Talk:Cosmogony
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[edit] Theocritus' Cosmogony
I think this article should include something about cosmogonies as a literature and oral history - for example Theocritus' Cosmogony. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.193.5 (talk • contribs)
I agree -- Cosmogony was originally a religious/mythic concept, not scientific. Even Hesiod's Theogony is (in part) a cosmogony, to ignore many other ancient cosmological traditions important to the history of Western Civilization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.58.68.206 (talk) 06:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] "Pre-scientific" Genesis
(Note added 2-Jan-2003) This comment refers to an edit. In the first paragraph that explains what cosmogony is there was a reference to the Biblical book of Genesis as containing a "pre-scientific cosmogony". However, it is a cosmogony, and one that at least tens of thousands of scientists in recent years have come to affirm, using whatever set of objective criteria one wishes to use for categorizing scientists. --The only editing done was to remove the adjective "pre-scientific".
- Fair enough. I put the adjective in not intending to prejudge the issue of the truth or falsity of the Genesis account, but I'm not concerned if it's removed. For the record: by 'pre-scientific' I meant 'before the advent of science', not 'incorrect according to science'. Toby 11:07, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
[edit] GR/GUT
General relativity is not a GUT JeffBobFrank 20:46, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I changed "metted out" to "meted out", but it doesn't make sense to me (I checked Collins and the SOED). Isidore 23:36, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
This page is stupid. The author should be shot - A GUT is a theory that unifies those found in the Standard Model. None exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vugdeox (talk • contribs)
Although I don't agree with the way it was put, the previous comment has some validity, although a GUT is not as rigorously applied by physicists as that commentator put. Regardless, I have provided a major redraft of the page, because it was disjointed, and contained a lot of info that was not strictly relating to the subject matter, was unsubstantiated, or seemed to be something of a personal commentary. I am sure the person who put it there had good reasons, but the application was not well put. My edit could be improved, but time will out. I haven't added that cosmogony need not be logical. If others think this should be added, they might do so, remembering that this kind of page tends to attract the fringe, so word it reverently, perhaps. Centroyd 24th September 2004
I'm pretty sure the discussions in this page previously appeared in Social Text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.10.74 (talk • contribs)
[edit] Could the Big Bang be the other side of a Black Hole when it formed?
Has anyone ever thought of this very much? I'm no scientist but have always been interested in astronomy. I always try to watch shows about space when I can and can usually understand what the astronomers, physicists, cosmologists are talking about when they are using layman terms and analogies but would struggle if I had to see all the technical stuff.
Anyway, assuming the Big Bang is real, which I lean toward, how can matter just grow out of nothing? I mean that material had to come from somewhere. To me it seems that a black hole formed in another universe and sucked the matter from that universe into this one. The amount of matter the black hole sucked in could determine the mass of the universe. I think we could determine this by finding the state of matter at the time of the big bang and when it enters a Black Hole. How similar/different are they? A black hole formed in this universe could have a new universe inside of it also. Does this seem plausible? I don't know how I can talk to Stephen Hawking or Kip Thorne so I can't ask them about it so I ask fellow wikipedians who might have an answer. MrMurph101 03:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- But if the black hole reached a certain weight, it would become a white dwarf, so there's no way an entire universe would be sucked into a black hole. --Scotteh 08:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, someone else than you had thought of this. :-) I never considered what was being said above, and if true, then it would bust a theory like this according to our current understanding of black holes. But it sure is an elegant theory; that our universe is what an "inside" of a black hole really is like. And that the big bang was simply just a point of formation of the hole. That could also imply that our universe would be one among many others in a "superuniverse". Or maybe one could theorize that it would be an infinite number of universes like this, with their own black holes forming other universes. ;-) As for "matter coming out of nothing", it has been shown that energy and matter are just two sides of the same coin. Energy can convert into matter, so it would seem that there's your explanation of this. The bigger question would really be -- where did the Big Bang gain its energy from? -- Northgrove 00:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
- It would be an elegant theory. I don't know how it holds up but some theories that are originally scoffed at may become the dominant one :). Just like the moon origin theory. MrMurph101 00:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree exactly with GeeJo. It just shifts the cosmogonical question (as opposed to the cosmology) one step further away. Perhaps see my incomplete blog: http://cosmogonycentral.blogspot.com/2007/06/on-first-cause.html but of course it represents a possibly biased view (based on several years formal study however). --Centroyd (talk) 13:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Unless This Suggestion Is Completely Outside the Box Here ...
I would like to see some mention in the article of the idea that the universe is a natural self-reproducing system.
(1) This possibility is suggested by the stream of functional links that begins with the big bang:
Big bang → precursors of matter → atomic particles → atoms of the lighter elements → clouds of gasses → stars and galaxies → heavy elements → intra-galactic matter-rich clouds → later-generation stars and planets → life-bearing planets → evolutionary systems → intelligent life forms → ?
Each element in the stream functions in such a way as to lead to the appearance of the next element, and the idea that our appearance in the scheme of things provides a natural point at which the stream can be turned into a cycle (by replacing the question mark above with “new big bang”) is at least an interesting possibility. (I also actively dislike the idea that we are the only incompletely functional element in the stream – i.e., the only element with no output phase. But that’s just an aesthetic thing.)
(2) The idea of a completely natural self-reproducing universe is especially interesting because it is religiously neutral (except to religious fundamentalists): (a) The first self-reproducing universe in the stream could have appeared spontaneously by some purely natural process, or (b) it could have been created by a supernatural being. And for such a being (with an infinite amount of time on its hands and wanting a universe around to begin with), the odds are infinite that a single universe of the sort that we live in will not satisfy its eternal wants.
Thus, creating a system that just keeps going and going and going by itself instead a stream of one-shot stands would just be working smart.
So, what do you think? Does the idea belong in the article?
If so, I have always liked the name “Sapiens Hypothesis” for the idea.
If not, I will be happy to withdraw the suggestion.
Liberalpro 19:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
- Unless you have a reliable source that verifiably explains, names, and describes your idea it does not belong in Wikipedia as per Wikipedia's no original research policy. --ScienceApologist 15:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] external links
I see 1 external link - "Why the Universe Exists – the Short Answer". I think it is a little bit irrelevant, because what actually interests is not so much the question why, but how. (see the beginning of the article) Inyuki 06:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I added an external link "Where did the Universe come from?" which leads to the "Curious about astronomy" website. While it contains mostly speculation, in my opinion, it's still more relevant than the first external link.
I agree with Inyuki. How come Wikipedia got all above itself all of a sudden. There used to be quite a few external sites. It seems that there is some 'evil genius' (Descartes - look it up) who is trying to restrict our access to a wider view. And you can't say that cosmogony is in any way set in cement. Certainly the site that is included (the others having been wiped by some deity)barely touches on cosmogony, and makes some impressive jumps. E.g. "As to where everything came from, there is no conclusive opinion. One idea was that the Universe was created from vacuum. This is because according to quantum theory, the apparently quiescent vacuum is not really empty at all." But this assumes a vacuum, it assumes the laws of quantum physics. The author, I think, was limiting him/herself to astronomical, not cosmogonical answer. So this is really not a site that should be there to the exclusion of anything else.
--Centroyd (talk) 01:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Silly comment
"A scientific examination of cosmogony using existing physical models would face many challenges. For example, equations used to develop models of the origin do not in themselves explain how the equations came to be in the first place."
Equations are written by humans. All a cosmogony has to do is allow intelligent sepcies to arise.1Z 02:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
What I meant was:
"A scientific examination of cosmogony using existing physical models would face many challenges. For example, equations used to develop models of the origin do not in themselves explain how the conditions of the universe that the equations model came to be in the first place."
Not silly, I just expected too much of the cognitive skills of my audience. Centroyd 02:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] hello! =) a silly little comment.
"There is some ambiguity between the two terms, for example, the cosmological argument from theology regarding the existence of God is technically an appeal to cosmogonical rather than cosmological ideas."
a god? that sounds kind of "monotheistic-centric"... isn't there a more general version that allows for gods? i feel left out... being a polytheist and all, y'know!
cheers!
[edit] External link to "Why the Universe Exists"
Although I believe the editor who removed the link interpreted the Wikipedia rules correctly and acted in good faith, I have restored the link Why the Universe Exists because I believe a certain proportion of readers who arrive at the Cosmogony page and happen to follow the link will find it thought provoking and interesting. It is clear what the externally linked article is and is not, and I think those who are not interested in such unauthoritative speculation will simply click straight back to Wikipedia. I don't think the externally linked article is deliberately misleading or ill-intended and think rather that it provides useful food for thought that would be out of place in the encyclopedia proper. Please read the externally linked article and judge for yourself and act as you see fit. I have said my piece and hope I am a reasonable person, so I will not restore the link again if it is removed again.--Vibritannia (talk) 12:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- We're an encyclopedia. People who are looking for "Rampant speculation" can and should use Google. Thousands of of people write speculation on all sorts of subjects it is entirely inappropriate for us to link to some of it without an encyclopedic reason. -- SiobhanHansa 13:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that is a very reasonable point. I can invent one encyclopedic reason: the article begins "Cosmogony is any theory concerning the coming into existence or origin of the universe, or an origin belief about how reality came to be", and the external link is an example of one. Giving concrete examples of what you are talking about is a good thing to do. The external link is speculative, but that is the nature of cosmogonies - nobody knows for sure yet. The external link is not authoritative, but in such a speculative arena, is it even valid to talk of authoritative cosmogonies. Maybe this is just post-rationalization on my part. --Vibritannia (talk) 10:59, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- If a theory is well known and respected enough to be covered in the article, a link to it could be a great addition. But links to other theories are simply a violation of our NPOV policy. -- SiobhanHansa 16:09, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
