Talk:Cultural relationship between the Welsh and the English

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This article was nominated for deletion on 25 February 2008. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

[edit] "Anti-Welsh sentiment" - AFD and possible rewrite/expansion

This is a little sad isn't it? Hardly calculated to counter the English belief in an hysterical Welsh victim-complex! I am Welsh but I do not go to sleep at night worried that the English do not love me enough and may love the Scots more. Why not include, "Welshing on a deal" and "Taffy was a thief"? --MJB (talk) 01:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

It does seem to be a problem to me though. I'm Welsh and I've personally encountered a fair deal of discrimination and hassle because of my Welshness (I should add I am living in Wales too - but in a very Anglicised area). Though maybe it isn't a Wikipediaworthy article even though it clearly is a real issue. And incidentally, I consider "Taffy was a thief" a racist and nasty little rhyme.88.104.232.104 (talk) 18:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you,and I'm not being racist but I do look down upon Welsh people are they ruined my family's holiday.User:Agent008 —Preceding comment was added at 18:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

AAGILL IS SCOTTISH! ANNE ROBINSON HAS WELSH RELATIVES! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.206.82.24 (talk) 22:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This article was nominated for deletion (see above link) and just about survived. If it is not improved then it may be taken back to AFD for further discussion in a few months. Neıl ☎ 09:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

In the deletion discussion I proposed that the article should be expanded and rewritten as "Cultural relationships between England and Wales". This is the subject of both humour and (occasional) racism from both sides (and, for instance, the subject of a recent book - see [1]). The article would link in with Welsh nationalism and Welsh culture, and also address the widespread English fear/distaste of those. It would also address the influence of the Welsh on modern English culture - eg in politics generally, and in specific areas such as Liverpool and Bristol. I propose doing some research (I'm not an expert, but I have lived close to the Welsh-English border most of my life) and improving/expanding the article when I can give it some time, hopefully within the next few weeks. In the meantime, all (non-racist) suggestions will be gratefully received at my talk page. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

First attempt posted now. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

For what it is worth, an excellent job turning around an initially feeble entry. --MJB (talk) 17:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I might recommend adding this (I'm thinking of the Robert Relfesque "only for sale to a Welsh speaker" part near the bottom), this, this and this. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 09:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I got bored playing round with it in draft (and learning a lot about Welsh history in the process!) so put it up in the hope that others could improve it - feel free to add bits yourselves! I think it particularly needs an expanded section on the recent (20th century) past, sports rivalry, etc., but I'm happy for others to make what changes they want (and if I think they're inappropriate I'll just change them back again, of course...) Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

above 3 comments copied from my user page for completeness - Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:26, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Language

"Because the Welsh language has different rules of grammar and syntax from English, and a widely different vocabulary, it is seen by many English speakers as difficult to learn and speak. Letters such as w and y are vowels in Welsh, but often used as consonants in English. Welsh also makes extensive use of digraphs such as ll and dd, and consonant mutations."

I'm not sure this belongs here, for the first part, evidently as a different language Welsh has a different grammar. The fact that the writing system is different and uses digraphs (English does too) is neither here nor there for this article.

What would be good would be a section on "Language issues", highlighting the often English disdain for the Welsh language (I heard someone the other day get pissed off because of the people concerned over poor translations into Welsh (see e.g. here), and referring to the language as "Klingonese" — reprehensible behaviour in my opinion. Also, the lack of effort on the part of English immigrants into Wales to learn the language (I am as culpable for this as any). Also interesting to mention would be the attitude of anglophone Welsh people towards the language (including a mention of the anti-Welsh attitude of Welsh Labour wrt. train announcements and other efforts to increase the visibility (or audibility!) of Welsh in Wales.

I'll leave it in for now, but these are things to think about. - Francis Tyers · 15:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree with these points - my reason for referring (inadequately) to the language differences was to try and get behind the "problem" that some (most?) English people have with what they see as a difficult / alien language, and the implications that has for how they perceive people who speak it. Need further help on this - I am not an expert on these issues. Can someone on the Wales forum work on this? Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

It would be a good place to start. I'll also try and dig out some references and post them here. - Francis Tyers · 15:57, 24 April 2008 (UTC)