Talk:County (United States)

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 County (United States) was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: January 6, 2008

Contents

[edit] New Jersey

New Jersey is the only state in the union whose county officials are called freeholders. Is that of interest to this artice? Also, New Jersey counties are not as powerless as New England counties, however, many services that would be under county supervision in most states are under municipal juristiction in New Jersey. Moreover, property taxes are paid directly to the individual municipality and not to the county as in most other states. There are no unincorporated areas in NJ, every square inch of land is part of a municipality. A "township" in New Jersey is an incorporated municipality on equal grounds with any other municipality. This is not the case as in most other states a township is an unincorporated subdivision of a county.

[edit] The 5 Boroughs of New York City

It states "each borough now corresponds almost exactly to one county." ALMOST??? The five boroughs are each coterminus with their respective counties. There is no almost about it.

[edit] This is Ridiculous

I was just reading this article and found that it is in need of some very serious cleanup. Most of the relevant information is doubled and some is tripled. How many times do we need to point out that Virginia has independent cities and New York City is made up of five counties? I like that it mentions the uniqueness of these situations, but it's overdone. Phil Bastian 19:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Wondering how to edit this U.S. Counties entry?
The WikiProject U.S. Counties standards might help.

[edit] County seals

Please see Talk:List of Maryland counties -- I'd like someone to see if they can determine whether those seals are public domain (being on a governmental site, there's a good chance they are), and if so, we could incorporate them in our articles. -- BRG 10/10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.98.90 (talk) 15:16, 10 October 2002 (UTC)

[edit] What does it mean "in addition there is DC"

> In addition there is the District of Columbia

What does this mean ? That is, the fifty states plus DC is ... what ? It is most of the United States of America, but leaves out the island territories, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.8.184.25 (talk) 01:15, 15 December 2003 (UTC)

These are the places where the residents get to vote for President. I'm not sure of our name for that; the article should use that name, whatever it is. --Jerzy(t) 19:48, 2004 May 13 (UTC)

[edit] Count of counties

I changed the definition of county so it includes "city and county" entities and the five boroughs of NYC, which did not fit. (I started to edit to include Bronx, New York, Richmond, Kings, and Queens counties among "county equivs", but assumed instead that the Census Bureau calls them counties. )

I did however move DC to "county equivs", since the math and later language reflect that.

But someone, preferably whoever came up with the two 3000+ figures, should check to see whether or not the NYC boroughs and DC indeed were counted as counties, and if not, edit count of counties or total as indicated.

Finally, the article was inconsistent as to whether a "true" county is a fourth case of "county equiv". I took a guess that it is, and edited accordingly, but that should also be checked and documented on this talk.
--Jerzy(t) 19:48, 2004 May 13 (UTC)


3141 census defined county/county-equivalents
-1 DC
=3140
-42 census-defined independent cities (FIPS 55 class code C7)
=3098
-11 Alaska census areas (FIPS 55 class code H5)
=3087 counties, including 64 LA parishes and 16 AK boroughs
where does 3077 counties in first paragraph come from?
should it not be 3087 counties?
20060725.1541.PST
jaydlewis@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.225.233.95 (talk) 22:42, 25 July 2006

[edit] Dragnet

And... "Los Angeles, California is an example well known to at least one generation, from the Dragnet television series." Now, I've never seen the show but I am an Angeleno and I promise you that L.A. city and county gov'ts are different and I believe they have been that way since the beginning. Anybody know what this about? jengod 20:26, May 13, 2004 (UTC)

The Los Angeles Police Department, a.k.a LAPD, is a county-wide department, serving not only the city of Los Angeles, but most of the county as well. There headquarters in in the city, which is the county seat.
Whoever posted this information about the Los Angeles Police Department has absolutely no clue what he is talking about. LAPD is the police department for the City of Los Angeles only. The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department is a county department that patrols all of the unincorporated areas of the county and about half of the cities, which contract with the sheriff's department in lieu of having their own police departments. Slyjackalope 22:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Powers of counties

Is someone an expert in how the powers of counties vary from state to state? As far as I can tell, they are of primarily historic and census interest in most of the northeast. In the southeast, they are creatures of the state, and have only such powers as the state delegates to them. (This is how the Alabama state constitution got to be so long – every time that a county wanted to have its own drainage district or issue bonds the state constitution would up being amended to accomodate it since otherwise the county would have no authority to do so, which seems a particulary poor way to govern.) Is the rest of the country like the southeast, where counties have little "soverignty" and mostly are just units of the state? Or is there more of the element of "home rule" to counties elsewhere in the country? Rlquall 14:24, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'm no expert, but I can give a perspective on what I am familiar with: in Michigan (and from what I have seen of Wisconsin and Ohio), counties began in the 19th century as general law entities with powers defined and fairly tightly circumscribed by the state legislature, much as you describe for the southeast (the Michigan constitution at one time had lengthy sections detailing disctinctions between numerous varieties of municipalities--and it seems the legislature at that time spent much of its time meddling in municipal affairs). But beginning around the turn of the century (I think this corresponded with the rise of the progressive movement and reforms intended to address corruption in municipal government), home rule powers began to devolve to local entities. In Michigan, most counties are still general law entities (only Wayne County has adopted a charter relieving it of many of the technical requirements of the general law provisions for administration and organization). However, the general law governing counties and other municipalities has become somewhat less restrictive, such that most municipalities (including counties and townships) have a significant degree of home rule authority. The state law governing general law municipalities prescribes options for organizing and administering the entities, but gives the individual entities considerable leeway for taking care of the needs specific to that entity without intervention from the legislature. Interestingly, one of the challenges facing Michigan currently is the large number of local governmental authorities that individuals and businesses have to deal with--and whether the various governmental process should (or can) be streamlined. older≠wiser 15:59, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)
That's useful info. In Tennessee, whereas the counties have basically only the powers the state has devolved to them, municipalities have broad powers and can essentially do everything except what the state says they cannot (the first presumably being roughly the same relationship Canadian provinces have the Canadian federal government and the second being roughly the same as U.S. states are supposed to have with the U.S. federal government). The real limit on municipal powers in Tennessee is that they can't fine anyone over $50, a constitutional limit dating to the adoption of the state constitution in 1870, when of course it was a still-considerable sum. Even coupled with court costs, this doesn't do much to deter much of anything in the modern era (unless it is assessed on a per day case, which it can be for things like building permit and zoning violations). The Tennessee Municipal League spent a lot of time and effort getting the repeal of that limit on the ballot in 2002, but it got lost in the shuffle. All of the publicity and campaign expenditures went into the other propostition on the ballot the same day, the state lottery, and the municipal fines amendment became only the second one in Tennessee history to make the ballot but then be voted down. (History shows that when people don't have things explained to them, they tend to vote "no". The other defeated amendment was a rather arcane change to how the state's judicial department was set up, which was defeated in 1978, largely because people seemed not to trust anything so wordy.) This leads to a weird situation. Many Tennesse muncipalities have enacted city ordinances against arson, rape, murder, etc., which of course are also against state law, but with the difference being that if one were charged under the city ordinance, the maximum punishment would be a $50 fine, and "jeporady" would have attached, so if one were convicted of violating those ordinances, presumably the only punishment would be a fine of $50 and court costs. Generally prosecutors don't make the mistake of charging people under city warrants for state offenses, but the fact that it could happen has led to something of a movement to repeal all city ordinances against felony offenses, so that someone doesn't get fined $50 for murder by mistake. Rlquall 14:06, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Typically, counties are organs of the states and can be abolished, created, merged, and divided by the state government. Counties may have some protection in their state's constitution (which varies) but the federal constitution does not mention counties and leaves states to handle it(it's United States). Usually the smaller the state, the more power an individual county will have and will likely be granted protection or at least be mentioned in the state's constitution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.49.149.91 (talk) 13:58, 26 June 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Let's lose the POV

"Terrible public library" doesn't belong as a statement of fact in an encyclopedic article. "Some observers have decried the quality of the public libraries of Santa Clara County" is potentially worthwhile, if a source such as a newspaper or magazine article can be quoted and or linked, especially. But just saying in effect "The library in Santa Monica sucks," without attribution, doesn't make it. Rlquall 13:50, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Still waiting for a knowledgable person (presumably a current or former Californian) to make corrections in the comment to the effect that all public libraries in Los Angeles County are terrible. This is too POV to be encyclopedic and needs to be edited, now or very soon. Rlquall 23:05, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Done. I've lived both places, and it's nonsense. I frequent the L.A. County library in Culver City, for example, and I've been in MANY libraries (city-run, county-run, otherwise) in my day, and it's quite nice! jengod 01:10, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, that's a vast improvement to the article. Rlquall 06:22, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] County creation in the United States

Hi, Does somebody knows when did the last county has been created ? Is there some projects to create counties, especially in the West ? As a foreigner, I don't know, and can't find any answer to it in this article. It would be a great thing if somebody could do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.161.27.52 (talk) 02:04, 17 January 2005 (UTC)

The last new county here in Tennessee was created ca. 1880. Since then, one has filed for bankruptcy and been absorbed by a neighboring county (James County, Tennessee, ca. 1919). There have been several counties in Wyoming formed in the early 20th century, and there have been several new-county movements since then, including at least two in Tennessee (where the state constitution as now written makes them almost impossible to start), but I don't know of any newer counties than the Hawai'i counties added in 1959 when the state was admitted. Rlquall 02:46, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
My bet is that counties, ind cities, etc. are created by the States. Here in North Carolina, the last counties created was Hoke Co. and Avery Co. in 1911. About 12 years ago, there was a proposal the beach communities in S New Hanover County form their own county. This proposal went nowhere in the end. -- Hoshie | 03:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
The last time I checked, there is a lot of talk in Santa Barbara County, California about splitting it in half, but it hasn't happened yet. And yes, to confirm Hoshie's point, counties exist at the pleasure of the states (the primary sovereign unit in American government with plenary authority), so how a county is created is up to the state in which it sits. --Coolcaesar 05:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
The most recently created county may have been Bullfrog County, Nevada, but it's possible that there have been some more recent ones. --Cjmnyc 04:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Broomfield County, Colorado is the most recent one I know of. 121a0012 04:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article move?

Was there any discussion of renaming the article from County (United States) to Counties of the United States? I think the former is a better title for the article. older ≠ wiser 01:37, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

  • Agreed. Don't know if there was discussion at the time, but it certain runs counter to how things seem to be moving generally. Note that United States Democratic Party is now Democratic Party (United States), for example, as are the other parties of a size for anyone much to have heard of. Also, I see U.S. Southern states, a hugely contrived and unrealistic article title IMO, getting remade into the far more natural Southern United States as a step in the right direction. To me, at least, County (United States) seems right and Counties of the United States all wrong, just because it seems unlikely that anyone with any concept of the Wikipedia naming conventions would ever start there, and because it sounds contrived. It's certainly probably not keeping anyone from finding the article, with the redirects and the search function currently working so well, but we should show some consistency IMO. Rlquall 02:36, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Agreed. This article should be County (United States). "Counties of the United States" sounds like a list and doesn't conform to the general convention in either case. --Tysto 21:01, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
    • I concur. --Coolcaesar 05:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] by are, population?

I'd do this if I could, list of counties by area and population. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duffman7p (talk • contribs) 03:17, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

See County statistics of the United States —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jengod (talk • contribs) 19:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too much info in County Article (regarding the merge suggestion)

I would suggest that there's too much info. in the County article in the US section, and that more of it could do with being moved to the specific US article in order to cut down the length - which is quite substantial. I think this follows the simple principle that anyone who wants to know more will follow the link that's already present. Andrewferrier 18:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I think you are referring to the merge suggestion that currently appears in both articles, so I have revised this discussion section's name. I agree that the basic County article's section about US counties should be replaced with a link that points to this article. JonathanFreed 20:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] County government?

The article contains a whole lot of specifics about the boundaries, population, scope, etc., of counties as geographic entities, and almost nothing about what county governments actually do. Yes, it varies by state, but there are some broadly common elements.

Obviously law enforcement and the justice system are key county functions. For example, I think just about every county in ths U.S. has a sheriff and a jail. Prosecutors in most states are county elected officials, and the court system is almost invariably county based.

In some states, especially in the South, there is a broadly powerful official known as the County Judge who has executive, judicial and legislative authority. In Kentucky I think they have changed the name to "County Judge-Executive".

Further, except in New England where towns are supreme, land and vital records are maintained at the county level, usually by an elected official such as a county clerk or a recorder of deeds, or both.

In many states, human services such as welfare are provided by the state via county government agencies.

Most states do not give county government the kinds of broad municipal powers that cities have.

Just a few thoughts. Kestenbaum 02:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Besides the concerns Kestenbaum raises above, this article doesn't seemt to distinguish between county governments (such as reported here by the census bureau), vs. counties (or equivalents) as geographic entities. The link above cites 3,034 functioning county governments in 2002 (including LA parishes and AK boroughs). But I think the count of counties as geographic entities may be higher (i.e., connecticut and RI counties count as geographic entities, but not as governments). I noticed this in a recent edit in which the counts given of counties seemed to be updated inconsistently (and without any source) but that the original numbers seemed off as well. older ≠ wiser 15:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
The local government law handbook I saw in the county law library (and cited in this article) had a section on what county governments do in general nationwide---I think. Next time I am at the county law library I will take a look at that book again and take some notes if there is anything good. --Coolcaesar 16:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Honolulu a city or not?

One of the duplicated sections says Honolulu is not an incorporated city and thus its title "City & County of Honolulu" is a misnomer. The other says that Honolulu is an incorporated city. Neither of them cites. 70.19.50.209 17:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject help

Some helpful information on U.S. county lists can be found at WP:COUNTYLISTS. Tompw (talk) (review) 16:36, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Water areas?

Why exclude water areas from the area of a County? Does that mean also excluding internal rivers, lakes and streams? Thesmothete 15:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Water areas are generally not excluded from the areas of counties. In most articles that I can find, both land area and "total area" (water plus land) are given in the statistics. When someone mentions "area", of course, he should specify which one it is (land or total). The most important instance where land area should always be used would be in the calculation of population density, since people don't generally live on water. Backspace 07:07, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
It is my contention that most people would find it hard to believe that Keweenaw County, Michigan is bigger than Rio Arriba County, New Mexico. Well, it is, if you count water. If you count only land, Rio Arriba County is more than ten times as large as Keweenaw County. The land area of Keweenaw County is 540.975 sq mi, that of Rio Arriba County is 5,857.631 sq mi; however, if we consider water, then the total area is 5,965.956 sq mi for Keweenaw County, and 5,896.103 sq mi for Rio Arriba County. Backspace 07:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GAN

  • Image:Map of USA with county outlines.png has no author information.
  • Not enough references, there are paragraphs, sections, and facts that have no citations...Therefore broadness cannot be passed, as there are no references to go along with article.
  • See semi-automated peer review for MOS problems...peer review

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

This article is in decent shape, but it needs more work before it becomes a Good Article.

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    B. MoS compliance:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    C. No original research:
    as above
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:
    Good luck with improving this article!

Added article to the Unreferenced GA Nominations list. SriMesh | talk 03:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for carrying out the review. Clearly the main task is to add references where needed. Tompw (talk) (review) 21:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)