Talk:Council of Jamnia

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can we mark this to be cleaned up? it's not organized and that huge paragraph loses interest. -- paul

[edit] "Speculation.."

I am shocked, the very first topic of discussion is one that places an air of doubt even before the reader even begins to understand what it is all about.

It is fine to disagree, however, placing commentary debasing a well accepted concept even before the reader knows what is discussed is wrong and inapproprate. If Wikipedia wants quote from author's which disagree the Council even occured, it should at least provide equal support for the concept. Possibly quoting H. Graitz', book History of the Jews, were he formulates this hypothesis(an educated guess-see below) from direct Hebrew texts.


It is very simlar to a response by Hanina(Jamnia Jumble) in the Septuagint discussion board( Talk:Septuagint ), and is personaly patronizing, as it quotes Jack P. Lewis which I provided against speculation in my response below:


Jamina Jumble of the Jumble:

Please refer to "Council of Jamnia"(already removed, and placed in the main article under "Speculation...") for background regarding this "Jamnian" controversy. You see, it appears Hanina's remark " as modern scholars doubt any Council of Jamnia ever convened!" was a gross mis-interpretation. Actually, if there is any consensus it is that Jamnia, by most modern scholarly works whether over a 1 year period or a 30 year period, is that it did occur. The little speculation that has arisen, comes via the works of a few. One of these skeptics Jack P. Lewis, in his book The Anchor Bible Dictionary Vol. III, pp. 634-7, specifically, makes the following weak statements in attempting to discredit any "Council of Jamnia"...

"The concept of the Council of Jamnia is an hypothesis to explain the canonization of the Writings (the third division of the Hebrew Bible) resulting in the closing of the Hebrew canon. ... These ongoing debates suggest the paucity of evidence on which the hypothesis of the Council of Jamnia rests and raise the question whether it has not served its usefulness and should be relegated to the limbo of unestablished hypotheses. It should not be allowed to be considered a consensus established by mere repetition of assertion. "

Upon reading, Mr. Lewis, makes several scholarly errors and mis-definitions.

Right from the start, Mr. Lewis, points out a "paucity of evidence". Well, if there was direct evidence then he should not be calling this a "hypothesis". For the definition of hypothesis is an educated proposition accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts. Understanding this we realize that , Mr. Lewis' statement "unestablished hypothesis" is a true oxymoron. If it was firmly established with evidence (in essence a smoking gun) then it would not be called a hypothesis.

However, lets look at the established facts which does make the Council of Jamnia and this Phariseal Jew Canonization highly probable and legitimate hypothesis for the time of the canonization of what is referred as the "Hebrew" Scriptures.

1. There is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set. However, we do know it must have been set some time between 60-200 BC(during the formation of the Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls), and the 10th century - the date of the Masoretic Text. With this in mind we need to understand certain pivotal periods in Hebrew/Phariseal Jewish history and the time most likely for this to occur would require the congregation of Phariseal Jews in the Holy Land. Additionally we must understand that even thought there may have been various Jewish divisions of differing powers there was no one single Jewish sect which had superior powers above all other and each utilized various books as scripture. The Saducees held only the Pentatuch(1st five books) as their lone scripture, Essenes to a larger volume of books than the Pharisees, diaspora/Hellenist Jews, Ethiopian Jews and the grand majority of Jews including Christ himself and his Early Church used the Septuagint canon, naturally including Christian Jews.

2. The grand majority of Jews, including those in the Holy Land, at least 200 years before Christ and centuries after did not speak Hebrew they spoke Aramaic (with Greek as the official language), as Christ. Therefore, the predominant use of the Septuagent Old Testament.

3. The destruction of the Temple at 70 AD left Phariseal Jews of Palestine with little to identify themselves and the last they needed is to abide by an exact canon and language used by the newly converted Christian Jews. Thus, a need to discard themselves of any canon connected with the Septuagint canon. (again I remind you it was the Septuagint canon of Old Testament scriptures utilized by Christ and the apostles, as a matter of fact, it is quoted over 300 times in the New Testament included many of Jesus' very own words.) Additionally, the Pharisees realized that the conversion of many Jews to Christianity was directly related with the Septuagent version of the Old Testament with the more explicit language regarding the coming Messiah- for an example see the Book of Wisdom 2:13 and compare it to Matthew 27:43 and Psalms 22:8. Even more reason to hastily establish and close a "Hebrew" (Phariseal) canon to deal with this Christian conversion problem among their very Jewish brethren now that Jews had lost the very central tenement of Judaism, the Temple at Jerusalem.

4. With all this in mind one must question...whom has place the Pharisees, those that rejected Christ and their offspring, Rabbinic Judaism in a position of primacy regarding Hebrew Canon and much less Christian Old Testament Canon? Additionally why could it not be inferred that Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai one of the original founders of Rabbinic Judaism ,whom left to Jamnia after the temple was destroyed and was a central figure in the codification the Mishna oral law during the late 1st century did not also at the very least initiate the formulation of the Hebrew (truly a "Phariseal" Hebrew) Canon during that same time. Consequently, the "hypothesis" of the Council of Jamnia and the establishment of the "Hebrew" canon.

Lastly, the bottom line is that the Pharisees had no more say with regard to the final codification of Old Testament Scripture than any other Jewish sect of Jesus' time and neither one of these groups had any superior authority among themselves even less-so over the Early Christian Church which WAS give the authority- by Christ- to bind or loosen as is well documented in scripture in Matthew 16:18-19: "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Wikipedia should correct this ASAP, or simulaneously quote H. Graitz book, History of the Jews, where he formulates his hypothesis directly from the Hebrew texts.--Micael 16:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)