Talk:Convoy PQ-17

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Contents

[edit] Origin of supply

PQ-17 was a convoy supplying the USSR... from where? The US, presumably.

No, Iceland. PQ indicated the Iceland - North Russia route from September 1941 to December 1942, then JW. See [1]. Folks at 137 22:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
A while back there was a conversation about this on Talk:Arctic convoys of World War II. Iceland was used as a gathering point for most convoys. Others started from various North American and British locations. Folks at 137 23:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

See the article on David Irving--I believe the majority of his work has been discredited. Someone ought to make clear what is known and what is controversial, if possible. --Tpcraven 03:15, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Have look at the Wiki page on Irving. Folks at 137 22:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
David Irving. Great, just great. Don't know what to trust in that work. (SEWilco 21:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC))
Irving's book does use footnotes which are linked to 15 pages of notes. It at least may provide direction to a primary source, so reported facts can be confirmed. (SEWilco 05:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC))
PQ-17 had supplies from the U.S. The preceding QP convoy contained a gold payment from Russia for the material. Ah, here it is: HMS Edinburgh's Final Voyage (SEWilco 21:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC))
And Irving returns to in this issue also although indirectly. His father survived the Edinburgh sinking but left the family. (SEWilco 05:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Finnish radio intelligence

AFAIK Germany got the information on PQ-17 from the Finnish radio intelligence.

I agree. This information was published in Finland in the early 1980s. The only information in Wikipedia on Finnish radio intelligence is on Operation Stella Polaris, the evacuation of the organization to Sweden and the USA. -- Petri Krohn 15:25, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SS John Witherspoon

This vessel is said to have turned back early in the convoy's voyage due to ice damage. Later in the narrative it is sunk by a U-Boat as part of the convoy. These two facts are not incompatible; but there needs to be an explanation, if only a sentence to the effect that the Witherspoon rejoined the convoy, explaining whether the Witherspoon sped up to catch the convoy, or the convoy slowed down for the Witherspoon, assuming that the Witherspoon caught up with the convoy at all. -Ashley Pomeroy 23:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

According to Irving's book, the Witherspoon was a part of the convoy until sunk. Her convoy position was in the southern rear section, just ahead of the southernmost rescue ship. List of Liberty ships by hull number, 1 shows her as hull 31, sunk during this operation. Irving says the Liberty ship Richard Bland holed on Iceland rocks and returned to port. Early on June 29, four ships got serious damage from ice; the SS Exford returned to port, while the Gray Ranger was slowed to 8 knots. According to one online tale[2] the Exford hit ice on June 29, although the teller thought that was after the scatter order. I'll replace the Witherspoon mention in the article with Exford. (SEWilco 06:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Loss of "SS Washington"

The article states that "Among the losses that day were U.S. merchant ships SS Pan Kraft, SS Washington ['...commissioned as the troopship USS Mount Vernon on 16 June, 1941.' - SS Washington Wikipedia page], SS Carlton, SS Honomu, and SS Peter Kerr." The SS Washington (the USS Mount Vernon) fought throughout the war and was never sunk.

The USS Washington "...was a North-Carolina class battleship..." which "served in both the Atlantic and Pacific..." and was "...decommissioned in 1947", according to the USS Washington Wikipedia page. She, too, fought throughout the war and was never sunk.

So: What "SS Washington" was sunk on July 5, 1942? Neither of the above two ships, apparently.

I would appreciate it if a naval historian could correct this contradiction.Writtenright 01:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Writtenright

[edit] Irving as a source

In the Wikipedia-Article on David Irving we write The judge also ruled that Irving had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence. - so why should we refer to a source which is widely acknowledged as manipulating historical evidence? A private website is just as good as this kind of source - if required I´m ready to present you one within minutes with contradicting thesis. Unless no one provides reasonable arguments, I will delete the reference on Irving after a while. If anyone knows which "facts" in the article are based solely on Irving, please post it here, just to doublecheck these "facts" and delete it from the article in case we can´t verify. Mausch 16:13, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Will do that now. Mausch 17:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The quote you refer to, The judge also ruled that Irving had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence., does not reference the book The Destruction of Convoy PQ17. It is in relation to another case some 30 years later. The trial associated with the book The Destruction of Convoy PQ17 was a libel action based on Irvings analysis that Capt. Jack Broome was to blame for the withdrawal of PQ.17s destroyer screen. These were the only facts that were disputed. Irving lost the action and the book was withdrawn from circulation. However, it was republished in 1981 with the offending passages removed. As a work of historical research the 1981 and later editions are valid and easily cross checked with other sources. Later editions of the book attracted no legal actions. I will re-instate the reference to post 1981 editions of The Destruction of Convoy PQ17 after the two week moratorium unless anyone can show that the research contained in the post 1981 editions is not valid. Perdiccas 14:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree here. A person who has disqualified himself incountable often by (at least) bad scientifc standard needs a positive verification rather than a falsification of his claim (and in such a case, that other source could be used, btw). Unless verified, Irving needs to be not cited here. Mausch 12:14, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Operation Knight´s Move

I have a bad feeling about that translation into English. An English native has to clear this, as I don´t know, with which meaning you associate "Knight´s Move". I would think, the movement of a knight. However, the original term Rösselsprung in Germany is much more associated with "Jumping of a horse". The chosen translation is due to the fact that "Rösselsprung" also is the used term for the movement of the Knight (Chess) in Chess game. However, in Germany, the Chess Knight is called Springer (Jumper). After all, Rösselsprung does not associate with the medieval fighters. Unless natives do think of the chess movement when hearing "Knight´s Move", we should change the translation into "Horse Jump". Mausch 16:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Whilst I entirely agree with your reasoning, the use of the term "Knight's Move", in relation to Rösselsprung is accepted terminology in the vast majority of English texts on PQ17. To change to a more literal translation at this point may only cause confusion to the reader, especially when trying to cross reference with other works. I would recommend retaining the term "Knight's Move" but ensure that it is always followed by Rösselsprung in brackets. Using the term "Horse Jump" will have no meaning to the English reading student of the Arctic war at sea. Perdiccas 14:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Sadly, one of the examples how bad translations become valid translation. Then let´s keep it, but I will add a remark. Mausch 12:06, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

rösselsprung means a move two steps ahead and one to the side, used in chess and other less known games, it is not at all associated with the animal but with the horse-shape of the knight figure in chess, for a german speaking reader the translation horse jump is obviously wrong... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.162.23.168 (talk) 19:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, the coat of arms of Stuttgart shows the "Stuttgarter Rössle" and it clearly depicts a horse. I admit, this might be an association more intuitive for South Germans, but Rössle is no doubt related to the horse but definitly is not to the medieval fighter. horse jump is not obviously wrong to German speakers, as I am a native German speaker. However, the association with a medieval fighter has absolutely nobody. Please reread my introducing lines of this section. Mausch 20:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The fact that a word has a particular meaning in one language does not necessarily mean that it should have the equivalent meaning in another (linguistic equivalence being a well-established principle); if we were to take that stance we could make the reverse - and obviously incorrect - argument that the German chess piece should be known as Ritter because the English term is Knight. This is in no way a bad translation becoming a valid translation: it is simply an instance where cultural differences mean that the same concepts are expressed differently in different languages. An English speaker would say Knight's Move where a German speaker would say Rösselsprung, and the fact that they do not have the same literal meaning is neither here nor there.
I second Perdiccas's suggestion on how to handle expressing this difference, being the way a translator might handle a situation where the terms in both languages were required. However, if you still feel it necessary to clarify your understanding of the meaning of the German term, then a better way to handle it would be to specify this within the brackets following the German name, i.e. (Unternehmen Rösselsprung - lit. horse jump). 67.170.82.12 02:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree with most of what you say. Actually, we have no issue here any more, as solely the fact that, as Perdiccas says, Knight´s Move became the English name of the operation, whether rightfully or not, is reason enough to keep that translation. Just one short note: I stumbled upon this, because I first read of it in English and my immediate thought was: The original name of the operation must be somewhat like "Ritterschlag" or whatever - a quiet bold association - and I have been pretty surprised when reading it was "Rösselsprung", which is tiny. So, yes, I do think that this translation was a bad one, because it shifted the meaning from a chess game towards medieval ages. Your suggestion is in how to deal with it is good and I will edit a variant. Mausch 09:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Losses on 4th July

According to Jack Broome's own book, three ships, not two, were lost on 4th July: Christopher Newport early in the day to an attack by a lone Heinkel, and two others (and a tanker damaged) to the second massed attack by Heinkel He 115s in the afternoon. Is this a contended point, or can I safely amend the article? Philip Trueman 16:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Tricky; Christopher Newport was bombed and sunk in the early hours of 4th July (though in the continuous daylight it's all a bit relative). Navarino and William Hooper were bombed around midday, and had to be abandoned; they were sunk just after midnight. Azerbaijan, the tanker , was damaged in the same attack, but was able to continue. Xyl 54 (talk) 15:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


On a separate issue, there were 24 ships lost in this action, but only the American ones are listed; is there a reason for that? Xyl 54 (talk) 15:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] David Irvine (again)

There should be a link to David Irvine and his libel case: see here. It was a significant legal case and is still taught in English law courses.--Major Bonkers (talk) 09:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rosselsprung

I've removed these three pieces.
This is misleading :-
"Tirpitz and her escorts were not in fact heading for the convoy; the movement was merely a change of berth"
And this is dubious :-
"The British intelligence services became aware of this, but Pound sent the order to scatter nevertheless"
And this is plain wrong:-
"However, following reports of the successes of the Luftwaffe and U-boats it was soon ordered back to port".
There is a discussion here if anyone is interested. Xyl 54 (talk) 14:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)