Talk:Crater Lake

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Good article Crater Lake has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
June 30, 2007 Good article nominee Listed
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[edit] Older comments

Ugh, that photo of Crater Lake is terrible. The entry talks about Crater Lake's famous deep blue color, but has this as a picture?

I was there this past weekend and have some great pictures - I think a change is in order

The one that's there has a nice perspective of most of the lake. If we can't get both perspective and the blue color, then this one could just be moved further down in the article. I agree about its color--even I've got photos that show the amazing blue, although the photo compositions aren't all that great, so I've not uploaded. Elf | Talk 22:14, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I have some photos of crater lake that show very dark blue color. I also have a series of picture that I took panning around in 180° view angle. I need to find a good software to stitch these adjacent views into a panorama. Any good recommendations of such tool? Kowloonese 22:22, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Adobe Photoshop does an excellent job; Adobe Photoshop Elements does a halfway decent job at a fraction of the price. Elf | Talk 22:42, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New Photo

I was the first poster here earlier today - I've uploaded one of my panoramas of the lake I took this weekend. Haven't fixed the blending issues yet, but as soon as I do I plan to replace this file with the new one. For now, this one is much better than what was on there by itself. --Boy1der80 00:31, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Nice! Elf | Talk 01:08, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Lovely photo! Thanks very much for contributing it. — Catherine\talk 03:31, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More photos

I have some more photos of Crater Lake on my Flickr site that I could transfer over to the Commons, but I'm not sure if they're needed for this article or not. You can find them here [1], and I can upload higher-res versions of any of those if folks would like. MC MasterChef 10:36, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I'd say that if you have a photo that provides a significantly different view or info, then yes; otherwise you might try Crater Lake National Park to add photos of the rest of the park, including for example the lodge, the heavy snow on the roads a good portion of hte year, etc. Elf | Talk 15:40, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mt Mazama eruption

Standard radiocarbon (14C) dating of the eruption is 6860 BP, but this does not mean year 4860 BC. Instead, this mean ca 5700 BC.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_year

Compare calibration curves according to http://www.calpal-online.de/ and http://radiocarbon.ldeo.columbia.edu/research/radcarbcal.htm

Sincerely, 84.10.74.91, Poland

[edit] WP:LAKES

Em3rald 21:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

  • I have added this lake to WP:LAKES and as such have included the infobox as referenced in the banner shown above. I also reformatted the article in terms of layout with the purpose of consolidating elements. For example, the picture regarding the clarity of the water should logically be associated with the section about water quality. I also moved the panoramic to the top of the page and formatted it to about 400 pixels. This should display correctly on monitor resolutions upwards of 1024x768. If anyone has lower resolution than this, you might try to fix the layout such that the panoramic doesn't cause formatting issues. In the event that it proves too dificult to format successfully, move the panoramic to the bottom of the article. Em3rald 21:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I see User:Vsmith shuffled the images ... unfortunately, it caused some other issues ... I will format again.
Works, but created a one word paragraph width at the start of the geology section which was a problem - reduced image size to standard thumb for a better fit. Vsmith 23:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Good job. Looks great, thanks for the help! Now to verify some of the facts & figures ... Em3rald 15:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Depth

So is it 594 or 597 m deep? We should only show one 'official' depth, even if different sources vary slightly. The main part of the article says its 4000 feet deep, the sidebar says nearly 2000. Thats a huge discrepency.

The 4000 foot reference is to the depth of the caldera, not the lake. It has filled in since its creation so that the bottom of the water is much less than it might have been at formation. Also, the water level is almost a thousand feet below the crater rim. —EncMstr 02:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Using the USGS offically benchmarked surface elevation for Crater Lake of 1883 m, the maximum depth of the lake is at 594 m, plus or minus two meters to account for measurement error. The volume of the lake (18.7 cubic km) is the product of the average depth (0.35 km) times the surface area (53.4 square km).
It is interesting to note that the NPS uses a different surface elevation for Crater Lake (1881 m). This leads to differences betweem the NPS and the USGS on estimates of lake depth and volume. On the other hand, the NPS and the USGS agree on the value for the average depth (350 m), but mathematically this shouldn't be possible, given that the average depth, volume, and maximum depth are all directly dependent on the value assumed for the elevation of the lake's surface. My recommendation would be to give preference to the USGS referenced benchmark for the elevation of the lake's surface of 1883 m.--Pkrnger 23:41, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Algae?

The two times i have been to crater lake I saw what seemed to be a massive orange/brown algae plume on the surface near the edges. What is this?

I don't have an answer to your question, but maybe you should go to the reference desk and post your question at the bottom of the miscellaneous or science area. Bibliomaniac15 00:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The yellow/brown surface color often seen on Crater Lake consists of pollen from local lodgepole pines. Bigturtle 22:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fish

I once read somewhere that Crater Lake didnt have fish until it was stocked with trout and salmon in the late 1880s. Any truth to this? If so, it should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.22.63 (talk • contribs)

Yep, I searched for a reference for this awhile back—couldn't find one. —EncMstr 09:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Accoring to The Fish of Crater Lake "1.8 million trout and salmon stocked in the lake between 1888 and 1941" and it was fish free prior to that, if no one has added a reference to the article I will add one when I get a chance. --Burntnickel 12:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wizard Island

An anon added this info to the article:

There is no pedestrian access allowed to Wizard Island. Only scientists and geologists are allowed to go on the island.

Aside from the fact that "pedestrian access" would be impossible, it is interesting, if it is true, that the public isn't allowed to visit the island. If a source is found, this would probably be better placed in the Wizard Island article. Katr67 19:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I have been to Wizard Island, by boat, a number of years ago, so I don't think this is valid. Unless things have changed. Nationalparks 21:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I, too, have been on Wizard Island, about 1992. I also did scuba off the docks of Wizard Island. It was chilly, and murkier than expected. There was little to see, except a few fish, some strange algae which looked like a cross between bull kelp and bubble wrap, and all kinds of sunglasses, jewelry, camera accessories, coins, etc. If I recall, Phantom Ship is restricted to scientists.
The park's FAQs (under Are there any fish in the lake? Where can I go fishing?) say that fishing is permitted from Wizard Island. —EncMstr 21:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

According to Day Hikes you are allowed to hike on Wizard Island. I have visited the park and this required a boat ride to and from the island, but you are indeed allowed to do so. I'll update the article when I get a chance if no one beats me to it. --Burntnickel 12:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lead photo

I think the new photo provided by Zainubrazvi is similar to, and vastly superior to, the one currently at the top of the infobox. Its foculs is clearly on the lake rather than the surrounding region, the contrast is better, and it clearly features Wizard Island (making the photo instantly recognizable to someone familiar with the lake.) I propose swapping it into the infobox. The existing photo should still be included in the article (due to its high resolution and larger area of focus), but should be placed further down in the article, so its "redundant" nature is not so readily apparent. Thoughts? -Pete 21:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It was exactly what I was thinking. —EncMstr 21:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Yep. Katr67 22:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA concerns

Right now, this article cannot be considered as a good article due to plagiarism. The entire "sacred significance" section is copied from the cited source, Crater Lake as sacred site, which is listed as reference 10. It needs to be rewritten, because it is not acceptable in its current form.

Addtionally, there is a possible copyright issue with one of the photos. The image in the "dimensions and depth" section is tagged with a note that the license may not be valid. It might be necessary to remove this photo or to find a properly licensed substitute until the proper status of this image can be determined, and the license updated.

I will put this article on hold rather than fail it, but the issues above need to be fixed. Horologium t-c 23:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for looking over the article and providing suggestions to improve the article. I have fixed the problems by removing the copyrighted text and rewriting the section. I have also removed the image with the unknown copyright status from the article. I would appreciate it if you could look over the article again. Thanks in advance. --Hdt83 Chat 05:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
It needs a good copy-editing; the new section avoids plagiarism by fairly obviously switching out words for synonyms. Could you take the material from the two cited sources (and any other sources that might be available) and write a grammatically tidy paragraph that isn't just a restating of what others have written? Horologium t-c 14:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
How does it look now? --Hdt83 Chat 19:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
That is better. It's not as descriptive, but it's much better written than before and the copyright is no longer an issue. Don't use abbreviations; change it to "Mount" rather than "Mt." Similar to Fort Lauderdale, Florida rather then "Ft. Lauderdale" (which exists as a redirect, but don't get me started on that...). I also fixed an oopsie in one of the refs (you must use the format yyyy-mm-dd for dates to autolink, yyyy-m-dd doesn't work). Fix the "Mounts" , use the cite template for the state quarter ref and change that comma to a period after "rainfall" in the Dimensions and Depth section, and give the article a last copy-edit. There are a few flabby spots, such as "between the years of 1888 and 1941"; "years of" is superfluous, as are the last three words in the next sentence. "Self-sustaining" doesn't need "to this day". Give it a whirl and let me know when you're done.Horologium t-c 20:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Is there any interest in adding a panoramic image back to the article? I think I have several that I have take myself (I have at least one) that I could upload if there is an interest. --Burntnickel 11:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

A panoramic image is good. Can you upload it? --Hdt83 Chat 05:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to be on vacation for the next week or so, but I'll try and get it loaded up when I gat back. --Burntnickel 10:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I've uploaded a new panoramic image. I'll leave it to someone else to figure out where it best belongs.

--Burntnickel 20:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discuss external links here

Editors regularly clean out undiscussed links from this article. Please discuss here if you want a link not to be cleaned out regularly. (You can help!) Katr67 05:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added a link using the Smithsonian VNUM (Volcano Number) Template:VNUM. --Burntnickel 02:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I added a link to the National Park website on Crater lake here: [2]
That is not the current page. I think it is an archived version of an older page. The current main page is at "http://www.nps.gov/crla/" --Burntnickel 10:33, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I changed the link to the current site. Thanks for noticing that. --Hdt83 Chat 18:48, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Website addition: CraterLakeTrust.com

I'm an intern with Crater Lake National Park Trust. The trust is a charitable nonprofit organization that helps to protect, promote, and enhance Crater Lake National Park, its unique water purity, and its value for human inspiration and knowledge. The trust funds the Classroom at Crater Lake program and other educational opportunities. We recently updated our website, it contains background on the park, travel information, maps and photos, and a virtual guestbook in which visitors can share their experiences and photos. Our website is http://www.CraterLakeTrust.org if you have any questions you can email me (Laura) at info@craterlaketrust.org. I request the addition of the trusts website to links at the bottom of the article on Crater Lake. Thanks! 75.142.9.251 23:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for checking in. I'll take a look and get back to you. Katr67 01:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
This looks like a good addition to me. It's non-commercial, not-for-profit and educational. Any other opinions? Katr67 01:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree. It fits well, and would be a great focuser for Crater Lake fans. —EncMstr 02:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Looks good, although it might be better suited at the Crater Lake National Park page. Maybe it should be on both as well. --Hdt83 Chat 06:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll go ahead and add it to the CLNP page. I'm not sure it's appropriate for this page--I'll let someone else make that call. Katr67 20:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Website addition: CraterLakeInstitute.com

Another useful website link is the Crater Lake Institute, also a non-profit that supports scientific research and educational materials to enhance the experience of the park visitor. It's website can be found at http://www.craterlakeinstitute.com . You are welcome to review it to evaluate this link as an appropriate external link to your Crater Lake and Crater Lake National Park discussions. As an aside, I have recently updated the statistical information on Crater Lake's volume, residence time, surface area, and it's maximum depth (594 m), to conform to the most recent open literature publications on these topics produced by scientists from the USGS. I have also added the information that based on it's average depth of 1148 feet (350 m), and comparing this statistic to the average depth of the other deep lakes of the world, Crater Lake, OR is the third deepest lake in the world and the deepest in North America. It is also the only one of the world's deepest lakes that an observer can view all of its opposite shoreline from any position on the edge of the lake. I'm a former lake researcher at Crater Lake (1967-69)--Pkrnger 23:18, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for asking, I'll take a look. Your description sounds good though. Mainly we are trying to keep the tourism links down. Thanks for your additions to the article too. Katr67 23:32, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
It looks "stubby": It has a decent main page and a couple of the areas related to park news, especially content about search and rescue. But the rest seems to be an unfinished outline, with at least one broken internal link. —EncMstr 06:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Pkrnger, looks like an interesting site. It might or might not be acceptable on the Wikipedia article, but either way, let me suggest: you should definitely put some info about it up at AboutUs.org. AboutUs is also a wiki, and their focus is much more on cataloging interesting sites like yours. There's already a page there for your site, but it's easy for you to update it with the info you want. Check it out: http://www.aboutus.org/CraterLakeInstitute.com Hope this helps, -Pete 06:33, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I originally suggested that a link to www.craterlakeinstitute.com might be appropriate as an external link because I was aware of its extensive content on park research and history http://www.craterlakeinstitute.com/cultural-history/oral-histories/oral-history-series/index-oral-history-series.htm, as well as an article on the details of determining the depth of Crater Lake at http://www.craterlakeinstitute.com/about-us/how-deep-crater-lake.htm.--Pkrnger 17:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] incorrect stats

It also holds the honor of being the deepest lake in the world that is completely above sea level.

That's wrong. In this category the lake is beaten by the Issyk Kul, wich has a maximum depth of 668m according to the article. --195.145.17.162 12:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I removed that statement as there are no sources for that and the depth of Issyk Kul is greater than Crater Lake while still being above sea level (according to the max depth and elevation above see level of the surface). --Hdt83 Chat 06:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

However, based on a comparison of average depths, Crater Lake at 350m is deeper than Lake Issyk Kul (279m), and therefore Crater Lake, on the average, would be the deepest lake in the world whose basin is entirely above sea level.--Pkrnger (talk) 18:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Pkrngr, what you say is interesting, but would have to be cited with a reliable source. I took some time and tracked down two sources, on the site you linked above, that confirm that Crater Lake is the third-deepest lake in the world by this measurement, but it makes no mention of the "above sea level" bit. I don't doubt that's true -- in fact, I looked at Lakes Baikal and Tanganyika, and see that both of their depths reach below sea level (elevation minus greatest depth.) However, unless that's been reported somewhere, its notability is dubious. Consider that I could claim that I am the tallest man in the world, as long as you rule out x, y, z, … but nobody really cares, beyond some threshold of conditions attached. The only way we can assess where that theshold is, as Wikipedia editors, is to include only the stuff that has been reported in other publications. Anyway, I think if you want to include the "third-deepest" version, I don't think there would be any problem, as long as you provide a link or citation to a source. -Pete (talk) 18:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The current text says:

“ On the basis of comparing average depths among the worlds deepest lakes, however, Crater Lake becomes the deepest lake in the Western Hemisphere and the third deepest in the world. It is the deepest, on average, among all lakes whose basins are entirely above sea level. ”

I propose the following to replace it:

“ By average depth, Crater Lake is the deepest lake in the Western Hemisphere, and the third-deepest in the world. The deeper lakes, Lake Issyk Kul and Tanganyika Lake, extend below sea level at their deepest points, unlike Crater Lake, which is entirely above sea level. [3] [4] ”

This is backed up by the citations noted, one of which was published in the Klamath Falls Herald and News. I believe it expresses the facts in a more neutral tone, than the current text. Any objections? -Pete (talk) 21:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Pete, I am Owen Hoffman, a Director of the Crater Lake Institute and former NPS park ranger-naturalist and lake researcher at Crater Lake National Park. My research on the comparison of rankings of the deepest lakes in the world was the source of that Klamath Falls Herald and News article that you cite above. My primary reference for information on lake statistics is the ILEC data base http://www.ilec.or.jp/database/asi/asi-55.html as linked to http://www.worldlakes.org. To find the lakes whose basins extend below sea level, simply subtract the maximum reported depth from the reported elevation of the lake's surface as given in the ILEC data base.
Based on the ILEC data base, all the lakes reported to be deeper than Crater Lake have basins that extend below sea level, except for Lake Issyk Kul, which has a reported maximum depth of 700 meters and an average depth of 279 meters. It's average depth is less than the 350 m average for Crater Lake.
Based on a comparison of average depths, only Lakes Baikal and Tanganyika have average depths deeper than Crater Lake, and their basins extend below sea level. Therefore I would advise that the present text should stand as is. Among those world lakes whose basins are entirely above sea level, Crater Lake has the deepest average depth.
I would appreciate help in adding the above links as further reference material--198.144.166.5 (talk) 22:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)--Pkrnger (talk) 22:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Owen, thanks for introducing yourself -- and moreover, thanks for bringing your expertise to Wikipedia! First off, on citations. For the H&N article, the way I'd do it is to put the following after the text it cites:
<ref>Juillerat, Lee. "[http://www.craterlakeinstitute.com/crater-lake-news/owen-crater-lake-depth.htm Into the Deep: Crater Lake's ranking as one of the world's deepest lakes varies by how list is determined]", Klamath Falls Herald and News, November 29, 2007. Retrieved on December 20, 2007.</ref>
That will insert a footnote, properly formatted, at the bottom of the article (in the "References" section. (The {{reflist}} code in that section makes that possible. It's a little bit of wiki magic.)
We can work on the other citations too, but that should give you a basic idea how it works.
On the content, I'm willing to concede the "deepest lake" phrase if that's important to you. However, it's important for an encyclopedia to be transparent in its reasoning. If a reader is interested in what lake is deepest, it's likely they will be interested in what other lakes are considered, and why they don't qualify. For instance, if somebody says to a friend "Crater Lake is the deepest (insert specifics here), I read it on Wikipedia," and their friend challenges that, the WP reader should be able to say: "No, those other two lakes are deeper than Crater Lake, but their deepest parts extend below sea level." I think finding some way of including those specifics -- without getting too wordy -- is important.
Anyway, I hope the description of the citation stuff makes sense. Let me know if you have questions on that. Also, do you know how to use the "diff" function to see what changes have been made to an article? Try clicking on the "history" tab near the top of any WP page, and click any two of the buttons you'll see along the left hand side. Then click "compare versions." Cool, huh? This feature is a big help in seeing article history, and in learning how to do weird things like citations. -Pete (talk) 20:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)