Talk:Cryoseism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Portal This article is part of WikiProject Earthquakes, a project to systematically present information on earthquakes, seismology, plate tectonics, and related subjects. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit the article attached to this page (see Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ for more information), or join by visiting the project page.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale for WikiProject Earthquakes.
	If you have rated this article please consider adding assessment comments. Help with this template

	It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality.
	The Free Image Search Tool (FIST) may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

Suggest using inline citations using {{cite web}}. – Chacor 10:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for feedback. - SpLoT / ^(talk) 10:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Aside from cite web formatting, this article's a good start, though there were an excessive number of links in the second section. I did a minor copyedit and toned down the number of wikilinks. --Coredesat 16:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

References in {{cite web}} done up. Now searching for other sources. - SpLoT / ^(talk) 09:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The article deals a lot about glacier-related phenomena, and then states that areas of permeable material (eg gravel) are most susceptible to cryoseisms. This seems to be, if not contradictory, then at least very confusing! Pikiwedian 18:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Article has some rough edges

This page is confused. Ice quakes exist, and involve cracking of ice under stress or accelerated sliding of glaciers - however, there's little to do with sudden melting or freezing in the process.

The idea of sudden freezing is unfounded, so far as I know. In fact, considerable heat has to be withdrawn from a volume to bring the process of freezing to completion, I doubt it can happen explosively even in theory. Similarly, considerable heat has to be added to fully melt some ice - it is not a runaway process.

Also, the ground doesn't contract when it freezes, it expands, in contrast to the claims of reference 2, which clearly has little authority.

For ground cracking to have intensity VI: VI. Strong Felt by all; many frightened and run outdoors, walk unsteadily. Windows, dishes, glassware broken; books off shelves; some heavy furniture moved or overturned; a few instances of fallen plaster. Damage slight. I'd like to see some evidence, sounds very unlikely to me. The references on intensity of shaking are ancient by scientific standards - many from the back in the 1950s, where's the evidence from the greatly improved seismic networks and seismic data processing in the last decade? (John 05:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

This page needs at least an overhaul. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vidale (talk • contribs) 23:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC).

Have you read our Wikipedia:Deletion policy? It's unlikely this will be deleted. Improve, don't destroy. – Chacor 02:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Please be civil about it. AFD is not a cleanup tag; if you think it should be cleaned up, put a cleanup tag on it. Sending it to AFD is the wrong thing to do here. --Coredesat 05:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It would be less work to start from scratch than modify this. Maybe if the author reads this and realizes cracking and sliding can be sudden, but the freezing and thawing are not on seismic timescales, he/she can take a pass at it. (John 05:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

And who are you to say reference 2 "clearly has little authority"? No one makes such judgements here. Doesn't matter if you're an expert on the subject or not. If it's relevant, and meets wikipedia policy, it's fine. Maybe you're looking for Citizendium. – Chacor 05:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Confusing, I didn't send anything to AFD, I didn't even know the term until I Googled it a minute ago. As for reference 2, if it says water contracts when it freezes, it is simply factually incorrect. I came to look at this entry because two grad students in my department asked me what is this thing "a cryoseism", which mainly exists in Wikipedia, so I'm trying to reconcile the entry with known geophysics. I took a quick pass at editing, so maybe you're all right that improvement is not so tough as I thought, and preferable. (John 05:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

Yeah, it is normally easier to cleanup by editing than trying to send something for deletion if it can be saved. Not sure where it says water contracts when freezes, though, the only reference I find to contraction is "the cracks are caused by the ground having contracted rapidly due to the sudden cold". No mention of water... – Chacor 05:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess I overreacted - the original beginning - merging of glacial ice quakes and frost cracking - was my main objection. The sentence you quoted is the source of my irritation. As the other references state, it is the difference in volume between water and ice that is the main force involved, the additional stress from simply temperature change is probably negligible, and present whether the ground is hot or cold. Now that I read the edited version, it is actually fairly interesting. I'd delete my negative remarks above, but presume leaving an unedited trail is the norm around here. (John 05:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

As so-called main author of this article, I'd like to comment a little. Firstly, let me make clear that I am not an expert in geology or tectonics. Therefore I am unable to answer the many queries that pop up in this discussion. I wrote the article with no prior knowledge of the phenomenon at all, and I hope that other editors and readers can understand why that 'confusing' tag is up there. If any editor finds any troubling or obviously factually inaccurate information in the article, feel free to change it as necessary. Please, if you are more knowledgeable about this comparatively obscure subject, remove, expand or rewrite as appropriate. I'd like to add that notability is vastly different from cleanup. I will keep this page watched now. Thanks for the heightened interest, SpLoT // 09:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I suggest one source of confusion for this page is defining a cryoseism as a "frost quake", in the first sentence, and then including quite a different phenomena, the sudden glacier movement, as a type of cryoseism, in the 2nd paragraph. The two phenomena are quite different and distinct. For example - a lot of the text in the "Effects" and "Precursors" sections does not apply to a large range of glacier-related events. I would suggest a new page for "glacial earthquakes", as discussed for example by Ekstrom in their Science article (302, 622-624 (2003)). Your thoughts John ? Stephen 03:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Makes good sense to me. Separate discussions of frost quakes and glacial quakes, maybe with both referenced to cryoseisms. Quakes in the soil and quakes in ice have little in common. There is a new set of glacial quake observations coming from Wiens group at Washington U in St Louis from observations of Antarctic glacers as well as Nettles at Columbia looking at Greenland, which might be material to expand the glacial quake discussion soon.(John 06:02, 13 May 2007 (UTC))