbacks

Rayis had asked additional references to back up the statement that there are many parallels for the CC, which I inserted; I also polished the notes and reworked the propaganda bit, offering more context. I thought it was fine, but it was all removed and an incorrect summary was inserted. I have now rolled back that rollback. I propose that people who want to roll back large sections, as was done, will announce it first.Jona Lendering 14:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jona's edits

*Besides, Mary Boyce has made it clear in many publications that the Iranian religions of that age were not monotheistic,^[4] which makes it impossible to state that Cyrus, although himself a monotheist, allowed his subjects to keep their own beliefs.

Because the Cyrus Cylinder can not be used to support the late Shah's opinion about Cyrus, at least one falsification has been made, probably before Fragment B was discovered. It can be found online and has been ‘elaborated’ with promises founding Cyrus’ right to reign on the acceptance of the people.^[5]

-> Jona, this is all your original research and findings! what you conclude from evidence you choose to accept, is YOUR conclusion. There is no evidence that Mohammad Reza Shah was the first to call this a charter of human rights, and there is absolutely no reason for you to go all the way on to research to prove him wrong!. --Rayis 17:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

There's no need to use expressions like "nonsense". See your p.m. for reply.Jona Lendering 17:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Monotheism?

Alright. Well, you can't use a book on Beliefs and practices of Zoroastrianism to make up a conclusion regarding whether Cyrus would or wouldn't be tolerant of other religions. Mary Boyce in her book does not conclude anywhere that "it is impossible to state that Cyrus, although himself a monotheist, allowed his subjects to keep their own beliefs." I think that is very much your personal conclusion. --Rayis 18:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I am afraid there are two misunderstandings here. (a) I did not say that Cyrus was intolerant; I only said that one cannot deduce his tolerance from the CC. (b) Far more important -and I should have been more explicit about this- is that Mary Boyce uses an extremely rare definition of monotheism. Here it is, from Textual Sources for the Study of Zoroastrianism (1984, page 167): "belief in one eternal God, Creator of all lesser beneficient divinities", which she opposes to the later, pure monotheïst doctrine that we can todat encounter in Iran. In other words, Boyce's "monotheïsm of Cyrus" is in fact some sort of polytheism. (The technical term, which we must perhaps introduce, is henotheism.)

Note that Cyrus' younger contemporary Darius was a henotheist-polytheist: he calls Ahuramazda "greatest of the gods", plural (e.g., DH). Herodotus -for what he is worth- is quite explicit that the Persians were polytheists, sacrificing to "Zeus, the sun, the moon, fire, water, and the winds" (Hist. 1.131). I conclude that Cyrus was not a monotheist.Jona Lendering 21:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Mary Boyce, in her "Zoroastrians: Their religious beliefs and practices" argues:

"Cyrus' actions were, moreover, those of a loyal Mazda-worshipper, in that he sought to govern his vast new empire justly and well, in accordance to Asha" pp55

(Mazda = Ahura Mazda, Asha refers to idea of cosmic balance in Zoroastrianism)

I have no idea where you are going with this, but I don't think this has anything to do with this article. --Rayis 22:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The claim was made in the article that Cyrus tolerance for other religions is so special, because he is a monotheist. But he wasn't; he was a polytheist (or a henotheist), which would have made it easier for him to accept other religions.

"a loyal Mazda-worshipper" does not necessarily mean monotheist. Artaxerxes II was a loyal Mazda worshipper too, but he also dedicated inscriptions to Anahita and Mithra.

You bring up the subject of Zoroastrianism. I think this is, for the present article, unnecessary. If Cyrus, Darius, and Xerxes were Mazda-worshippers (which is a fact), they were not necessarily Zoroastrians. Cf. Catholics and Protestants, venerating the same Trinity, reading the same Scripture, focusing on the same Apostles etc, but they are still two religions. I am afraid that we do not enough about Iranian religion in the pre-Sasanian age to be more specific than the following things: (a) the rulers of the Achaemenid house venerated Ahuramazda; (b) they may have been Zoroastrians, but we can not be certain; (c) they were henotheists.

As far as I am concerned, we leave Zoroastrianism out, and opt for Cyrus as a henotheist, not a monotheist, which makes his tolerance less strange than is sometimes assumed.Jona Lendering 23:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

If I'm reading this right, both of you have the same issue, but you are each looking at it from a different angle. First, if I'm not mistaken, the offending sentence is: "He allowed his subjects to continue worshipping their gods, despite his own monotheist beliefs."

1. Now, if I'm reading Jona's comments right, his problem with the "monotheistic" clause are the semantics. To explain, I'm going to take out the adjective from the sentence so that it now reads: "He allowed his subjects to continue worshipping their gods, despite his own beliefs". Now, do you see the problem? What the sentence is now saying is that his own beliefs forbid his subjects from worshipping other gods. Of course, that is precisely the opposite of what Boyce is saying, which is that Cyrus' actions are in accord with Mazdaen belief. (whether Mazdaen belief is monotheistic or not is hardly an issue for an article on the CC).

2. Rayis' problem is also with "despite" but from another angle, and in the implication that just being of one persuation is an indication that one might be intolerant of another. But I think both Jona and Rayis are actually in agreement on this, both objecting (rightly so) to the idea that the CC exemplifies Cyrus' tolerance.

May I suggest that you nuke that problem sentence altogether? It doesn't add to the substance of the article, and IMO Cyrus' personal values and attitudes are not relevant to the CC. For all we know Cyrus could have been a mean, wife-beating SOB, but projected himself as a nice guy because it suited his policies. I'm not saying that he was that, I'm only saying that only his policies - not his personal values - may be inferred from the CC. That the article at this point cites a source that does not corroborate the statement makes it much, much worse.

-- Fullstop 15:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

ps: there is a high incidence of <refs> to CAIS, cfiwest.org and iranchamber.com in the "Charter of Human Rights" section, effectively tainting an otherwise good article.

I think you are right and that your proposal is a good one. I have sort of agreed with Rayis that he would revise the article, and I will leave it at this. As to your PS: the three sites you name are indeed based on pre-Schaudig stuff. In the past years, I have mentioned it to them, but they never replied. (CAIS has three times put photo's online, claiming copyright, which were in fact mine.)Jona Lendering 18:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CAIS

There are loads of entries from IranChamber and Livius too. CAIS was part of SOAS (University of London), and it is considered as a scholarly based website. Most of the articles there are written by renowned archaeologists and historians. However, other two websites, IranChamber and Livius are both private-websites with no academic affiliations, and should be treated cautiously. Surena 08:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

(a) The CAIS has in the past claimed association to the SOAS. CAIS also used my, copyrighted, stuff. When I demanded that the CAIS mentioned my name, and received no answer, I wrote to the SOAS, which was very upset, because to the best of their knowledge, there was no affiliation whatsoever. The CAIS has later changed the reference on its website.

(b) A private website is not necessarily a bad website. Universities can not give away their articles for free (see the lack of access to JSTOR), which Livius can. I can assure you that I have my its academic credentials, and if I do not call myself "doctorandus" or "professor", that's because I think that arguments must be true regardless of one's title. The only kind of paperwork in which academicians should sign with titles, is a letter for Amnesty International.

(c) The issue is, essentially, not about ownership, but about quality, and that means: do you quote the latest insights? Or to make it even simpler, is the work by Pierre Briant used?Jona Lendering 15:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC

I really don't known about your history with CAIS or SOAS. However, only thing that I known for fact, when I was student as SOAS, for over two years I was attending (as a student) CAIS (dash) soas.com/CAIS/Seminars.htm weekly workshops, which was held at the department of Archaeology. However, I'm not accusing you of anything, but it is quite surprising that SOAS denied of their knoledge or affiliation with CAIS! Surena 16:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

PS - PS. I just done a [(dash) soas.com%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.cais (dash) soas.com%2FCAIS%2Fimages%2Fcais1.gif%3BLH%3A10%3BLW%3A10%3BLC%3A%230000ff%3BVLC%3A%23800080%3BALC%3A%23ff0000%3BGALT%3A%23a52a2a%3BGFNT%3A%230000ff%3BGIMP%3A%23ff0000%3B&domains=www.cais (dash) soas.com&q=Jona+Lendering+&btnG=Search&sitesearch=www.cais (dash) soas.com search] on CAIS website, and contrary to your claim, they have acknowledged your website as well as your name as the source of number of images in their website. [(dash) soas.com/CAIS/virtual_museum/sasanian/Sites/bishapur.htm 1], [(dash) soas.com/CAIS/Languages/aryan/aryan_alphabet_p3.htm 2], [(dash) soas.com/CAIS/Archaeology/Hakhamaneshian/Pasargadae.htm 3], [(dash) soas.com/CAIS/Archaeology/Hakhamaneshian/dascylium.htm 4], [(dash) soas.com/CAIS/Architecture/sasanian_palaces_islam.htm 5]. Surena 17:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

That's after I forced them to admit that they had no longer an affiliation to the SOAS. And as to stealing photos, look at (dash) soas.com/CAIS/Languages/aryan/inscription_of_darius_grt.htm this one and the statement of the bottom of the page. And now look at this photo, which we made about a year and a half ago. This is some sort of "implicit" plagiaranism: the (c) of course only relates to the text, but SOAS-members have also put photos I made online saying "(c) [Name]".Jona Lendering 00:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment:' Jona, isn’t strange that CAIS acknowledges you as the source of number of images in their website, and deny you “only one” picture?! As you known these days, images and data are floating around Internet, to the point that no one knowns the original source; have you ever considered it may be the case? It maybe obtained from other sources than yours. I saw Karl von Ribbentrop of CAIS few days ago at Sasanian Conference at SOAS, and if I knew about this, I would have asked him. Anyhow, I have already sent him an email mentioned your claim, and I think you should do the same. Surena 04:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Surena: it is not "only picture", it is a series. CAIS has claimed affiliation to SOAS which it did not have, and much to the embarrasment of the SOAS. They put their references to my photos online only after they had been warned. I remember seeing one of my photos of the Susa statue of Darius in the Wikipedia, and someone related to the SOAS stating that he was the photographer and released his work to the public domain. Finally, if photos are floating around the internet, isn't it remarkable that they were quite capable of identifying me as the maker of several photos I have never complained about? They systematically infringe upon my copyright. I'm really easygoing about it - the other day, I uploaded several photos to the wiki, no problem. The only thing I ask is that people mention Livius. That's all. If someone else claims the photo is his, he is a thief, because no one can be as absentminded as to forget which photos he took himself.Jona Lendering 11:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Jona I agree, and I do sympathise with you. You have every right to demand acknowledgement, but I was saying CAIS may have obtained the photos from somewhere else, rather than your site, and that is why they have not acknowledged you (that is my guess). Still I believe you should contact them and demand attribution. Surena 11:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict of Interest?

• Jona - Your userpage, reads as: "webmaster of Livius.Org, and am employed by Livius Onderwijs". And after studying you contributions, which I must say are great, in almost every entry you have used your own webiste as reference, which in a way considered as POV; (examplaes: Battle of Gaugamela, Cyrus cylinder, Zopyrus, Persian Gates, Ariobarzan, etc). Are you aware that Wikipedia prohibits self-promotion? Surena 08:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I understand your point, but there are three objections.

(a) If I see an article that is obviously plagiarized from my website (e.g. Ariobarzan), I think it is better to offer a link back to the original source than to remove the article altogether.

(b) Often, my articles are the latest on a subject. Take for instance Gaugamela, in which I have I have used the 2003 publication by R.J. van der Spek, and have shown that an "eastern perspective" is both necessary and possible. Or take the Persian Gates: my web site is the only one at the moment that takes Speck's publication into account. In my view, that is not self promoting, but promoting the latest insights. But whatever you call it, it is not self promotion in the sense as as the Wiki defines it, because it is not an advertisement, not a reference to a personal page, and serves no commercial interests (Livius Onderwijs is non-profit). I am just giving up-to-date knowledge away for free.

(c) Or take the discussion about the CC; the "human rights charter interpretation" is based on outdated books and, essentially, propaganda. Because I think that propaganda and outdated books are bad things in an encyclopedia, I wrote to Schaudig to ask permission to put his, recent, edition online; and because Rayis made the reasonable request for more evidence for the (among scholars perfectly common) view that the CC is not something revolutionary and that the Shah promoted this text as a Human rights charter, I put additional evidence online too, although the references to the articles by Kuhrt and Van der Spek were sufficient evidence. I can not help it that I have to refer to my own webpage, although I know that in April the British Museum will also put online "my" Schaudig.

If you know a better solution, just let me know.Jona Lendering 15:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Well main problem here is that all of your Wiki-contributions are your own personal views/opinions, which are supported by your own website and articles! In fact, I was reading your article about Cyrus Cylinder, and that is not the way a neutral-historian writes. It seems you have something against Iranians, which all your angers and hatreds have been projected into that article. Surena 16:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, I agree. This is why only academically and scholarly written articles should be used as reference in an article on a encyclopedia, especially in a dispute. Not an article written in such manner with such POV. It's bad enough as it is, and now that the scholars are coming on Wikipedia to push their POV on to the article and use their website as reference for it! In any case I have reported it on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents feel free to comment there. --Rayis 17:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) --194.145.161.226 17:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Moved to Talk:Cyrus_cylinder/Uncivil_remarks_by_194.145.161.226 --Rayis 20:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

How come you sign your IP address, instead of your Username? Surena 18:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It's an old habit. I almost never used to sign with my user name, even at the time when I contributed every day (God forbid that I relapse into that condition again). --194.145.161.226 19:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

For a tiny moment I though you might be Jona, impersonating himself and using himself as reference! Anyhow, with regard to Jona’s preconceived-notion, as you put it "emotional”, Wikipedia has different name for it; -- It is called WP:AWW. Surena 19:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Since the problem is with Livius, I don't see any reason to remove this:

"However, it can also be argued that similar gestures to those recorded on the Cylinder were made by some conquering monarchs in contemporary Babylon and the surrounding area. According to this argument, "the Cyrus Cylinder is a normal building inscription within the Assyrian-Babylonian tradition, and can certainly not be regarded as some declaration of human rights"^[6]."

Note 6: "A. Kuhrt "The Cyrus Cylinder and Achaemenid imperial policy" in Journal of Studies of the Old Testament 25 pp. 83-97, B. van der Spek, "Did Cyrus the Great introduce a new policy towards subdued nations? Cyrus in Assyrian perspective" in Persica 10 pp. 273-285, M. Dandamaev A Political History of the Achaemenid Empire, pp. 52-53. The quotation is from Dandamaev."

Well, I put it here to prevent war editions. I believe it is not POV because it is balanced with the previous part (Frye, the UN, etc). So if you agree, just add it to the article.--Amizzoni 00:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Amélie Kuhrt of UCL (University College London) and her works are quite well known among the scholars and historians. She is anything but neutral; She has already lost her credibility and considered a biass person. Last year, she claimed that Cyrus was an not an Iranian at all! However, Muhammad Dandamev, is a different matter; - His views and works have always been considered as neutral sources. Nevertheless, we have to approach that issue from consensus view rather than pick one or two, to suit and serve our views (biasness). Surena 03:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV doesn't mean that we must use sources we consider neutral, it means that we must write about all the opposing opinions with neutrality, even if we think they are biased or foolish. And we must cite our sources. In the case of Kuhrt: we can cite an article that states Kuhrt's "The Cyrus Cylinder and Achaemenid imperial policy" is biased, but Kuhrt's assessments must stay -the reader will judge. So if you find an article or a book criticizing Kuhrt's view, so please add it. Concerning Dandamaev: Yes, a quotation can be used "to suit and serve our views". For example: suppose that Dandamaev wrote "[CB Walker, Kuhrt and van der Spek says that] the Cyrus Cylinder is a normal building inscription within the Assyrian-Babylonian tradition, and can certainly not be regarded as some declaration of human rights[, but I do not agree with them]", then I pick up "the Cyrus Cylinder is a normal building inscription within the Assyrian-Babylonian tradition, and can certainly not be regarded as some declaration of human rights", and voila! But it is not the case. The whole sentence says "CBF Walker correctly remarked that the Cyrus Cylinder is a normal building inscription within the Assyrian-Babylonian tradition, and can certainly not be regarded as some declaration of human rights (Walker 1972:159; see also Kuhrt 1983; Van der Spek 1982)." It is very explicit that Dandamaev does not think the Cyrus Cylinder is a declaration of human rights.--Amizzoni 06:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Sure. I have no objection with what you are implying here. My point is that we cannot reject the idea, on the bases of Kuhrt’s or Kuhrts-alike views. We have to hear both side of the stories, and then decide which school of though we wish to subscribe to. I personally believe Kuhrts-alike views with citations should be mentioned in the article, but in a scholarly manner. i.e. NO WP:AWW. PS. I personally, do not consider Kuhrt as a scholar, just because she lectures at UCL. With regard to your strong statement as: It is very explicit that Dandamaev does not think the Cyrus Cylinder is a declaration of human rights”, you must have a source that I’m not aware of! Both Dandamaev’s articles reading Cyrus are rejecting your statement [(dash) soas.com/CAIS/History/hakhamaneshian/Cyrus-the-great/Cyrus/cyrus_II.htm 1], [(dash) soas.com/CAIS/History/hakhamaneshian/Cyrus-the-great/Cyrus/cyrus_cylinder1.htm 2]. Surena 07:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

This articles are originally from the Encyclopedia Iranica as far as I know [3]. In fact, they don't contradict A Political History...--Amizzoni 20:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

That's fine with me. It would be even better if those who claim that the CC is a human rights charter start quoting scholarly articles published in, say, the twenty-first century.Jona Lendering 00:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment:' No body has claimed that the cylinder is a definite "Charter of Human Rights"; It is Considered to be one! However, you claim to be a historian, and as historian you should know better that you have to examine the evidence in a cultural and historical contexts, with cross-examinations form other sources. Cyrus Cylinder is being considered as charter of human rights in its' primitive form, not because he (Cyrus) himself said so (or as you mentioed Shah propagated in 70s), but because of the historical evidences to support his claim; evidently through number of sources; Jewish and Greek accounts, as well as cultural contexts, geopolitical formation of the ancient World. Nobody has claimed that the Achaemenid were god-sent angels (contrary to other nations' claim to be the chosen people!). Of course to manage a vast empire, you have to be brutal, but in general Achaemenids’ tolerance in ancient world was well known, to the point that even their Greek enemies, had testified and praised them. Imagine “Hitler” write an eulogy about himself, and not only twenty-five, but two hundred and fifty century later, still he cannot portray himself as “the Anointed of the God”, since his actions contradict his claim. However, Cyrus could back his claim,-- as mentioned through textual sources, as well as the Achaemenid Arts; evidently from Persepolis reliefs, which is showing harmony and peace.Surena 03:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The Persepolis reliefs were made by Darius, not Cyrus. But I agree that Cyrus was a nice exception in the history of the Near East. However, the issue is whether the CC can be used as evidence for this claim, and that is not the case. The text is stereotypical. We must look for other evidence. I propose to start anew, see next topic.Jona Lendering 11:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Waoo, I didn't know the Persepolis was built by Darius the Great – until now I though it was built by Russians :). Anyhow, I used Persepolis reliefs as example to portray the empire’s tolerance towards its subject-nations, which was based on Cyrus’ doctrine. Also, I have received communication form CAIS, and the picture of Darius statue at Susa that you claim is yours, in fact was taken by Iran’s Archaeological Research Centre in 1972. Also, they are saying that you never contacted them regarding any images, and whatever images that they have copied from your website, the attributions were made, according to your copyright policy. However, Karl Ribbentrop asked me that you should check their website and if you see any images were taken from your website, and the appropriate attributions were not made, they either can delete them or acknowledge you as the source. Surena 22:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

<>Does it really need its own article, its made the whole thing look a bit messy now, cant you just talk about the conflict of opinion in the main article.

[edit] Finding common ground

Okay, attempt to create something meaningful, in line with decent scholarship, and on which we can all agree.

(a) The latest textbook, which must be our main source of reference, and about which we can all agree, is Pierre Briant's brick, isn't it? (I mean, of course, Histoire de l' Empire Perse, 1995; English translation 2002). I know Briant is not perfect, but his book is simply the best summary there is.

(b) The latest meaningful publications are Kuhrt and R.J. van der Spek, we can all agree about that. So far, I have seen nobody claim anything that is more recent.

(c) The only valid text edition is Schaudig 2002.

I think this can be our common ground, and no one will challenge this. I propose to write an article that only refers to these articles, and not to older stuff (Dandamaev, Frye, etc.). If anyone disagrees, let him/her post articles, written after Briant's well-accepted synthesis, and explain why this particular article is important as an addition to Briant.Jona Lendering 10:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course not. I for one disagree -- Forget about Kuhrt; Kuhrt is far from scholar, and van der Spek although is a good scholar, but his a classist; However, Pierre Briant is a great scholar, expert in Achaemenid civilisation, and I personally have deepest respect for him; but relying on one or two scholars is not enough. Even Briant is relying on his predecessors’ research. Surena 11:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

But at least Briant and Van der Spek (a historian and expert in cuneiform, not a classicist) are a start. Perhaps you are a bit too severe on Kuhrt, because I think her idea belongs to the "wild thinking" that is necessary to break through our Greek sources (cf. Sancisi's "Let's assume that the Median Empire never existed"). But leaving Kuhrt aside, and accepting only references to Briant and Van der Spek, we have a pretty strong basis that is arguably mainstream. Does anyone know post-1995 articles that need to be included too?Jona Lendering 12:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Van der Spek works are mainly focused on Hellenism and Babylonian studies, and was educated as a Classist. However, they’re many great scholars, such as D. Stronach, J. Wisehöfer, J. Boardman, H. M. Koch, as well as Encyclopeida Iranica entires, that we can use for this article. Surena 13:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

PS. Another great scholar is “Albert de Jong”, and though he is linguist and specialised in Zoroastrian studies, but he is considered to be an authority in this field. I think he is the greatest Iranist that Holland has ever produced. Surena 16:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't let Van der Spek read this ;-) He's so proud that he's not a classicist (although he of course learned Greek and Latin, which is inevitable). And believe me I know this, because he used to be my boss when I worked at the Amsterdam Free University...

Meanwhile, how to proceed? I propose one of us must write a simple draft, put it online at the discussion page, and ask for comments. I had the impression that Rayis would write something. Another volunteer?Jona Lendering 14:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Jona. We don’t need to start another article. We can bring the current article to a respectable and neutral status, with no POV pushing. However, I know that you subscribe to the notion, that the purpose of “Cyrus Cylinder” was propaganda – and although I don’t share your view, but I do respect it. However, we can have an entry and call it “Conflicting Views” or "Disputing Views" (or whatever that is not bias), and use the published works of the real scholars, who have no personal or political interests in this matter, to convey the notion that you and others like you subscribe to. In this way, we do not offend Iranians, as they consider Cyrus Cylinder as the Holy Grail; everybody would be happy and the article won’t be vandalised again– Also most importantly the readers can draw their own conclusions -- Of course subject to everyone’s consensus. Surena 15:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Surena: We're absolutely in agreement about this; I had more or less the same idea of inserting a 'conflicting views' section.Jona Lendering 01:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

"In any event, the clemency Herodotus ascribed to Cyrus the Great, the aptitudes Xenophon saw in him, his mission according to the Old Testament and his piety as described in the Babylon inscription - all combine in the eyes of many observers to form a harmonious character study of the first Persian king, the historian Joseph Wisehöfer wrote about Cyrus in 1996". Surena, I'm afraid you have to cite passages that explicitly refer to the Cyrus Cylinder. It belongs to Cyrus the Great article, not to here. Where Wisehöfer talks about the Cyrus Cylinder (pp. 44, 49, 87), he calls it "an Achaemenid propaganda document intended to legitimize Cyrus's rule over Babylonia" (p. 87).--Amizzoni 02:25, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

So before adding something to the article, I suggest to put it here for discussion. --Amizzoni 02:26, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Are there still controversial remarks on the article or can we start removing the tags? --Rayis 20:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, yes, of course there are. I have written a new draft for the section "The Cylinder as a Charter of Human Rights", tell me what do you think:

"The Cyrus Cylinder has been described as the world’s first charter of human rights,^[7] and it was translated into all official U.N. languages in 1971.^[8][9] A replica of the cylinder is kept at the United Nations Headquarters in New York City in the second floor hallway, between the Security Council and the Economic and Social Council chambers.^[10]

Passages in the text have been interpreted as expressing Cyrus’ respect for humanity. It promotes a form of religious tolerance and freedom.^[11] He allowed his subjects to continue worshipping their gods, despite his own monotheist beliefs.^[12] Cyrus' generous policies, support for local religions and stated opposition to repression and tyranny did win him support from his subjects.^[13]

However, it can also be argued that the cylinder is a stereotypical bulding inscription within the Assyrian-Babylonian tradition. By this argument, it can not be considered a declaration of human rights, but a piece of propaganda^[14]. Of course, it does not mean that the Persians imposed a tyrannical rule oven their new subjects; in fact, they are widely regarded as more tolerant than their predesessors Baylonians and Assyrians.

As Joseph Wisehöfer wrote about Cyrus in 1996^[15]:

“In any event, the clemency Herodotus ascribed to Cyrus the Great, the aptitudes Xenophon saw in him, his mission according to the Old Testament and his piety as described in the Babylon inscription - all combine in the eyes of many observers to form a harmonious character study of the first Persian king.”

"

And R.N. Frye in 1963^[16]:

“In the victories of the Persians… what was different was the new policy of reconciliation and together with this was the prime aim of Cyrus to establish a pax Achaemenica… If one were to assess the achievements of the Achaemenid Persians, surely the concept of One World,… the fusion of peoples and cultures in one ‘Oecumen’ was one of their important legacies.”

At least one translation of the Cyrus Cylinder has been elaborated with more promises and can still be found in many websites.^[17]. It can be recognized for the mention of Ahura Mazda and for frases such as: "I will impose my monarchy on no nation. Each is free to accept it, and if any one of them rejects it, I shall never resolve on war to reign."

For the content of the notes, see the source (click on edit). Feel free to post any comment.--Amizzoni 22:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

PS: In "in fact, they are widely regarded as more tolerant than their predesessors Baylonians and Assyrians" we can add a reference to the article from the British Museum webpage.--Amizzoni 02:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by Amizzoni

Please discuss any major edits here prior to adding to the article. Kurt and Livius are not considered as neutral sources. Kurt is well known for her hatred towards Iranians, and Livius is a product of one or two individuals (sorry Jona), which contains their personal opinions (more like a Weblog) than a neutral and scholarly based website, to be used as a reliable source here. Also as discussed before, we can add a new section to the article such as “conflicting views”, in a respectable manner, which is free from any WP:AWW words, (i.e. “political motives” rather than “propaganda”) or POV pushing to accommodate the notion that you, Jona and alike are subscribing to, without insulting a nation's identity!← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 06:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

PS. I've reinstalled "{{totaldispute}" tag, to prevent any edit war - However, other tag "{{OR}" is no longer required here, since all the data are supported by generally reliable and checkable citations. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 06:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The same old problem

I made major edits because the discussion seemed to be death, and because removing sourced material is vandalism. I agree with you concerning the tags, but I'm affraidd I disagree about almost all. We have to say "Kuht say ...., but .... considers her not neutral". Do you have any source that considers Kuht not neutral? Please add it, but Kuht must stay. This is what NPOV means, to show all the conflicting views. And until you find any source that considers Kuht not neutral, Kuhrt must stay. Note that Dandamaev (in A Political History and his Iranica articles) and Weisehofer cite her article on the Cylinder, and both express nothing but agreement. About the word "propaganda", it is used by Weisehofer, so it must stay. But if you have a source that states "I consider that the use of words such as 'propaganda' to describe the Cyrus Cylinder is a way to insult the national identity of Iran", please, add it, but that Weisehofer uses the word "propaganda" must stay. As you say, conflicting views, but why in a new section, since all the conflicting views are about the subject of human rights? About Livius: it is not in the level of a blog, not at all. Livius is indexed in Abzu, the list Ancient Near East online resources of the University of Chicago. Moreover, it is the only source that says that there are elaborated "translations" of the cylinder -something that we all who have read any scholarly edition of the cylinder know, let agree in this point.

To sum up:

1. I believe that Kuhrt is an scholarly source, so there is no doubt that her statements must stay. You disagree.
2. I believe that the words -like "propaganda"- that our -scholarly- sources use must stay. You disagree.
3. I believe that Livius is neither a scholarly journal nor a blog-level site, but we can consider it as a serious source, as is done all over Wikipedia. You disagree.

Too much disagreement, so I suggest calling a mediator. --Amizzoni 19:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Amizzoni - the discussion may not be active, but it is very much alive. As suggested above you can open an entry and calling it Dispute/Conflicting view or whatever name you want, as long as is NPOV and no WP:AWW to convey the notion that you are subscribed to - same as the section of "Holocaust denial" in the Holocaust article, since the Cylinder's significance for Iranians is as the Holocaust issue for the Jews. With regard to the translation of the Cylinder that is not of Jona, and Livius is not the only blog that has used the translation - you can find it all over the Internet; also Livius it is all over Wikipedia, since Jona has placed it everywhere to promote his own persoanl website (check his contributions!) – Finally you want to call a mediator, by all mean, please do so, I welcome the suggestion. In the meanwhile I open an entry under the “Conflicting Views”, and you may use your Kuhrt and Kuhrt-alike argues, there as long as is no WP:AWW, and accordance with Wikepedia WP:MOS policy. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 02:03, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

PS. I have created an entry (Conflicting views), and transferred the relevant data to that section, of course with the tag to end this edit war. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 02:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

"Weasel words are words or phrases that seemingly support statements without attributing opinions to verifiable sources, lending them the force of authority without letting the reader decide whether the source of the opinion is reliable." There are no weasel words in the prhase you removed, since it had its comprehensive footnote with all the scholars who support it. With regard to Livius, you misunderstood what I tried to say. Livius is important because is the only source, as far as I know, that states that there are online fake translations of the Cyrus Cylinder. But, well, let stop the discussion here, at least until a mediation started.Amizzoni 02:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we are closer to a solution than I believed. There just a couple things I want to point out:

1. The conflicting views section should be merged into the human rights section, since the conflicting views are about the human rights. I mean something like this: Section: ==The Cylinder and Human Rights==. Subsection 1: ===The Cylinder as a Charter of Human Rights=== (the present "The Cylinder as a Charter of Human Rights" section]. Subsection 2: ===Denial of the relation of the Cylinder with Human Rights=== (all Kuhrt and Kuhrt-like arguments).
2. You have to allow me to write a conprehensive abstract of all Kuhrt and Kuhrt-like arguments, always stating that they are the author's opinion (I mean, "Kuhrt argues that ...").
3. I'd be very pleased, believe me, if you wrote a third sub-section on the response to Kuhrt-like's arguments (for instance, that words like "propaganda" are considered offensive by Iranians).

If the sections were reorganized as I show it in point 1, I believe would be able to remove the NPOV tags. It is not the solution of all our problems (for instance, it ramains the usage of Livius as a source, and one or two minor points), but I think we are in the good way and we don't need any mediation.--Amizzoni 03:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I do strongly object to the merger that you have proposed. Here we want to convey both sides of the argument, without confusing or deceiving the readers. By having two distinctively separate sections for the each school of thought, then the reader(s) can draw his/her own conclusion. We may not live a democratic world, but let's practise it here.

Also, since we have "Cyrus cylinder#Conflicting Views" section, I as "one of the editors" have no objection of using a comprehensive abstract of all Kuhrt and Kuhrt-like arguments. This would allow both parties to contribute/edit their relevant sections, which are supported, by reputable sources.← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 06:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, you're right. Neither do I want to confuse or deceive the reader. I've just moved the conflicting views section above the biblical one, so if you agree feel free to remove the POV tags.--Amizzoni 20:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Great - it seems we getting somewhere. So I take the liberty to remove them. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 04:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

___________________________________

I am concerned over the tone of this article and the fact that the 'conflicting views' section only gets 2 sentences while the 'pro-human rights charter' section has a quote from a scholar written 45 years ago (and pre-Acheamenid History Workshop days). I am also concerned with this passage: "Cyrus' generous policies, support for local religions and stated opposition to repression and tyranny did win him support from his subjects." The Darius Behistun inscription clearly identifies 2 revolts in Babylon in which the name of Nabonidus was invoked as a 'call to arms' - not only does this cast doubt on the whole Nabonidus the Tyrant issue that the Cylinder expounds, but it also makes this statement false (at least for Babylon). Again, this is all related to the general tone of this article and I think a much more 'measured' approach is better for a contested topic (and a topic that will probably remain contested for the foreseeable future).

I agree with you, and I see only one solution: we have to expand the "conflicting views" section. In fact I promised to do it, but I haven't had the time. So if you can do it I'd feel be pleased. About the Richard Frye quote, I really have no problem, we only have to balance him with with post-AHW scholars in the "conflicting views" section. I believe we should write more about what scholars as Frye or the Commemoration Cyrus contributors used to say in the 60's and 70's, of course stating that their view is not much followed nowadays. New doesn't mean right, so I think it is important in an encyclopedia article to show some old ideas -even more in Wikipedia, where we don't have any limit in the article's extension. Amizzoni 17:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear 82.7.60.108 - As Amizzoni suggested you can expand the section as long as the entries are supported by checkable/reputable references. However, if you are planning a major edit, please discuss them in advance in order to prevent any possible edit war. Thanks. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 08:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

IN URGENT NEED OF CORRECTIONS

As the wiki entry stands it does the very thing you profess you aim to avoid. It deceives the reader by presenting the Cylinder as the de facto first Human Rights Charter while only acknowledges some conflicting views in a passage resembling a footnote. Since the characterization of the Cylinder as a ‘Human Rights Charter’ only reflects one view of the debate, the layout of the entry should be such as to eliminate any possible bias that could arise from its presentation. In my view the main section of the entry should be entitled “The debate surrounding the Cylinder” or similar, under which all views should be presented thoroughly. The section presenting the characteristic passages according to you, is loaded with bias as they are taken completely out of context. And the context of those passages is of the outmost importance in judging the exact nature of the inscription. In addition, you create the impression that the only significant passages are those that revolve around the debate and by that the wider historical significance of the Cylinder is undermined. The ‘Biblical Significance’ section along with its title, to someone aware of the debate seems to reinforce that perceived bias. ‘Biblical References’ should be more appropriate. At its present state the entry cannot be considered credible. Under the title ‘The Cylinder as a Charter of Human Rights’ you state that the cylinder has been described as such and for the purpose of verification you provide a link that is itself biased. In it we learn that “The cylinder describes the Great King not as a conqueror, but as a liberator and the legitimate successor to the crown of Mesopotamia” as if the Cylinder is an objective source expressing the view of an objective judge whereas in reality it expresses the view, Cyrus himself –rightly or wrongly- wanted his people to have of him. The unchecked manifestations of admiration towards the Cylinder from your part, that are spread throughout the entry, only serve to discredit the presentation of the inscription. They alienate those who disagree with you, and deceive the rest.

62.30.182.16 01:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The official site of the british museum disagrees with your assertion regarding the cylinder being the first bill of human rights.

http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/c/cyrus_cylinder.aspx

"This cylinder has sometimes been described as the 'first charter of human rights', but it in fact reflects a long tradition in Mesopotamia where, from as early as the third millennium BC, kings began their reigns with declarations of reforms"

So why do you keep insisting on this crap? There is a lot of sick persian nationalism in this article.

Whether the cylinder is the first bill of rights or not makes no difference to Persian nationalism as the country was still the worlds first democracy as we know it.
:I've made some edits to hopefully make the article more nuetral. I would like to edit religious significance and expand the history section later when i get time. I also want to reword where it says Cyrus was a monotheist as that claim is rediculous. The cylinder itself says that Cyrus asks all the restored Gods to pray for his long life and he calls Marduk the Lord of the Gods which is definately plural. I tried another edit (whole page) but got an error telling me there is a blacklisted link. I never added another link so it must be an existing so that needs tracking down (I don't have the time atm). I'm no good at boxes so can someone add the entire translation? I think it is needed and this layout and translation looks ok. Wayne 15:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please discuss prior to any major edits

Please discuss prior to any major edits as agreed before (see above), to prevent any possible edit wars. There is a section that is named "Conflicting Views" to accommodate the sceptics – of course must be accompanied by references, rather than “here say” which is POV! Also please do not remove the entries that are supported by citations. Xodd 16:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Please read what the "major" edits were before reverting.

• I did not remove an entry supported by citations.....I moved it to another section and added a second new citation.
• The Fry quote I deleted due to his statement being opinion in it's entirety. He may have believed it but the archaelogical evidence is the opposite so, if included it should be in the Conflicting Views section however I don't feel it has a place at all.
• I added nothing new apart from references. I moved a paragraph, deleted an inappropriate quote and I reworded a little to improve the grammar and flow.
• "Conflicting views" should be for sceptics or controversial opinions and there were no such entries in it which was why I moved the single view that was there to the body and deleted the now empty section . What was originally there is established scientific fact that made the article more POV by being left there.

If you have a problem with what was basically a cosmetic edit we can discuss it. If no objections I will rv back in a day or so. Wayne 01:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Obviously you disagree with the concept of the cylinder as the charter of human rights - that is fine – I do respect your opinion and others alike. However, to create a balance in the article the "Conflicting Views" has been created. So why don't you add your inputs in that section which are backed it with citations - rather than deleting Frye’s quote? In this manner we let the readers to draw their own conclusions. Thanks. Xodd 09:53, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no "opinion". I make use of facts. The Cylinder is still a charter of human rights that has great historical significance and I edited nothing to change that view. Until recent years it was popularly believed to be the first but now it is known to be just the most complete and most comprehensive from that early. That doesn't deminish it's importance or invalidate what it has been used for. Do we leave the view supported by the evidence in the conflicting views section as it is now or do we put the unsupported popular view there? Either can be seen as POV. Conflicting views is not really required. There is the popular view and the archaelogical view and both can be accomodated in the same section without conflict. In fact the popular view comprises most of artical even with the supported view expanded and this should satify everyone.

Let's look at Fry's quote. "what was different was the new policy of reconciliation and together with this was the prime aim of Cyrus to establish a pax Achaemenica… If one were to assess the achievements of the Achaemenid Persians, surely the concept of One World,… the fusion of peoples and cultures in one ‘Oecumen’ was one of their important legacies". It was not new. The Egyptians had been doing the exact same thing a thousand years earlier and it appears the practice was continued without break all the way to Cyrus's time so he had precedent for his actions. The fusion of peoples was a standard practice to create buffer states and would have been a legacy if it had been continued after the fall of the Empire but it was completely ignored until modern times as we were teaching in schools the legacy of the Greek form of democracy not the Persian which was in fact closer to our modern democracy than the Greek. In fact even today Cyrus's empire is still refered to as the bad guy in Mediteranean history. Just look at how this empire, still following Cyrus's reforms, was portrayed in the movie "300". Fry's quote is rhetoric not supported by the evidence and therefore should not be needed. Wayne 13:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Wayne, what you say is that if you disagree with Frye then you can feel free to erase it. Instead, it's better to add a new reference that contradicted Frye's one. In any case, now I don't see what's the point of Frye's quote: it doesn't even mention the Cyrus Cylinder. I'd say the same for the last two paragraphs. I prefer to have all views in the same section, too, since all of them are about "The Cylinder as a Charter of Human Rights". So I've made a new daft, tell me what you think:

"The Cyrus Cylinder has been described as the world’s first charter of human rights,^[18][19] and it was translated into all official U.N. languages in 1971.^[20] A replica of the cylinder is kept at the United Nations Headquarters in New York City in the second floor hallway, between the Security Council and the Economic and Social Council chambers.^[21]

Passages in the text have been interpreted as expressing Cyrus’ respect for humanity, and as promoting a form of religious tolerance and freedom.^[22] By this argument, Cyrus' generous policies, support for local religions and stated opposition to repression and tyranny did win him support from his subjects.^[23]

However, there are many scholars who disagree with the concept of Cylinder as a Charter of Human Rights, and have argued that such a concept is alien to the historical context -they prefer to describe it as a building inscription or a propaganda document instead-, and that similar gestures to those recorded on the Cylinder were made by some conquering monarchs in ancient Babylon and the surrounding area.^[24]"

It is more or less my idea of how the section should be, at least until it were expanded.Amizzoni 16:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

All credit to your version but i feel my reverted section is a better compromise. Mine was short (a single sentence), had two reliable references and was unambiguous. The cylinder may have been, and probably was largely, a propaganda document but that is irrelevant. You only need to look at practices in any country you care to name today where a good law is often passed before an election and then advertised as propaganda to get votes.
I agree that there is no point in including Fry's quote. What is says is already mentioned in the very first sentence only better in light of what we know now.
Now what do we do about the incorrect claim Cyrus was a monotheist? I still think some mention is needed of his religious tolerance. Sort that out and I think the section would look reasonable. Wayne 02:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Of interest is that I looked for foundation texts earlier than Cyrus's and found the translation of Nabonidus's own cylinder. It is basically the same as Cyrus's except that he said he rebuilt the temples of the other Gods in Babylon and placed their statues there (because it was what they wanted). This indicates not only that religious freedom already existed but that the temples were in good repair when Cyrus took over so if Cyrus wanted to look better (in religious matters) than Nabonidus he had no choice but to relocate the Gods and their temples away from Babylon. OR on my part so i'm not asking for inclusion but interesting to know. Wayne 02:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the important thing is to state clearly that most scholars nowadays reject the view of the Cyrus Cylinder as related in any way to humans rights (something that is absent in your version). But you're right, it was quite ambiguous and perhaps the concept of propaganda should be discussed in another place. So here is another version of the last paragraph:

However, there are many scholars who disagree with the concept of Cylinder as a Charter of Human Rights, and have argued that such a concept is alien to the historical context. They also point out that Mesopotamia has a long tradition dating back to the third millennium BC of Kings making similar declarations when beginning their reigns and thus Cyrus' own declaration was neither unique nor the first.^[25][26]"

As for the religious tolerance, I think the Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia reference is OK for now, but of course much remains to be written. I don't remember any reputable source calling Cyrus' a monotheist, and the British Museum reference that the article gives now is empty (at least in my PC): "He allowed his subjects to continue worshipping their gods, despite his own monotheist beliefs.^[27]". About the Nabonidus Cylinder, it's an interesting piece and relevant to the article. I remember that there were drawn parallels with Assyrian royal inscriptions too. So I repeat, much remains to be written. Amizzoni 03:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

That looks ok. We could even add a reference for the Nabonidus translation after the words "similar declarations" for comparison.
I think we also need to work out what translation to use. The one in the content section is a now rejected translation and although similar to the one the UN used, it is different so shouldn't be in that section as confirmation for the UN. We should also have a box at the end of the article with both the original text and translation. A problem I've found is that universities have no consensus on which translation to use and some even use the discredited Ahura one. The Livius translation looks to be the most widespread and I would choose this site over others with the same translation as it also has the benifit of having a page on how to read Babylonian texts. Wayne 05:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

When you say the "Ahura one", do you refer to the "translation" that mentions Ahura Mazda [4]? In fact it is not a translation, the last parts were entirely made up -and none university use it [5]. The quote from Wiesehöfer's book is originally from Oppenheim's translation, published in James B. Pritchard Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament in the '50s. It's quite old, but updates are quite new, and some universities still use it. So we may replace Wiesehöfer's quote with something from Schaudig's translation (I mean, the adaptation of it at Livius.org [6]). There are two problems with posting the whole translation and translitaration: 1- It belong to Wikisource, and 2- except Rogers 1912 (too old!), they are copyrighted. Amizzoni 18:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I did find one university that referenced the Ahura Mazda version. The Rogers is old and I tried to find recent translations but they all were much like Rogers/Schaudig with differences that were insignificant and mostly only available in books and not online. My OR is that perhaps the Weisehofer is probably biased to the Human Rights concept for (possibly political) or POV purposes. I don't think it's fraudulant as it's just the choice of POV words used so I'm not claiming that.
I think that section is ok for now as a base to work from for possible future edits.

What are thoughts on moving "The characteristic passages of this (earlier popular translation of the) Cyrus inscription are: xxxxxx" to the end of the UN part of the Human Rights section? Of course we can edit it down to the relevant sentences used by the UN to shorten it considerably. Then possibly adding the same more current? translation passages for comparison at the end of the alternate view? That puts both versions in for readers to check themselves.

Now comes the tough one. "Biblical Significance". It's not too bad but there is repetition that needs fixing and I think a bit on the view that possibly the prophesies were written by several people over a long period of time is needed, including mention of the relevant verses being possibly written after the events they "predicted". The WP articles on them admits this so it should be no problem to add it here in some form without diminishing the religious view. Wayne 05:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppenheim's translation is not "biased to the Human Rights concept for (possibly political) or POV purposes" -not at all. Note that Weisehofer quotes it, and he's far away from the human rights conception. So I suggest simply replacing the quotation with something from the more updated Schaudig's. About what you tell me that an university uses the Ahura Mazda fake, what can I say? I makes me feel very sorry. An as for the biblical matter, I think you're right. I'll be absent from here for a few weeks, so I leave it on your hands. Amizzoni 04:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

"Whether the cylinder is the first bill of rights or not makes no difference to Persian nationalism as the country was still the worlds first democracy as we know it."

Τhe worlds first democracy as we know it? Wayne you must be joking. what was the percentage of the population of persian empire that took part in the elections. was it above 0,00000000000001 %? There was only one vote in the ballot.

Actually Cyrus was the first imperialist and he was the first to proclaim himself king of the world 'by the grace of god'. In this respect everyone copied him. From Alexander the GREAT and the Romans till the British and the French. So the Persians nationalists should be proud of him. At least there was a persian first in the world's history. So stop insisting on the foolishness of the world’s first charter of human rights and find a reliable source for the translation of the text.

'The Cyrus Cylinder has been described as the world’s first charter of human rights' Described as the world first charter of human rights by whom? Historians, elmer fudd, or maybe the late persian shah.

And why did you remove the link from livius.org? (http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/cyrus_cylinder.html). Maybe because Jona Lendering disagrees with the fairy tale that was created by the persian chauvinists.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/historic_periods.php. So why do you use him when at the same time you question his credibility?