Talk:Concorde

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    [edit] Taxiing fuel

    This article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5195964.stm

    claims that concorde spent 2 tonnes of fuel taxiing to the runway? Is that right?WolfKeeper 02:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

    Christopher Orlebar's book (6th ed, P84) mentions loading 1.4 tonnes for taxiing at Heathrow on a 'typical' flight. TimS00 07:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] 'E' for 'Ecosse'

    I have added a reference to the claim Benn replied "E stands also for Ecosse", the French name for Scotland., more precisely "Dogfight: The Transatlantic Battle over Airbus" by Ian McIntyre states (page 20):

    Benn also, inevitably, had a disgruntled letter form a man living north of the border. "I live in Scotland, and you talk about 'E' for England, but part of it is made in Scotland." This small-minded son of Caledonia got an accommodating reply, but Benn let off stream in his diary—"I wrote back and said that it was also 'E' for 'Ecosse'—and I might have added 'e' for extravagance and 'e' for escalation as well!"

    The book is also nice enough to give reference to the original source: Tony Benn, Diaries, Vol. 1: Out of the Wilderness, 1963-1967 (London: Osprey Publishing Company, 1988), ISBN 0091706602 I believe. Unfortunately, I don't have access to that book, but it would be awesome if someone had (if your local library has it, you can just do a quick check of the quote) so we can cite original sources.

    -- Woseph 17:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

    I have the 1988 paperback published by Arrow. This quote is given on page 514. Drutt (talk) 14:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Removed supposition

    I've removed the Quote "Both were largely funded by their respective governments as a way of gaining some foothold in the aircraft market that was until then dominated by the United States." It's actually wrong, since the comet had a pretty big "foothold" being the only jet airliner of the time. I can only imagine the original writer doesn't know much about the time.

    I've modified the statement. Both companies had more than a foothold in commercial and jet aviation at that time. The Comet, the VC10 and other British airliners are evidence enough. --Jumbo 00:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Noticable temperature gradient in cabin?

    Quote from article:

    "...producing a noticeable temperature gradient along the length of the cabin"

    In the cabin part of the fuselage, outside temperature had a gradient from 94C in front, to 90C at the very back. It would surprise me if this small gradient was noticable directly on the inside. Rather, I think what was felt was possibly just a gradient caused by the airco, having nothing to do with the outside fuselage gradient.

    If this is a case of semantics, than it should be made clear that "noticable" does not mean "noticable for the passengers".

    link for gradient: http://www.aircraft-info.net/aircraft/jet_aircraft/aerospatiale/concorde/

    Nicolas Herdwick 08:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

    You could definitely feel how the windows warmed up if you touched them. The heating was most noticeable in the lavatory. It was quite warm in there and the heat would be rather uncomfortable if one had to sit for any length of time. But in terms of noticing a difference from front to back, no, it wasn't noticeable as a passenger. 1995hoo 22:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] add a picture of the curvature as seen from Concorde?

    Would it be nice to add a picture of the earth's curvature as seen from Concorde in the trivia, such as this one?

    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39489000/jpg/_39489257_barbaracurvature203.jpg

    I was wondering whether the windows were flat or gave an increased sense of curvature due to being curved themselves?

    Now that I think about it, the "livery limits" trivia should mention the problems with the blue Pepsi livery, and also link to a picture of that unique livery.

    Nicolas Herdwick 08:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] The Designers and Engineers

    I notice that the article doesn't mention any of the senior designers and engineers behind Concorde. Those watching this page may be interested to know that I've added an article on Sir George Edwards who, besides his many other achievements, led the British Concorde team.

    JH 20:30, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] External links

    We have a lot of external links. Ideally these should be included in the article.

    But I'm not clear we have the rights to use the videos that are linked to (they need to be examined on a case-by-case basis.)

    I'm also not clear that we should go into as much detail as some of the linked to websites do; in some cases they seem to be more or less unique references; and we don't have copyright for much of the material.

    What does everyone else think?WolfKeeper 12:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

    I think that neither facts nor links impinge copyright.
    --64.31.159.157 (talk) 14:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
    Though perhaps I should log in before saying so.  :-)
    --Baylink (talk) 14:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Ozone Claim?

    There seems to be disagreement, and no citations over the ozone layer destruction/seeding claim, so I've hidden that section (not deleted it) for the time being. Does anyone have any citations one way or the other? --BadWolf42 11:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

    OK, we have a good cite that Concorde does indeed increase ozone depletion at cruise alitudes, so the last sentence in the original text was correct. Therefore the suggestion the (uncited) dissent was misplaced is contradicted in the very next sentence. It's therefore just hearsay.

    It's also not exactly neutral, is it? It claims it's a myth that an anti-SST scientist used to ironcially quash her production. Perhaps the skin cancer quote was unfair, but was it this scientist that said this? Citation?

    WolfKeeper: if you want the skin cancer comment in there, please cite it and rewrite the paragraph to be NPOV. I feel my rephrasing is both NPOV and covers the environmental opposition. --BadWolf42 14:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

    I have several major disagreements with your edits:

    • your edits imply or can be read to imply that Concorde damaged or would greatly damage the Ozone layer to a significant degree, whereas the cite states that the smaller fleet of Concorde and the lower level that it flew than the planned Boeing aeroplanes it would not have done so.
    • the cited source (that I added after only a couple of minutes looking) said that different studies came to different conclusions, including some that said that the ozone level would increase, others that said a decrease, and stated that one of the effect of nitrous oxide was to remove chlorine atoms from the upper atmosphere (hint: CFC = *Chlorinated* FluoroCarbons, which are *currently* forming ozone holes).
    • you removed the history where claims were made that SSTs including Concorde would destroy the ozone layer, and you did so without actually using google or doing any other checking. In other words, you deleted information you didn't like the sound of.
    • your understanding of NPOV is utterly flawed. NPOV is about *capturing* POVs not removing POVs. It couldn't be, because everything ever written is *somebodies* POV, so the wikipedia would be empty. You have just deleted POVs with your edit, without any research, repeatedly. Please read Wikipedia:NPOV: "Neutral Point of View (NPOV) is a fundamental Wikipedia principle which states that all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, that is, they must represent all significant views fairly and without bias."
    • you didn't try adding cite tags for information that you claim was unsupported (but you didn't even try to check)...

    In short. Stop. Stop doing this. Your work is bad. Please stop. You are damaging the article this way.WolfKeeper 15:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

    OK, I have several major disagreements with the way you work too.

    Retaining a seriously point of view and uncited paragraph that then contradicts itself a sentence later is one of these.

    Failing to address these concerns even after rejecting an attempt to be neutral is another.

    This article is a mess. It's full of unsubstantiated claims, lists, poor English and bias. Let's try to make it better, not keep it in it's current state.

    • My edits do not imply there was serious damage, they state clearly there would be some damage (the cite says this). The paragraph was not comparing levels of damage with the 2707, it said the destruction was a myth. False.
    • You did indeed provide the cite, after I invited the two diametrically opposite points of view in the paragraph to do so. The cite substantiated the non-encyclopedic dissent added by User:61.68.178.83. Disagree? At no point in either of the long nor short conclusions is there any indication that ozone will increase (as the poor version I cut claims), all models suggest a decrease, by varying amounts.
    • I deleted an allegation that a particular scientist, labelled 'anti-SST', gave that specific quote and that it had been a major factor. This is because it's uncited, non-NPOV and wrapped up in a palpable rant about irony and myths. If it's a genuine quote, the scientist can be named or his staunchly anti-SST viewsa are on record, then by all means put them back. With a cite. Otherwise it's simply unsubstantiated, wooly, inflamatory commentary. I'm not saying the information shouldn't be there, I'm simply saying it shouldn't be there in the form it's in. That's why initially I simply commented it out instead of deleting it wholesale.
    • I'm familiar with the requirements of NPOV and it does not say that all points of view shall be allowed their own bias, nor that one biased piece appended by a diametrically opposite statement qualifies as NPOV. All views are to be represented without bias.

    For example, compare the paragraph as it was:

    One great irony in the quashing of Concorde's mass production was the myth of an ozone threat. An anti-SST scientist suggested that the jet would produce exhaust which would cause the destruction of the earth's ozone layer, causing "a massive outbreak of skin cancer" and other effects, and this quickly became an accepted view, contributing greatly to the movement against the SST. But, when actual science was applied to the question, it was found that Concorde exhaust emissions, containing NOx, at some altitudes would actually increase the ozone layer to a tiny degree. This is true for tropospheric flight, where ozone is a pollutant, but incorrect for stratospheric flight, where the increase in NOx depletes ozone. The different outcomes are a result of pressure and pollutant concentration differences. But whilst arguments were made over whether the aggregate effects were slight increases or decreases, the science agreed that Concorde really would have made no significant large scale changes, unlike CFCs.
    I think it's fair to say there's a considerable level of POV to the second. It's an irony, it's a myth, an anti-SST scientist (surely just a scientist?), actual science. Then a totally contrary POV section before finally a sentence that seeks to present the facts neutrally. Unfortunately that belies its bias with unneccessary emphasis (really would) and a passing throw-away about CFCs instead of reasoning that the effect could perhaps be written off as negligable compared to them.

    with the one that now stands:

    Concorde produces nitrogen oxides in her exhaust, which are damaging to the ozone layer at the stratospheric altitudes she cruises. It has been pointed out that other, lower-flying, airliners actually produce ozone during their flights in the troposphere, but vertical transit of gases between the two is highly restricted[9]. There have been accusations that the anti-SST lobby overstated the case for ozone degredation to suit their political ends.
    I agree it's not perfect, I don't have the skin cancer quote for sure, but it states both cases: Concorde produces NOx, we know that damages ozone at altitude, lower-flying airliners produce ozone, but they don't mix. Sure if you want to mention the competing factors, go ahead, but none actually increase the concentration of ozone, unlike as claimed above. Then there's a comment about a distinctly identifable lobby against Concorde and other SSTs talked it up to their advantage. No bias one way or ther other, both views address with your excellent cite.

    Wherefore the problem here?

    • Yes, I don't have time to check the large number of uncited claims in this article, but to flag the ones that need doing is a step in the right direction so we can identify them for later targeting. I can put an uncited article banner in too, if you prefer?

    Thank you for your opinion of my work, I disagree and find the current article shoddy. The feature article application seems to agree with me. I intend to work to improve it. Reverting to blatently non-NPOV paragraphs with no coherant structure (quote above) does not help this, and is in my opinion, bad work. If you disagree with an edit, please change it, but don't revert to a worse state. And I don't think many would agree the paragraph I excised is acceptable. --BadWolf42 17:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] re: concord, "ships and aircraft are always feminine (her/she) in English"

    This is certainly true of individual aircraft, but to refer to the whole class of Concord aircraft is rediculous.

    Concorde is a bit of a weird case really. It's always singular for example. Given that it's definitely feminine in the singular, and given that Concorde is always singular, then I argue that the class of Concorde must be feminine also.WolfKeeper 14:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    There might be one or two places where it it's a bit arguable, but in most places it should be 'her'. In the collective plural you could consider 'they' I suppose.WolfKeeper 14:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    This isn't true, and there's no requirement to call an aircraft or a ship "she", just a stylistic preference. There's nothing wrong with "it". ProhibitOnions (T) 11:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
    That is crazy! Calling a ship "she" is NOT a stylistic preference, but rather, a justified rule of the English language. There is deep history behind this. One of these roots is in the Latin language, the source of lots of things in English (other rules come from German or Danish), where the word for "ship" is feminine.
    Interestingly, in Russian, a ship is masculine, and in German it is neuter.
    As a matter of practive in the USA, a ship is supposed to be feminine (though lots of people don't follow this rule, either), but an airplane, being a much newer form of technology, is neuter. Therefore, it is correct to call an aircraft "it", but ships are supposed to be "she". You can learn a lot from finding out about the historical background behind things, rather than just thinking that they are arbitrary choices. ('A matter of style'.)
    Interestingly, small spacecraft are called "it", but hypothetical large spacecraft of the future (e.g. the starship "Enterprise"), being more like ships, of course, are called "her".
    Concorde is pretty consistently referred to as she by BA[1]WolfKeeper 19:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
    BBC seems to skirt the issue by avoiding it or she.WolfKeeper 19:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Definate article versus Pronoun in abstract

    That first word is always spelled "definite" in English, so you have misspelled it.
    Furthermore, the word "Concorde" is never a pronoun (where did you get that crazy idea from?), but rather "Concorde" is always a noun. Let me give you a list of the ordinary pronouns in English: {I, you, he, she, it, him, her, we, they, them}.
    In addition, there are the possessive pronouns, the interrogative pronouns, and the relative pronouns, that have other grammatical uses.

    DAW72.146.8.51 14:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

    See the extensive history on this topic. It apparently is a aberrant but accepted nomenclature for this iconic technology. FWIW Bzuk 14:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC).

    I'm of the opinion the first line of the article should start "The Aerospatiale/BAC Concorde was...", not simply "Aerospatiale/BAC Concorde was...".

    The objection to this is that Concorde is a pronoun and doesn't take the definate article.

    I think this misses a subtlety of the English language, that of Concorde acting both as a pronoun and as type designator. In this sense it's acting as a type designator, in the same way that "Boeing 747" does. The qualifying of it with the manufacturers is what effects this change in voice. "Concorde was..." but "The BAC Concorde was..."

    I'm not that concerned about it, but as it's the first line, it's a little nigglesome. Is this just me? The opening sentence doesn't seem to parse at all well otherwise.

    Perhaps we don't need the manufacturers here at all? Then it would scan. --BadWolf42 16:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

    It's really tricky.WolfKeeper 17:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    Concorde needs to be refered to as a concept rather than as a physical instantiation wherever possible; that seems to be the clear convention. And I suppose you can refer to Concorde as a concept as her, so it's female.WolfKeeper 17:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    And since there is only one concept of Concorde, putting a 'The' in front of it gives you an instance (example) of Concorde, rather than the concept; otherwise it would be too confusing. So if particular Concorde aircraft(s) did something that Concorde wouldn't normally do, (like crash or lose part of the tail) then it's just about acceptable to add a definite article; the, her.WolfKeeper 17:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    Yes, but my point is in the first sentence we're referring to Concorde the type rather than Concorde the concept. See, for example, the first line of Boeing 747. Concorde itself is subject to a few strange language exceptions, one is the application of simply 'Concorde' to each occurance of one, no matter that they number more than one. In referring to her history, it's therefore correct to call her simply 'Concorde' or 'she', but her type designator doesn't get subject to this.
    For example, you won't have ever heard 'And here comes Aerospatiale/BAC Concorde'. 'And here comes an Aerospatiale/BAC Concorde', would be used. --BadWolf42 19:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Work Needed

    A lot of this article is lists, duplicated information and uncited material, and some text reads from a fan's eye view, not NPOV.

    A few lists are OK, but we should try to put as much into prose as possible, I think. A reference storming session would be good, too. I'd encourage anyone editing a section to flag with {{fact}} any hard fact, or contentious assertation that ought to be cited, so we can readily spot what needs work.

    I see this article had a short-lived featured nomination, the criticisms seem the same, let's try to fix them.

    Cheers. --BadWolf42 11:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] British and American english

    I just want to point out that there are NO policies stating that an article about a british plane does not require that article be written in british english, nor does it prevent anyone from changing it. Certainly an article about the Italian government is not required to be written in italian, and if it were, wikipedia offers no regulations to changing it to english.Aspensti 19:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

    Apart from Wp:mos#National varieties of English, that is. Please don't continue to change it. --Guinnog 19:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

    It's interesting to me that someone put a note in the "Paris crash" section of the article about using the British spelling "tyres" as to a British aircraft. I believe it was a French aircraft that went down, not a British one. :-) 1995hoo 15:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

    True. In France they speak French though, not English, and certainly not American English. Which is why we have "tyres" and not "tires". --Guinnog 12:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
    I don't disagree with it overall, I just found that comment funny. The article should be consistent throughout, which to me is a stronger rationale than the "British aircraft" pooint in that comment. 1995hoo 15:06, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
    If it wasn't for the British aircraft angle, people would attempt to change the whole article in one edit. If they were successful then it would still be self-consistent (except with the MOS).WolfKeeper 21:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
    I agree. Have you seen this and this? --Guinnog 21:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
    I wish to inform you that the words "English", "British", etc., are ALWAYS to be capitalized. And I am an American, myself, too, but we love the word "English" and the English language & people. Please do not be ignorant about capitalization. I have gone through this section and capitalized the words that need to be capitalized, but weren't before. The following paragraph also contained a "double-negative", which inverted the whole meaning of what he was trying to say. I have corrected that. The Wilipedia is also always capitalized, and so is the word "Internet", as I am continually pointing out. In English (yes, English), there is a big difference between a common noun and a proper noun.

    DAW 72.146.8.51 15:21, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

    A point that was entirely missing in the above, is that in France, when they are learning/speaking English, they generally speak British English, and use its peculiar spellings, etc.! So, if you demand consistency in spelling, go ahead and use the British spelling, because in France, when they are using English, they use British English.

    I also agree that consistency within the article is a far more important point than rather the airliner involved was a "French" one or a "British" one. I also think that making that distinction is a silly one: a Concorde is a "British-French" one.

    Equally silly would be arguing whether a particular F-16 fighter plane was a Dutch one, a Belgian one, a Danish one, a Norwegian one, a Japanese one, or an American one, depending on which country that that plane was manufactured in! It is helpful that all of them are all from an American design, so we just call it "American", anyway.

    More difficult is the "Tornado" fighter plane, which was designed and manufactured by all three of the European countries of the U.K., Germany, and Italy. Once again, deciding on whether to call it British, German, or Italian, depending upon where it was manufactured, is rather silly. The Tornado is British-German-Italian, for Pete's sake. DAW 72.146.8.51 15:21, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

    • This is a discussion page, not an article. It is customary to not edit the comments of other posters, even to correct spelling and grammar. In addition, some people use double negatives for emphasis in informal settings (such as talk pages), while others do not accept the "mathametizing" of the English language by some grammarians. - BillCJ 16:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

    FWIW, my understanding of the general en.WP policy on this is that AE/BE spelling choices should be consistant within any one article, and that in general, they should probably be AE unless the topic of the article itself is something British. IOW: edits to make spelling/usages choices consistent are acceptable, but some judgement should be exercised in choosing your target. I, personally, would have no problems with this article choosing BE, but I'm not Jimbo.  :-)
    --Baylink (talk) 14:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Just checking

    The article contains a warning not to use American English. As both the UK and France use day-month-year International Dating, I'd like to add a warning not to use American Dating. I assume that this is non-controversial, but I'd like to check first. --Jumbo 11:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] End of service details

    The article had far too much trivial nonsense regarding the details of the final flights of the Concorde, celebrations involving it's retirement, and even an arduous list of who all was on the final flight. This is a textbook example of article bloat with trivial details, and as much as a teary-eyed diehard Concorde fanboy must have enjoyed reading it, it simply doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. I've cut out quite a bit. --Junky 04:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

    I was forced to revert your changes. You removed a picture of the chief Concorde pilot, you removed details about whether Concorde could ever fly again (the answer is maybe...). I do not feel these aspects that you have removed reach consensus, at the very least.WolfKeeper 04:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
    I think that the information about final flight celebrations is completely fascinating!
    Also, the information on the final resting places for all of the surviving Concordes.
    DAW 72.146.8.51 15:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
    Perhaps I, too, am a fanboi, Junky, but I have to agree with Wolfkeeper and DAW... maybe a complete list of passengers isn't called for, but the categorisation I see now (that one flight was all BA employees, for example) seems pertinent.
    --Baylink (talk) 14:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Weights maybe wrong

    The article lists the following:

    1. Empty weight: 173,500 lb (78,700 kg)
    2. Useful load: 245,000 lb (111,130 kg)
    3. Maximum fuel load: 210,940 lb (95,680 kg)
    4. Max takeoff weight: 408,000 lb (185,070 kg)

    The first three should add up to the last, no? Or is part of the "empty weight" (for example, seats) considered "useful load"?

    It seems not, judging by this:

    "The 1120 pounds of Useful Load is the total amount of weight that can be loaded onto the aircraft through a combination of fuel, pilot, passengers and baggage." [2] Seats are explicitly not included.

    They do not normally add up for aircraft, it's useful and desirable that they don't. It's very acceptable to reduce fuel load in aircraft for short distances, and this permits extra load to be carried. Or you can reduce the load and increase the fuel and go longer distances. So you can trade off load for fuel without exceeding any maximum and the aircraft makes more money.WolfKeeper 16:50, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Editing

    Respectfully, I have to agree with earlier editors in questioning the use of articles in the article, if you know what I mean. The argument given in the article that British observers typically described the Concorde as "Concorde" is fallacious; merely because it was a commonly mistaken useage does not relegate an important article such as this to the use of poor grammar and sentence structure.

    Well, in these kinds of things I usually bow to the BBC. The BBC try hard to get this kind of thing right. The BBC often, (but not absolutely always) uses simply 'Concorde'. I therefore believe that this usage is correct.WolfKeeper 15:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

    The equally erroneous and inflammatory declaration: "THIS ARTICLE USES BRITISH ENGLISH AS IT COVERS AN ANGLO-FRENCH AIRCRAFT. IN ACCORDANCE WITH WIKI POLICY (Wp:mos#National_varieties_of_English) PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CHANGE THIS TO AMERICAN ENGLISH;IT WILL ONLY GET REVERTED AND IN ANY CASE IT IS CONSIDERED VANDALISM" does not allow for knowledgable editors to employ conventional editing protocols that transcend boundaries. Canadian editors, for example, are well aware of British and American spellings and the slight variances in grammar and useage. Before anyone dumps on the latest edit, read it first. Say it out loud in the cadence of a speaking voice and you will notice that the edits are made in relation to context and syntax and not in an arbitary fashion. Imagine if someone was writing about another famous British aircraft, say, the Hawker Hurricane, and referred to it as "Hurricane became a famous Battle of Britain participant." Read the next passage, "the Hurricane fighter became a famous Battle of Britain participant." I am an editor by profession and not a Wikipedia vandal who would be delighted to debate the edits I have made (which did not challenge any factual or content submissions although I was sorely tempted to do so, considering some of the more dubious comments I encountered in the article). Bzuk 14:18, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

    I'm sorry, but that's not the way this word is used in the UK; see the policy.WolfKeeper 15:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
    For example see: British Airways tribute to Concorde and BBC concorde page.WolfKeeper 20:34, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

    Bearing in mind the sensitivities of a UK-based editor, I will endeavour, when I have time, to edit only the other aspects of this article. IMHO, it is not well-written although it does provide adequate technical details and references. My edits can be reviewed by other editors but note that I am utilizing conventional style and form. Bzuk 11:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


    Solving this will be difficult, but I have figured out your problem (very interesting problem indeed, you'll see).

    "Concorde," in the UK, embodies a sense of national pride. It is a British specific "homophore" and doesn't translate very well to those outside the UK. To put a little more simply, it is like British kind of slang and most people in Britain don't think twice about it.

    It's not a slang, the BBC rarely if ever uses slang. It's a convention.WolfKeeper 17:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

    It's like how the US uses "Space Shuttle Challenger" instead of "the Space Shuttle Challenger". The Challenger is a source of US national pride so is referred to in the US as just "Challenger." Here's two more examples on BBC and CNN: BBCCNN. Try reading the one from your home country first, then reading the other one.

    Except I don't how to solve this problem :d. -- 24.57.157.81 07:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

    It's easy. Learn English, rather than some mongrel 'American' masquerading as English. :p WolfKeeper 17:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

    I think the best approach would be no national pride, so "The Concorde" over "Concorde." There's no harm in national pride, and one can be perfectly neutral and still write proudly, but it is not worldly as the national pride inherent in the usage of "Concorde" does not translate. It's very tough to make that decision though. -- 24.57.157.81 07:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

    I tend to agree with the editor above. The Concorde article firstly should not be "British-specific" nor should poor semantics or grammar be used mainly because it is quaint or acceptable- see: "ain't" and "way cool" as examples. I cringe each time I read the Concorde article because it is intended to be written for an international audience. In refuting the other point; reread the Space Shuttle article on Wikipedia. When you refer to one of the shuttles, you can use "Challenger" but when you speak of a series of aircraft as "Concorde;" it just doesn't work properly. However, I bow to the vociferous defense of the site by editors such as WolfKeeper. Bzuk 15:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

    Hey, don't blame me, take it up with the BBC or British Airways.WolfKeeper 17:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

    I think I mislead you both. I was not in any way trying to impugn upon the BBC by suggesting they use slang, I was using slang as an example of words only understandable within a culture so you could compare the linguistic nature of the word "Concorde." This is not an issue of grammar or of "proper" or "improper" English, and if you keep thinking it is you will never solve the problem. The grammar changes because the word Concorde means something totally different in the UK. When it comes to grammar, using "Concorde" makes it look, to non-Brits, like the grammar is screwed up because they automatically read a different definition. This is an issue of cultural definition. The definition of "Concorde" in the UK is simply different--not bad, not worse, no value judgement, just different. Also, I see my Challenger example was misleading too. The Concorde being a series of aircraft complicates the real issue, which is cultural differences in usage. Woodpeckers, for instance, are a "series" of birds but in the abstract are referred to as "The Woodpecker" not "Woodpecker."

    I believe in the UK they are more usually refered to as Woodpeckers because there is more than one species. In fact putting 'the' in front is considered archaic, and whilst I'm not an English expert it is probably actually incorrect English.WolfKeeper 04:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

    In the UK, "Concorde" means something like "Project Concorde." Only British people use it this way. Outside of the UK, Concorde means the plane and that is all it means. Using the word Concorde without the definite article causes those that are not exposed to this usage to interpret "Concorde" as "The Concorde Company" and, then, since that does not exist (AeroSpatiale/BAC is the company) they default to "The Concorde Plane."

    That is slang. Your American slang is none of my concern.WolfKeeper 04:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

    Outside of the UK "Concorde" does not mean "The Concorde Project" and you cannot get around this because people outside the UK will never default to this meaning. People and media inside the UK do default to this meaning because "Concorde" was a national project. People outside the UK default to a less-rich and more literal interpretation.

    My suggestion to UK editors is that wherever the use of the UK "Concorde" would be appropriate, you substitute "The Concorde Project" if that's what you are really talking about. --24.57.157.81 22:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

    How about: no.WolfKeeper 04:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

    Respectfully, keep in mind the mottos:

    • Be polite
    • Assume good faith
    • No personal attacks
    • Don't bite the newcomers!

    The fact that the argument is being turned on a "British" theme, is disquieting, I believe that most observers would consider "the Concorde Project" or "Concorde" to be a iconic story that transends nationalistic sentiment. Bzuk 15:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

    I find the fact that you seem to be trying to imply that this isn't a subject of British nationalistic pride to be verging on the racist. Don't the British people get to make that call not you? If and when your government spends £1+ billion (in ~1970 money) and 20,000 people work on a project for years, then it seems to me that your people get to name it. In the meantime, it's an iconic Anglo-French project and so the British people get to determine the English vernacular used here and the French in the French language section under the Wikipedia rules and policies.WolfKeeper 17:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
    Or perhaps you have misunderstood the concept of an encyclopedia, it's not sufficient or necessary for an encyclopedia to sound right, it must actually be right. Changing the encyclopedia merely because it 'sounds better', is unacceptable. The usage 'the Concorde' except when Concorde is used as an adjective is incorrect in this article, and that is as much part of the history of the aircraft as anything else here. End of story.WolfKeeper 17:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

    Again: * No personal attacks "...verging on the racist..." PLEASE * Be polite, * Assume good faith (and not be condescending) No one is disputing that Concorde is not a British product or an example of British innovation or a source of pride for those that designed, developed and flew the magnificent airliners; I already had mentioned that due to vociferous defense of the article, I bow to the UK editors, but: * Don't bite the newcomers! These words of wisdom are stated at the outset of this discussion; they appear to be good advice. Bzuk 25:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC) Whoops I read this note in edit format and did not mean to change your comment, I started editing it out of habit, e.g. commas go inside quotes. Bzuk 02:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Crash photo

    Hi. I (sadly) reverted this splendid photo out (which I uploaded) because its fair use justification only allows its use on the one article specifically on the crash. I am awfully sorry, wish that it were otherwise, and would welcome a way round this but don't see what that would be. Sorry. --Guinnog 21:15, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Cost per ticket?

    How much, approximately, was a ticket on the Concorde?

    It varied with market demand, and whether you just wanted to fly, or *had* to fly. :-)WolfKeeper 17:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    [3]"By 1980, the price was $1 a gallon. With a Concorde burning as much fuel as a 747, while carrying far fewer passengers, the effects were catastrophic. By 1982 a round-trip Concorde ticket between New York and Paris cost $3,900. In 2000, it came to $8,148.".WolfKeeper 17:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    Note that that was a round trip. It was often far cheaper flying west than east. The east bound flight cost maybe 3-5x more than the west bound- this was because the East bound flight avoided the overnight red eye on the 747, which completely messes up your bodyclock. In maybe 1999, although I never got a firm price I was quoted about £800 one-way going west from a guy who's father worked as an engineer on Concorde for the British Airways. That presumably would give you some idea of the cost price.WolfKeeper 17:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    Because of the shiny-one-of-a-kind factor British Airways were making an extremely healthy profit on Concorde. I'm not sure what if anything Air France were doing wrong, but they didn't seem to make much profit.WolfKeeper 17:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    You could also buy supersonic flights around the Bay of Biscay for maybe $1600 or less.WolfKeeper 17:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    It varied considerably. In May 2003 I was quoted $10,507 round-trip on Air France when I looked into flying Concorde to Paris for a Bruce Springsteen concert as a birthday trip. Later that year I paid about $7,000 to fly eastbound from JFK to Heathrow on a 747 on a Friday and then back to New York on the Sunday afternoon BA001 on Concorde. There were specials from time to time, though, and had I done the Paris trip it would have worked out to be $5,203.50 for all practical purposes because American Express had a two-for-one deal with Air France. 1995hoo 22:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

    Thanks for the information on ticket prices. Any idea about the cost of the special flights- "shooting the eclipse" over northern Canada, the air show overflights at Abbotsford, Oshkosh and the like? I always harboured the dream to sail to Europe on the Queen Elizabeth and zip back on a Concorde for a "no-holds barred" vacation. Bzuk 17:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

    I'm sorry I don't know, you would have to google it.WolfKeeper 18:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    I believe those all varied depending on the nature of the flight. The special subsonic flight from Toronto to New York in October 2003 was $999. There was a special New Year's flight at the end of 2001 that was either $2002 or £2002 (sorry, I don't recall which, and I know that's a big difference). 1995hoo 22:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Alternative spellings and numbers

    Takeoff says takeoff.

    Cambridge says take-off.

    I don't like intra-wiki citing, except on matters of style or policy, but fair enough, it seems in general use, certainly on the other side of the pond (Webster American has it as one word, for example).

    Therefore I won't edit a contribution that uses either, but I will edit mass changes as it seems a matter of preference. Same goes for despatch/dispatch and other preference spellings.

    Similarly for numbers, I won't change contributions that don't break MOS:NUM, but I will undo changes that simply alter short text to digits in prose. It's personal preference, and both styles are deemed OK in the MOS.

    Fair enough?

    Cheers --BadWolf42 19:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

    More than fair enough, sorry for hasslin' you (notice country cousin spelling here).

    Bzuk 22:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Unintelligible sentence

    First flown in 1969, Concorde service commenced in 1976.

    Commence (verb) - to begin, to start.

    What is the difference between "first flown" and "started"? --Urod 03:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

    Nothing. But there is a difference between 'first flown' and being in 'service' though. Service is to do with it actually being useful/commercial rather than just the protoype flying. So the sentence is actually perfectly correct.WolfKeeper 03:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

    Well, yeah, but the *common* phrasing is "revenue service" in the commercial transport industry...
    --Baylink (talk) 14:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Entry into service

    Readgin the Tupolev 144 article, it says it entered into service in November 1977, whereas the Concorde article claims the latter did in January 1976. However at the end of the Concorde article it is said that the Tupolev entered first into service. Are these dates correct and are they referring to the same things?

    [edit] Moved?

    Did I miss some consensus to move this page? I thought Concorde was a fine title. --Guinnog 04:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

    Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (aircraft):
    *Special cases: some aircraft are so well known that it makes more sense to break the usual rules. In theory, the Anglo-French supersonic airliner should be the Aerospatiale-BAC Concorde, but it is so well known as just Concorde that it is better to leave it there; the Mitsubishi A6M is universally known as the Mitsubishi Zero.
    - BillCJ 04:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
    I agree. You beat me by seconds in moving it back. --Guinnog 04:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
     :) Am fixing the redircts too. It's a LONG list. I'm starting from the top, so if you want t5o take it from the bottom, that would be nice. Either way, I'll get it done tonight. - BillCJ 04:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Thirty centimeters

    It is mentionned twice that the Concorde lengthens by 30 cm while in flight. Is it necessary to have it written two times?

    [edit] Recent changes reverted

    I reverted the recents changes by Vwozone for the following reasones:

    1. The lead pic (pic in the Aircraft Infobox) is generally preferred to be one of the aircraft in flight. In addition, I saw no apparent reason for deleting the picture already in place. I have placed the BA photo underneath the infobox, and moved the Brigde picture there also, to fill the blank space beside the TOC.
    2. The Fields in the Infobox are not to be changed; doing so blanks the entire line. The Infobox is a template, which means the format is coded elsewhere. Thus "More users" cannot be changed to "Other users".
    3. If there is a date in the "Retired" field, leave the "Status" field blank. There is a lengthy discussion on the reasons here.
    4. The replacement of the reasons for the end of operations. Neither statement is cited, so I have added a {{Fact}} tag to the older statement.

    Thanks. - BillCJ 21:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

    Fair enough, sorry about the editing mistakes with the infobox. I'll look into citations for retirement reasons. vwozone 16:55, 15 December 2006

    [edit] Main Photo

    Does anybody have a picture of British Airways Concorde in flight to which they hold the copyright to replace the main image? Ideally a picture with the landing gear fully retracted, and ideally of speedbird flagship G-BOAC. Thanks vwozone 10:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

    What's wrong with the pic that's there now? Air France was a user also. - BillCJ 14:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

    True, but I'm sure there is a better picture - for one reason, landing gear is extended in the image - and I'm sure many users will understand my reasons for wishing for Speedbird Concorde in place of an air france Concorde, although I can understand if people would conversely prefer an air france concorde. I've seen a lot of great images of British Airways Concordes - a lot of which I guess will be because of a lot of air to air photography which was set up - I know of one mission involving an RAF tornado to undertake such photography. I just ask if anyone has any good images, and naturally I would prefer the British airways flagship, although this is not so important. vwozone

    I actually have no prefrence for BA or AF, was just wandering about the reasons, which you have explained. If we can find a good aerial shot of the BA flagship, I won't object to placing it in the lead, provided it's better than the current one, and that the pic is not too tall (extends the Infobox too much). - BillCJ 16:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

    Thanks, I will see if I can hunt anything down. vwozone

    Perhaps someone could ask about using one of these: [4]. I love the one of G-BOAD, but it's probably zoomed out too much. 1995hoo 22:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] development support aircraft

    Do the BAC 211 (modified Fairey Delta 2) and Handley Page HP.115 warrant a mention for their use for high speed and low speed (respectively) delta wing research? GraemeLeggett 11:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

    yes, I think they do. vwozone 13:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Lay-mans terms

    I noticed that there is a phrase in the first paragraph titled 'general features': "Throughout the landing approach Concorde was on the "back side" of the drag curve".

    Now I have around 30 hours solo flight time in sailplanes, not a lot, but i would say i have far more then your average persons knowledge of flight mechanics, yet i still couldn’t figure out what this was referring to. Perhaps someone who understands this could find a simpler way of expressing it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.4.74.65 (talk) 16:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

    Not really :-) Basically at low speeds concorde flew at a very high angle of attack, sort of stalled really (except delta-wings don't, exactly, stall). Raising the nose of the aircraft at those speeds causes the speed to drop and the aircraft to sink, whereas normally raising the nose gains you altitude. So Concorde more or less flew on throttle at low speeds, as I understand it.WolfKeeper 19:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Concordes Given Names?

    Are there any Concordes that have been "named"? Some airliners such as Clipper Maid of the Seas and Tuthmosis III were named. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.16.151.77 (talk) 19:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

    They've traditionally been called by the last two letters of their registration in the phonetic alphabet; thus, G-BOAD (Golf Bravo Oscar Alpha Delta) is normally called "Alpha Delta," for example. The only use of another name that I can recall was when Tony Blair chartered Alpha Echo to fly to Washington in November 2001. People called it "Blair Force One." (Alpha Delta was sometimes called "the Singapore Concorde" when she flew in dual BA/Singapore colors, and Sierra Delta was called the "Pepsi Concorde" when she wore the Pepsi livery, but I'd suggest that these were descriptions rather than names.) But these are not really the same sort of thing as what you describe. There were never any formal names in the style used by Pan Am. I'd imagine that the uniqueness of Concorde made it unnecessary to come up with a further special identity. (If you really want a thorough answer, post your query on the forum at ConcordeSST.com.) 1995hoo 20:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
    It should also me noted that the system 1995hoo describes above isn't completely unique to Concorde; many airliners in general are informally referred to by the last two (or sometimes three) letters of their registration; this is why they're often painted on other places, most obviously the nose gear doors. --Scott Wilson 17:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
    I didn't mean to imply that it was unique to Concorde. Sorry if it came across that way. 1995hoo 22:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
    I don't think that quite rises to "naming" (not even "BlairForce One", which wasn't official). It's common practise for ATCrs to call "Island Hoppers niner-five alpha" or "Hughes niner-five alpha" (to steal from "Magnum"), which isn't a name as such. Trekphiler 02:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Infobox image

    Image:Concorde - Air France.jpg
    Original version
    Image:Concorde - Air France(rotated).jpg
    Modified version

    Kudos to whoever found the image now being used in the infobox - it's a beautiful picture of Concorde, and an excellent start to the article. I have, however, taken the liberty of rotating and cropping the image so that the horizon's level. Admittedly this means we lose that same horizon and the resulting image is slightly smaller, but we don't have Concorde at a funny angle. Is this an improvement? Should we use it in the page? Should I just have the modified version speedied? All comments and constructive criticism welcome. --Scott Wilson 14:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

    I like the mod version! However, it's an Air France plane, which won't make the BA-pic mafia happy. We've had a running battle with him/them over using the ground pic of G-BOAB as the lead. He/they won't discuss it, so it may just be low-grade vandalism, rather than any real pro-BA preference. Seriously though, it will be hard to find a better pic than that new one, whichever version we use. - BillCJ 16:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
    Hasn't the prior Air France pic been the lead for quite some time except in isolated cases where people tried to bump AB up? The new one is quite nice, though, and very deserving of the lead spot. I wonder when and where it was taken, given the position of the nose. 1995hoo 17:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
    That picture does look pretty good. Although, i would prefer a BA one (being british and all ;)), nought wrong with that pic!! Reedy Boy 21:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
    It looks too good to be true. The source site has it with a noncommercial license. The other images in that set look like they were dumped from some wallpaper site judging by the names and Google hits, so the Flickr user didn't have the right to apply any CC license. Unfortunately the original and the nicely modified version have to go. --Para 22:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Concorde Autopilot

    Surely that really wants to be on its own page?

    Reedy Boy 14:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

    It seems to be likely to be wp:copyvio I was considering taking it out entirely.WolfKeeper 01:57, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] RAF Concorde

    I have tried to add a comment about the proposed use by the RAF of Concorde as a bomber, first seen at the Farnborough Air Show 1968 Magazine. Where should this comment be placed within the Wikipedia article on the Concorde aircraft? Acb58 18:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

    Well, nowhere, unless we can establish that it is verifiable and we can decide it belongs in the article. Neither is obvious to me at the moment. --Guinnog 18:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

    This note is interesting in that it is the only reference I've ever seen that collaborates information I was told in 1981 by a senior British diplomat. He stated that the US Government paid off all development costs of the Concorde in return for stopping production of the aircraft. The reason given was to stop the aircraft from falling into the hands of third party nations and conversion to a bomber. Trevor Heath, January 1st 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by TrevorHeath (talk • contribs) 20:07, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] I'm Concorde, fly me

    Anybody know the date of her first transatlantic supersonic flight?If so, include it here, & on the transatlantc flight page? Trekphiler 02:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Air France pictures?

    There are NO pictures of Air France Concordes in this article, and it appears that there has been a conscious effort to eliminate them. Surely someone can find a public-domain picture of a French Concorde somewhere. Even though many of us regard the BA Concorde operation as far superior, the simple truth is that without the French involvement the whole thing would probably have fallen apart, and Air France played a real and important part in the Concorde story (both for good and for ill). I think it takes away from the article's neutral point of view to make it so BA-centered. (I do not know much about posting pictures on Wikipedia, so I'm not a good person to attempt to resolve this issue.) 1995hoo 15:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

    That's an awfully strong claim! There are only 3 AF pics on Wikipedia Commons, and anyone is able to upload free images there. An AIf France pic has been the lead in this article for a long time, and some users have been changing it to a BA pic for whatever reasons.
    Given the fact that there are now no AF pic in the article (which I did not realize), and no other really good AF pics available to post at this time, I am restoring the AF pic to the lead spot. Please leave it there for the time being. If someone can find more legally-usable AF pics to add to the article, we can consider addign a better pic to the lead at that time. - BillCJ 16:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Number of Crew

    In the Specifications section the number of crew is listed as 9. I assume this to include the number of flight attendents as well. As far as I recall other aircraft only list the flight deck crew for consitency should this be changed to 3 as Concorde only flew with three active flight deck crew (PF, PNF & FE)? -- Rehnn83 Talk 09:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)



    [edit] AfD nomination of List of Concorde pilots

    I've nominated List of Concorde pilots, for deletion as I do not feel that it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion; I have explained why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Concorde pilots, and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of List of Concorde pilots during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. → AA (talk • contribs) — 11:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

    Oppose AfD, see my comment on the relevant discussion page, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Concorde pilots. Please check the AfD requirements, I do not believe you are correct in your statement that the AfD template should not be removed. This is the quideline: Wikipedia:Deletion policy which states: "Any editor who disagrees with a proposed deletion can simply remove the tag. Even after the page is deleted, any editor can have the page restored by any administrator simply by asking. In both cases the editor is encouraged to fix the perceived problem with the page.
    Renominations: Once the proposed deletion of a page has been objected to by anyone, it may not be proposed for deletion again." IMHO Bzuk 12:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC).
    That's referring to Wikipedia:Proposed deletion which is to be used for (possibly) non-contentious deletions. I've nominated this under Wikipedia:Articles for deletion which has a different set up rules and requires community consensus on the outcome (whereas the WP:PROD can be overturned by any editor). To support your position, you would need to show why it isn't simply a list and that it is verifiable and notable. Please continue further discussions at the AfD page. → AA (talk • contribs) — 12:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Units

    • Is there some particular reason Imperial units are listed first (primary) with SI units second? This is mainly in the specs table and in the text in places also. I would think a European design would have SI units are primary. I was going to start switching the data in the spec table, but thought I'd ask first. What gives? -Fnlayson 23:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
    Concorde was designed before the UK went metric, therefore the figures from the manufacturers are in lbs, ft and ins. The wikipedia standards are that SI units must be included, but the original data source should typically be listed first. Given that I would recommend that you not swap the data around.WolfKeeper 23:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I was thinking it might be something like that. No need to switch anything then. -Fnlayson 23:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Blacking out at high altitudes

    This article on the Concorde perpetuates the myth that one would black out in aprox. 20 seconds in the thin air above, e.g., 50,000 feet. This is not true whatsoever, as can be demonstrate that many, many common people can withstand a minute, or more, without breathing at all, merely by holding one's breath. So, if the Concorde lost prressurization at high altitudes, merely hold your breath for as long as you can. Meanwhile, perhaps by then, the pilots will have dived the Concorde to a much-lower altitude.

    You can't hold your breath, lungs rupture if you do that. Actually the reason you can't survive at these altitudes is that the water in your lungs boils and fills them with water vapour; and this excludes the air.WolfKeeper 16:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

    Likewise, in the early 1960s, the United States Air Force (USAF) debunked the old myth of one's blood boiling if exposed to high altitudes or the vacuum of outer space. They showed that chimpanzees could withstand a vacuum for several minutes without ill effects.

    Do you have a cite for that? Possibly some may survive at those timescales, but I'm not sure what the LD50 time is for vacuum.WolfKeeper 16:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

    Perhaps this has been tried with human volunteers since then. Sir Arthur C. Clarke knew about the USAF experiments, and he wrote the results into the novel and movie, "2001: A Space Odyssey". When the astronaut Dave Bowman is locked out of the spaceship "Discovery I" by the crazed computer HAL, Bowman enters through an emergency airlock, withstanding the vacuum of space while doing so. If you look closely, you will notice that Bowman closes his eyes tightly before firing the escape hatch of his space pod. That was to prevent eye damage from rapid evaporation of the fluids on the outsides of his corneas and pupils. All this was solidly-backed up in Sir Arthur's mind by the results of the USAF tests. Many viewers of the movie were amazed by this sequence: "Why didn't his blood boil?" Well, Clark knew that it would not boil. DAW 72.146.8.51 16:19, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

    I think it's agreed that Arthur C. Clarke messed up some of these details, you have to exhale to avoid death, and if you do that you no longer have oxygen in your lungs, normal survival during drowning relies on that to a pretty fair degree.WolfKeeper 16:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
    See this NASA page for some information on the effects of vacuum, etc. Salmanazar 11:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Question: under the section of comparison with Tu-144

    It also had two crashes, one at the 1973 Paris Air Show, which made further sales impossible, and another during a cargo flight. Later versions had retractable canards for better low speed control,

    Is this a contradiction with the article on Tu-144? According to the Tu-144 page the canards were already installed at the time when it crashed in Paris; some suggested that the crash was caused by a Mirage trying to chase and photograph them. This rumour could not have occured if the canards was not there, I think. Can someone verify please?

    I can. Yes, the canards were installed initially on all production Tu-144; only the prototype lacked them. Also, the plane itself was larger and heavier than the Concorde, hence the lack of handling performance against Concorde. Also, it wasn't underpowered, it's cruising speed was actually higher than that of Concorde. Instead, the engines used at first (NK-144) in place of proposed RD-36-51 (which were not ready then) were very inefficient in terms of fuel consumption, so Tu-144 lacked transcontinental range, and were not equipped with thrust reversers. --unpluggged 11:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
    You have that a bit garbled, the NK-144 on the TU-144S were incapable of sustaining Mach 2.0 in supercruise, they could only manage a cruise of Mach 1.6.[5] They could activate the afterburners and slightly exceed Concorde's top speed, but I'm pretty sure that's more to do with thermal limits than anything else. I also suspect that Concorde could have hit the afterburners as well and done a speed dash if the designers had wanted it to do that (they doubtless would have had to make some changes, but it should have had enough power), but it was of no commercial value so they never bothered, since the afterburners drank fuel, it was just a cheap gimmick.WolfKeeper 14:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
    For instance, here and here you can find out that the cruising speed of Tu-144 was M = 2.16, and maximum speed was M = 2.35. Also, RD-36-51 were not equipped with afterburners at all. --unpluggged 11:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
    Tu-144D used RD-36-51 engines, and could fly from Moscow to Khabarovsk. But then, in 1978, the second air crash occurred during a test flight of Tu-144D. The reason was fuel leakage that caused fire onboard. In November 1978 passenger flights were stopped. Tu-144 continued to transport mail and cargo for a few years, but in early 1980s the flights were finally stopped. That's why I have placed the neutrality and accuracy template on this section. --unpluggged 11:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
    • If you have references for that, you ought to update/correct the Tu-144 info in the comparison section. -Fnlayson 13:26, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] where is concorde now?

    Most aviation lovers would know that concorde is clearly a marvel of engineering that took more than thounsands of aviation designers just to make the blue prints of it. This supersonic jet was fabricated by Britian and france, also it was the only airliner in the 20th century capable of reaching twice the speed of sound. However, sadly this aircraft retired because of the terrible crash that happened by Air France that claim the lives of 128 passengers. Many airline companies who owned concordes made numers of modification to assure the safety of their future passengers. For instance, the new concorde tires were capable of withstanding twice the pressure of its coventional tires. Also the wings were padded with bullet proof materials to prevent any penetration. But, even with all these improvements concorde lost its pride because of the low fuel efficiency of this great bird. Nonetheless, we can see the concorde on display in frech or english airports or in certain aviation museums.

    Actually no, the Soviets had one as well as is discussed on these pages - the Tu-144. There were only two airlines that owned Concordes - Air France and British Airways. Concorde was retired because it was, according to both airlines, no longer profitable. AJKGordon 16:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

    Singapore airliner had one as well. Plus, the fact that Concorde retired because it was not profitable is debatable.

    Actually, no, Singapore Airlines never had a Concorde. They might have painted one up as a promotion or something but, as I said above, only Air France and British Airways ever owned and commercially operated Concorde. AJKGORDON«» 19:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
    • In another website I read a very interesting article on Concorde that said that it was not retired because it was not profitable, but because it was more profitable to fly passengers on B747s and B777s.

    [edit] She or it?

    I see my changes from 'she' to 'it' in referring to Concorde have been reverted. I have two problems with the article as it now stands; firstly, I believe (and I think, though cannot now point to it, that there is a consensus for this here) that 'she', while correct in reference to ships, is not the recommended style for aircraft. The more fundamental problem though is that at the moment we have a mixture of (mostly) 'it' and a few instances of 'she'. I believe that on aesthetic grounds the former is preferable, but I believe far more strongly that one pronoun, not two, should be used in this article when referring to the subject. What do others think? --John 05:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

    (discussion copied from my talk page)

    [edit] Concorde is 'she'

    [6] WolfKeeper 19:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

    [7]WolfKeeper 19:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

    BA's usage doesn't have to determine ours, however. --John 19:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
    Fleet air arm: [8]WolfKeeper 19:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
    You're wrong. Please change it back.WolfKeeper 19:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
    Neither BA nor the FAA determines our use in Wikipedia though. Unfortunately I am damned if I can find the MoS where (I believe) it points out that ships (but not planes) are called 'she' on Wikipedia. What we cannot have is what we had before I made my edits, with about 75% 'it' and 25% 'she'. That looks poor. My preference is for 'it', but having a mixture of both is unacceptable.
    Do you mind if I copy this to Talk:Concorde? Somebody there is likely to know. --John 05:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

    (end discussion copied from my talk page)

    [edit] ... or 'it' ...

    We only use 'she' to describe individual examples, where we wish to imply some emotional connotation - "She's a beauty", "She's caused me nothing but trouble", "I served on her for two years", etc. In the dialect of my part of South Worcestershire (England), machines like these are customarily referred to as 'he', even cows: a farmer may say of a favoured cow, 'he's a good milker'. All this is just casual usage. Strict English grammar reserves 'he' and 'she' for male and female animals, and for nothing else. The term 'it' is correct in all other circumstances.

    This contrasts with our very unusual use of 'Concorde' as opposed to 'the Concorde' or 'a Concorde', where we have elevated 'Concorde' to a familiar name like 'Alice' or 'Bob'.

    I have here the book Concorde The Inside Story written by Brian Trubshaw, the B.Ae Concorde test pilot and a man very emotionally involved with Concorde. He refers to prototype 002, which he flew on her first flight, as "her" (Page x). He refers to Concorde as a whole as "it" (page xiii).

    HTH -- Steelpillow 13:00, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

    This seems like a reasonable summary of usage. However, while it may well be appropriate for Trubshaw to refer to a particular Concorde aircraft as 'her' and the programme as a whole as 'it', it does not follow in my opinion that Wikipedia needs to follow that usage. --John 20:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
    I think the confusion is that because of the way people (particularly the English and French) see Concorde with some emotional attachment (and pride) it is also talked about as if their was only one Concorde. It would not seem wrong to call a Concorde she because in the mind of most people it is a singular artifact. This agrees with the statement above We only use 'she' to describe individual examples, where we wish to imply some emotional connotation MilborneOne 21:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
    Perhaps we need to take this to a more central forum to generate a wider consensus. I am fairly certain that here on Wikipedia the convention is to use 'she' for ships and 'it' for aircraft, but I cannot find where I got that from. --John 22:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
    Dont have a problem with it for aircraft but remember that Concorde is not an aircraft it is a friend! MilborneOne 22:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
    There are at least 3 conventions stated in the article that certain editors have placed that the wish others to follow:
    1. British spelling, such as tyre
    2. Absence of the article
    3. Use of she rather than it

    The spelling onvention is totally correct, and supported by both Wikipedia guidelines and multiple external sources. The other two apear to be totally unsupported by the reliable sources and verifiability Wikipedia is built on.- BillCJ 00:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

    I'm sorry, but that's completely wrong; we have lots and lots and lots of British authored references all of which have the absence of the article (including the usage on the BBC website), and many of them are referenced from here. Another example I have here 'Backroom boys' by Francis Spufford, he has simply 'Concorde' about four times every page, and *never* has 'the Concorde'.WolfKeeper 06:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    Although I know nothing about the French language, it would not surprise me if these last two conventions have their root in grammar rules. However, this is the English-language Wikipedia, and we should follow English grammar rules of the appropriate region. Even ship articles tend use it to a large degree, even though she is permissible in certain circumstances. Given the way certain non-Americans fioght against the PROPER use of US spelling or grammer on AMerican-related articles, I have no doubt that if this were a US plane, such deviations would NOT be permitted, say, in the article on SR-71, as she has a status in the US similar to that of THE Concorde (military/civil aside) in France and Britain.- BillCJ 00:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    Shrugs, that's pure speculation on your part, and hence doesn't support your claim one way or another; and even if it did, it's still irrelevant if other parts of the wikipedia aren't following the wikipedia's guidelines. And actually the fact that you have to speculate suggests that you have nothing to back you up.WolfKeeper 06:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

    I do think it appropriate to re-visit the concensus at this time, and I will abide by whatever is decided. - BillCJ 00:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

    The first two were beaten to death and the more we looked into it, the clearer the evidence became, the she/it is only marginally more arguable, but I have added it, because the convention used by the only British owners of Concorde is entirely self-evident.WolfKeeper 06:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    I think we can find evidence that the male owners of high-performance cars call them "she", but I wouldn't recommend changing the pronouns in the articles either. I also don't think that pilots calling their aircraft "she" is unique to the Concorde. Why are we making gramatical exeptions here? This is an encyclopedia, not a love letter to a very-exceptional aircraft! I have no problem, however, adding a sourced item to the article in an appropriate place noting that the British owners called it "she". - BillCJ 06:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    We have WP:RS evidence in the form of the published usage on websites and in books that have been subject to editorial control that this is the correct usage for this particular aircraft.WolfKeeper 07:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    Also check out this video: [9]. That's Raymond Baxter referring to Concorde as her as she took off for the first time, and very nearly every mention is simply 'Concorde', not 'the Concorde'. They also refer to Concorde as 'She bought cities together' which is clearly talking about all Concorde.WolfKeeper 07:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    I also have books subject to editorial control that user the pronoun "it", and uses "the" intermittently. I'm not arguing that your usage is not used, just that it's not appropriate for an objective encyclopedia. Oh, and I assume he didn't actually say "bought", or are we now going to have to start using that spelling here too? ;) (Totally in jest!) - BillCJ 08:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    I'm sure you can find cases where people have used 'the Concorde' in some places or throughout, but the better the source is on Concorde the more likely they are to use simply 'Concorde', and to refer to the aircraft as 'she'. I think the wikipedia is supposed to accurately reflect a subject, not impose its own standards on it, for example, with weights and measures it's really bad form to change a measurement from ft to metres if the original was in ft (although we do permit conversions to be added for convenience). The other thing is that, ultimately, English follows usage, not the other way around, and this really does appear to be the usage.WolfKeeper 08:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    I pretty much agree with WolfKeeper on all of this. If BillCJ has references which back up the opposite case, let's see them so we can balance them against the references we have provided. I do think the burden is on BillCJ to provide a convincing case, and not just the speculation and unreferenced allegations we have at the moment. -- Steelpillow 10:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    However, on visiting the recent history, I see that WolfKeeper has changed many general references to Concorde-as-a-whole from 'it' to 'she'. I do disagree here - 'she' should be reserved only for references to individual aircraft (and even then there may be times when it is not appropriate). I believe that the references provided above by WolfKeeper and myself both back this up. -- Steelpillow 10:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    You would expect that the collective would not be 'she' however the references do actually seem to support that usage, and particularly notably all the BA stuff I've found does.WolfKeeper 12:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    The discussion on terminology was part of an earlier archived section. A consensus was arrived that corresponded to usage determined in the United Kingdom and France, the primary operators of the type. In brief, the aircraft is referred to as "Concorde" and identified in the ship/aircraft convention as "she" both of which are unconventional but accepted protocols as Concorde represents a significant iconic example. BTW, using the same logic that Steelpillow has employed, it is contingent on him to FIRST provide corroboration for the campaign he has launched to recategorise Concorde as "tailless" (along with numerous other aircraft which have been the source of contention in the individual articles as well as the project group's discussion page). Bzuk 10:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC).
    Fair enough. As I said somewhere before, I have to get my books out of storage. It may take a few days.... P.S. I'm not advocating 're'categorising Concorde and the others, just adding an extra category. -- Steelpillow 22:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] "Concorde" vs. "the Concorde". A humble suggestion

    As a Brit, the use of just "Concorde" is totally natural to me. However, I can understand how it would look very odd to other users of the English language. While this article may be about a British (and French) aircraft, it doesn't mean that this article is any more British than any other and imposing strict provincial customs to the language we use seems rather over-zealous and exclusive. My suggestion is this. After the Table of Contents have an Etymology section on the usage of the word Concorde and why the "the" is missing. This would explain a lot of things to our friends across the Atlantic and elsewhere while retaining the correct customary usage of the word. It would be common courtesy, something that sometimes seems to be lacking in these discussion. AJKGordon 23:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

    • A Etymology section would be a good addition. Although, I'd prefer it near the bottom of the article. -Fnlayson 23:09, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    The custom seems to be for it to appear at the beginning of the article. It would also help readers to accept the odd omission of "the" before they read the rest and are tempted to edit it back in. AJKGordon 23:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm aware that Etymology sections are typically at the top. However this is not going to explain the origin of "Concorde". I guess putting it at the top would be helpful and not look too out of place. A couple sentences at the bottom of the Lead might be enough. -Fnlayson 23:26, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    • This is a very reasonable suggestion and I would support its inclusion as an introductory section because this is where readers first start to read the article. As this explanation of the use of "Concorde" is only found in the invisible tag, readers presently do not have a ready reference to the etymology and use of the aircraft name. FWIW Bzuk 23:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC).
    I like the idea, but it might be a bit clumsy, impact readability. Come to think of it, it's a bit surprising there isn't a tag to warn people that a particular article is written in colloquial english, and perhaps a small section at the end to explain the conventions used.WolfKeeper 23:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
    Image:Emblem-important.svg this article of iconic importance uses British English

    I agree with Bzuk, AJKGordon’s proposal is a fine one. However, I believe that rather than have an etymology in the introduction, that there be single sentence in the intro (possibly parenthetical) noting the novel convention for referring to [the] Concorde. Any exposition on its etymological evolution should be reserved for the main body (and that could very well be at the bottom of the article – or anywhere else that makes good and fitting sense).

    As for the use of “she” vs. “it”, the dominant usage should certainly be “it” (although more creative ways to get around heavy repetition of “it” would be commendable). Wikipedia is, after all, an encyclopedia, which calls for a formal, not colloquial, style. Although I don’t think complete neutering is absolutely necessary, it is probably best restricted to quotations. While individual aircraft do often get called “she” in the West, this is not as ingrained as with nautical usage – and it should be kept in mind that the masculine pronoun is used for ships in some cultures (e.g., Russian). Askari Mark (Talk) 01:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

    That would sort of be OR- the references use she, and not just for the individual aircraft, they talk about collective Concordes as she.WolfKeeper 01:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
    Mark makes very valid points and I have not seen a collective "she" ever, although I will bow to proper referencing on that point. I also agree with others that a simple explanation in the first section explaining the derivation or etymology of terminology can be the simplest solution. The tag looks positively obtrusive (read:UGGGly) and does not lend to an easy solution to the issue. This is an iconic aircraft that has an unconventional nomenclature, the tag should be left for some other issue. FWIW Bzuk 02:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC).
    Since the "she" usage is rather occasional, I'm not clear how it would be awkward. In any case, I did not suggest changing quotes but rather keeping them as written – that's straight from the MOS. I've never seen a collective "she" either and it would be unnatural English given that it is a singular pronoun. The reason I don't think "100% neutering" is absolutely necessary outside of quotes is that there might be a textual construction following the quoted material where the "she" reference makes perfect sense. My point was that it should be used sparingly, if at all. Askari Mark (Talk) 03:23, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
    I agree with Bill and Mark here. It is not about using UK spelling, or even UK English, it is about balancing our stylistic clarity as an encyclopedia against using correct terminology for the subject. To make an analogy, I am sure we could find a video of Jeremy Clarkson referring to a particular car as 'she'; but we could not extrapolate from that to changing that car's article to use 'she'. We might, however, present a brief terminology section if it can be referenced, to point out that certain sources use 'she' to describe this aircraft. The article itself, I maintain, should use 'it'. --John 05:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
    I still say, as I said in the previous section, it comes down to reliable sources. Jeremy Clarkson wouldn't really be a reliable source, whereas British Airways and the video of Raymond Baxter referring to Concorde as 'she' (AFAIK working for the BBC when he did it) probably does count as reliable to some degree. I haven't got hold of any of the books written by pilots lately to check what they wrote,[1] but they would also be reliable for this I suppose (having been published, and presumably having gone through an editorial process).WolfKeeper 06:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
    The other way to go would just be to replace all the her's and she with Concorde, but it would be a bit repetitive, I'm not at all keen.WolfKeeper 06:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

    OK, there's a danger that this discussion will revert back to the style of previous ones where we'll get hung up on the personal preferences of editors for "she" or "it". So can we please concentrate on one thing at a time. (I will state from the outset that I am a fairly neutral observer in all of this with no expertise on the subject, only interest.)

    Firstly, the question of why the word Concorde takes no article. It seems there is general consensus that this needs explaining due to the obvious jarring to non-Brit or non-Commonwealth English speakers. It should be covered in some form at the beginning of the article - either in a brief sentence or two in the introduction or in an etymology section directly after the ToC. Would somebody like to do this please? (I would if I knew the reasons why but I don't!) I would suggest something like:

    • It has become customary in British English that the word Concorde does not take the definite or indefinite article when describing the aircraft as a class. "I flew on Concorde" or "Concorde flies at Mach 2" rather than "I flew on a Concorde" or "The Concorde flies at Mach 2" as would be common with other aircraft types. This is due to blah blah blah and is similar to the use of the word example. (This link might be useful). As the aircraft is British-French, this convention is used in the article."

    Secondly, the use of "she" rather than "it". It seems that use of the word "she" for Concorde is not general convention but rather the preference of people closely associated with the aircraft such as pilots or marketing people at BA. Reading through this article from the BBC, they use "it". Even Bannister uses "it" in this BBC site talking about Concorde. As it appears to be a personal preference I suggest we use encyclopaedic language and stick with "it". If, however, we decide to use "she" then this should be explained in an etymology section along with the lack of an article and even perhaps why there is an "e" on the end of the word! AJKGordon 08:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

    No he does use 'her' in the visor description; although he also talks about 'its movable nose and visor system', arguably the it is the system (probably not but I think he messed it up) but he also says: 'streamlining Concorde to enable 'her to go much faster'. I didn't notice any other references to it or her though anywhere.WolfKeeper —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 22:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
    Yes, you're right - so its 50:50 from BA's chief Concorde pilot and "it" exclusively in the first four latest news articles (1, 2, 3, and 4) listed on the special BBC Concorde site. Seems pretty conclusive that "her" is, while not unusual, a personal preference by some people some of the time and perhaps isn't the language that an encyclopaedia should be using in this article. AJKGordon 10:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
    I still say that Bannister just messed it up, but my case is that the Airline, the manufacturers, the pilots, and the museums all refer to Concorde predominately as her.
    I mean, check out this classic movie by the manufacturers BAC, SNECMA etc. etc., called 'She Flies'!!![10], they use 'she' or 'her' throughout; and even the title is significant, they didn't have to call it that!WolfKeeper 12:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
    I mean, if they're not a reliable source about terminology about their own plane, who on Earth is?WolfKeeper 12:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Reliable sources on English grammar usage are generally English grammar refernces and style manuals, not corporate and personal communications. English grammar refernces and style manuals what Wikipedia tries to follow, as it uses formal, not colloquial ussage. If a general British English grammar guide can be cited, not one industry-related, then you would have a much stronger case here. - BillCJ 16:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
    As far as I can tell, the whole line of discussion is moot as the archived consensus-driven decision is already made- "Concorde" is the prescribed terminology and "she" used to refer to the type (although used infrequently). The orginal request was for the inclusion of a disclaimer note and that should be the topic of the continuing discourse. I do detect a bit of manners creep, and would suggest that all parties remember to keep "cool," and not in the global warming sense... [:¬∆ FWIW Bzuk 12:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC).
    We're reviewing the consensus here, BillZ. That's an acceptable alternative to an ongoing edit war, a la the F-22/Typhoon war. - BillCJ 16:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
    Manners creep? Can't see it myself. Looks pretty cool to me. But yes, the suggestion was originally about putting in a line or two about the zero article. Seems that the consensus is that there should be just that nobody's volunteered yet!
    Beautiful video, Wolfkeeper, thank you! But it's hardly contemporary and, as BillCJ says, it's commercial so probably not as reliable a source as, say, the BBC which in my very limited research prefers to use "it" today. And without wishing to be rude, your assertion that "Bannister just messed it up" is just that - an assertion :) AJKGordon 17:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

    How about floating the explanation in a box under the introductory picture, something like this:

    Concorde is possibly unique in aviation, for the familiar use of its name in phrases such as "I flew on Concorde" or "Concorde flies at Mach 2" rather than "I flew on a Concorde" or "The Concorde flies at Mach 2" as would be common with other aircraft types. The custom was never formally endorsed, and seems to have grown up spontaneously due to the iconic nature of the aeroplane to the British people. As the aircraft is British-French, this convention is used in the article.

    TOC goes here

    -- Steelpillow 21:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

    Here is more of what I was thinking we could use:
    The Aérospatiale-BAC Concorde is an iconic aircraft which has acquired a unique nomenclature. In common useage, the type is known as "Concorde" and this Anglo/French convention is used throughout the article. See:<|ref> British Airways tribute to Concorde and BBC concorde page<|/ref> Another variant, but I would not endorse the "floating" window example for many reasons, chiefly, it is wordy and obtrusive. FWIW Bzuk 22:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC).
    Looks good, Bzuk. You want to put it in? AJKGordon 08:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
    May I just clarify that it is correct to use a construction such as "The Concorde supersonic aircraft....". In this case the "The" corresponds with "aircraft" and "Concorde" and "supersonic" are qualifying adjectives. GraemeLeggett 11:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
    We do already have some text on this in article under Concorde#Public perception (for want of a better place to put it.)WolfKeeper 16:02, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
    But it really hasn’t “acquired a unique nomenclature” – it’s simply a convention of British English, right? How about a simple parenthetical note like “(This article follows the usage of British English, which simply uses “Concorde” without a preceding article like “a” or “the”.)” Askari Mark (Talk) 17:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
    It is not the usual convention for aircraft. That is the whole point of the discussion. --- Steelpillow —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 18:53, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
    I understand that, but I frankly believe this is all making a mountain out of a molehill. All this talk of "iconic" and "etymology sections" and what-not is rather beside the point IMHO. The only reason for all of this should be to head off American editors who are ignorant of British conventions from constantly (re)adding the articles; my suggested sentence covers that. Non-editor American readers might think the "missing" definite or indefinite article odd, but it wouldn't make it unintelligible for them (the way slang can). Askari Mark (Talk) 23:43, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
    With respect, Askari Mark, I think you're missing several points. Firstly, it is already a mountain out of a molehill. I'm just trying to find a simple and effective way of describing what is an unusual form of grammar regarding an iconic aircraft but only used by some English speakers. As such it is worthy of our limited attention. Secondly, while your sentence is great, I don't believe it goes far enough in explaining why it is only Concorde that uses this nomenclature nor will it dissuade non-Brits from editing the article back in if they simply feel it's wrong. While the inclusion or absence of the article is of little real important in the grand scheme of things, it is illustrative of how Concorde is viewed in the UK and its iconic status there and therefore deserves something a little less perfunctory.
    But, as you hinted, perhaps enough talk and waffle. I'll give it a shot. :) AJKGordon 07:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
    Uh, the lead should state what Concorde is before getting into usage of 'she' and omission of 'the'. Adding another sentence for that to what is already there will be fine, imo. -Fnlayson 17:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
    Yes, of course. AJKGordon 19:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
    These are two spearate issues, though. Omission of 'the' I am fine with. Use of 'she' I am less keen on. As an encyclopedia article about an aeroplane (however 'iconic'), I believe we should use 'it', except of course in direct quotes. --John 19:55, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

    OK, for this sentence in the Lead:

    In common usage in the United Kingdom, the type is known as "Concorde" rather than "the Concorde" or "a Concorde".

    the references BBC Concorde page and British Airways tribute are both general pages on Concorde. Anybody know the specific pages on those sites to cover the no article usage? A search on British Airways' site find the phrase "the Concorde" several times and none seem to support the sentence above. Thanks. -Fnlayson (talk) 20:13, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

    Those usages are relatively uncommon there, and don't seem to follow any pattern, although one thing is that it's evidently perfectly OK to say 'the Concorde SST' or 'the Concorde's landing lights', and quite frankly sometimes people seem to just mess it up, but mostly not. I bet the BBC have a written guideline about it though, if somebody could check that would be helpful. Note also that it's a 'common usage' not an absolute hard rule carved in stone.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 20:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
    • I looked and couldn't find a specific BA page on for this. The phrase "the Concorde" was/is the best search criteria I have. More specific reference links are needed to be of help... -Fnlayson (talk) 01:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
    BA themselves could be inconsistent on this issue. I uploaded the menu from my Concorde flight in 2003 as part of my trip report, and it's interesting that on the first page (headed "The Ultimate Experience") the menu says "the Concorde" but on the third page (headed "Wine List") the menu says "Concorde." Here's the link; to view a page, click on it, and then use the back button to return to the thumbnails. BA001 menu, 7 September 2003 1995hoo (talk) 22:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Current state re. above

    I feel I should get closure on this as I started the above discussion. Various editors have made changes that describe the lack of the article (i.e. no "the") and use "it" rather than "she". To my eyes this seems to work well. Any dissent or are we all happy? ᴀᴊᴋɢᴏʀᴅᴏɴ«» 10:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

    Just stumbled across this. I'm happy with whatever other encyclopedias use, but AFAIC references to gender are emotive and as such, have no place in an encyclopedia. As for 'the', whatever is the cultural norm in the UK. Daytona2 12:48, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Error - needs urgent correction or clarification

    >>Because of Concorde's visit in 1985, Continental Airlines added Cleveland-London service in 1999 and Cleveland-Paris in 2008<< 2008 ? Gregpalmerx 09:00, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

    I just needs a citation. It's not suggesting that Continental introduced a Concorde service if that's how you read it... Perhaps a slight tweak of the text. ᴀᴊᴋɢᴏʀᴅᴏɴ«» 18:13, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
    • The 2008 date looks suspicious. Both years are well after 1985 also. -Fnlayson 19:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
    I think I've removed that before as vandalism, but I didn't check the edit history to be sure. Just remove it as vandalism this time, as it is definetely suspicious and dubious. - BillCJ 19:56, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Thanks. I just removed it. Very dubious. -Fnlayson 20:00, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
    I noticed that before, but I googled it, it actually seemed legitimate(!)WolfKeeper 05:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Yea, it didn't seem unreasonable at first either. -Fnlayson 05:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
    Just an example of a poorly written edit; I don't think it was vandalism. FWIW Bzuk 08:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC).
    I disagree, but without a verifiable source, we couldn't use it anyway. Anyway, I sincerely doubt anyone could prove that a Concorde visit caused a direct route to open 23 years later!! I would bet there are other US locations with recently-opened direct routes to London or Paris that never had a visit by THE Concorde. - BillCJ 09:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
    I agree that the statement was nebulous and unattributed so that was why I classified it as "bad writing" but not necessarily "vandalism." Nevertheless, the deletion of the submission is fine as it was also mainly trivial in retrospect. FWIW Bzuk 09:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC) .


    [edit] Tyre versus tire

    I have added both and changed the phrasing a bit. Many people do not know what a tyre is so I added tired in parenthesis beside it for clarification. I also added structural to the shockwave as it was a structural shockewave that caused the damage. There are other types of shockwaves such as sound, etc.. I would also like to remind people that Concorde was French as much as it was British. That isn't relevant to the English version of the article as there is a French version, but it along with the lack of a pointer to spelling guidelines for British versus other English spellings is causing trouble here. Could somebody please find the guideline referring to British spelling about British things and link it here so as to defuse some of this. Also, please leave tire alone, they should both be there for clarification since tyre is again, so unknown outside of GB by normal people. Please talk instead of reverting also, I originally reverted because I thought the comment ( ) added was visible in the article and was a mistake. I was busy rewriting the phrases to add back tyre with tire when it was reverted which was OK at first since I was rewriting but then reverted again which is not appropriate IMO. In fact, I see that they reverted again as I am trying to write this which is totally wrong. I believe a call should be made for an administrator to help make the article work for everybody. UB65 (talk) 08:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

    Uh huh. Please read Wikipedia:Mos#Strong_national_ties_to_a_topic and stop making these kinds of changes. If you really feel strongly that people won't know what a tyre is, adding a wikilink to tire might be acceptable, but the text in the article is British English and since we're following MOS so it's going to stay that way.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 08:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    Be a bit less sarcastic please and actually read what I wrote before sounding off. BillJC already fixed it. UB65 (talk) 08:39, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    I really don't appreciate you aggravating this situation User:Wolfkeeper. What you wrote on my personal talk page was inappropriate. UB65 (talk) 09:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    I apologise for absolute nothing, and I would do the same again, every time. I really don't appreciate you vandalising the article in this way. BillCJ's being way too easy on you, you repeatedly reverted without an edit summary, you failed to respond on the talk page, you removed comments in the article saying that you shouldn't make the changes you did, you insisted on adding American spelling that was inappropriate, I started off with a helpful comment on your talk page, which you ignored... I could go on.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 09:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    I did not vandalize this page and you are aggravating the situation. It has been solved. I was busy trying to write on this article's talk page and did not see your comments on my personal talk page until later. You are not helping this situation at all. You also are making unfounded accusations. Please stop.
    I just don't buy this in any way.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 09:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    Please also read: Wikipedia:Mos#Opportunities_for_commonality as this is what I was trying to do. UB65 (talk) 09:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    No, no you weren't, and any trivial look at your edits shows this.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 09:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    These accusations are not true, I am not a vandal and I have tried to explain what I was trying to do. Please stop making accusations and such. Please read Wikipedia:No personal attacks, and Wikipedia:Assume good faith. UB65 (talk) 10:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    I apologize for being contentious in my edit summary. I honestly thought "tyre" was wiki-linked elsewehre in the article, but upon checking, I saw that it wasn't. I'm glad to see that the current wikilink to "tyre" to the tire page is acceptable.- BillCJ (talk) 08:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    I apologize too Bill. I thought I was being ganged up on and I was just trying to fix the problem. I wish I had thought of your solution myself as it would have averted all of this. UB65 (talk) 09:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    LOL, you might find that referring to English speakers outside the UK as "normal people" might raise a few hackles! AJKGORDON«» 12:11, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
    I am sure this is NOT the place to discuss it but why is anyone using a British spelling for anything on http://en.wikipedia.org/ which is an American web site that uses American English. If a few British users can not put up with American spellings then those British users should request a separate sub-domain such as http://uk.wikipedia.com/. Please feel free to flame me on my user talk page or enlighten me as to where I should be discussing this. Donkdonk (talk) 22:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
    This is an extract from the template concerning such matters: "...you changed one or more words from one international variety of English to another. Because Wikipedia has readers from all over the world, our policy is to respect national varieties of English in Wikipedia articles. For subjects exclusively related to Britain (for example, a famous British person), use British English. For something related to the United States in the same way, use American English. For something related to other English-speaking countries, such as Canada, Australia, or New Zealand, use the appropriate variety of English used there. If it is an international topic, use the same form of English the original author used. In view of that, please don't change articles from one version of English to the other, even if you don't normally use the version the article is written in. Respect other people's versions of English. They in turn should respect yours. Other general guidelines on how Wikipedia articles are written can be found in the Wikipedia:Manual of Style." ... richi (hello) 23:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Transatlantic routing

    This is something that I know but can't source online, except through inference from statements in non-reputable forums. Concorde's LHR-JFK routing was not the usual Great Circle passing near Iceland and Greenland: the faster route from Heathrow was out to the Bristol Channel, then accelerating through Mach 1 somewhere south of Ireland, to avoid sonic boom over land. I've seen the maps and lived in Reading where Concorde was the only flight to pass over, all other transatlantic traffic having turned north, so I've pretty sure of my ground.

    Please can anyone find a reference for this and add it? We already have the routing south of Florida on a much less travelled (Mexico city) route, and it's another interesting implication of Concorde's unusual characteristics. TrulyBlue (talk) 09:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

    Try searching the forum at ConcordeSST.com. I believe the poster named Project Oxcart has posted a map showing the SST tracks (although it may have been under his prior username Bone Driver). I should note that he tends to make a lot of typos, but his information is pretty accurate. 1995hoo (talk) 14:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
    Thanks, 1955hoo. I've had a poke around that site with no success - again, one can see many passing references to the Bristol Channel route, but nothing directly on why it was used. I'll keep searching. It may, ultimately, come to picking up one of those old-fashioned book things, I guess. TrulyBlue (talk) 14:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Deaths per million flights?

    Currently the article says (uncited) that after the Paris accident Concorde's record was '12.5 deaths per million flights'. That implies that it had flown about 8 million flights, which is impossible (e.g. 8 flights a day for 2700 years. Should it be "... per million passenger flights" (dividing by the number of passengers per flight, gives say, 100 passengers on 8 flights a day for 27 years, which sounds roughly right to me.) Does 'per million flights' in this context usually mean per million passenger flights? To this lay reader it implies simply the number of times it made a trip. TrulyBlue (talk) 19:25, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

    I also saw this independently. With 14 aircraft each flying a daily roundtrip, that's 28 trips per day. Pe year, that 10,000 flights; per decade, 100,000.

    Therefore, over 25 or so years, Concorde flew around 250,000 flights. 125 people died. Therefore, the death rate is around 500 people per million flights. I have edited the article to match this easily verified fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jangles1 (talk • contribs) 08:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


    Please see http://airsafe.com/journal/issue14.htm as it contains an explanation for the 12.5/million rating. UB65 (talk) 09:05, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

    Thanks, I have altered the Wiki article to reflect "12.5 fatal EVENTS per million flights." Of course, the 12.5 events would involve over 1,000 human deaths. I find it to be an odd safety metric, but at least we have a somewhat reasonable conclusion now. The 12.5 "deaths" per million figure was a mis-application of the cited source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jangles1 (talk • contribs) 11:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Courier use during cold war?

    I vaguely remember reading that during certain episodes of the cold war Concorde was used as a high-speed courier service when people and documents had to travel between Washington and London as fast as possible, and that, when this was done, the White House or 10 Downing St. would give orders to allow supersonic flight over land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.88.112 (talk) 07:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

    Sounds a bit like fiction from a good novel - no reason why the normal British Airways scheduled tranatlantic service could not have been used and the use of supersonic flight over land would not achieved anything as most of the flight was over water where supersonic flight was allowed. If it really was that important the military would have resources of their own to use. MilborneOne (talk) 09:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Was Carol Vendi elected to Congress?

    In the section titled "Environmental impact" a lady by the name of "Carol Vendi" is mentioned as helping fuel the anti-noise pollution movement in the United States with regards to Concorde and, as a result, being elected to the US Congress.

    However, a search of the internet for "Carol Vendi" yields that the only references to this person happen to be in this article (or copies of it). Furthermore, no trace of her was found when her name was searched for her at the websites for the US House of Representatives, the US Senate, and the US Government's Congressional Biographical Directory which has a biography for every US Congress member since 1774.

    Therefore, given the apparent non-existence of Ms. Vendi I took the liberty of removing references to her altogether. If the name was misspelt then perhaps somebody can reinsert the correct name.

    Cheers,

    André Sihera (talk) 18:51, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] The "le" in "le Concorde"

    The French grammar element "le", the definite article, is used simply to distinguish a proper name from a common noun (typically countable) of the same spelling. This occurs in a good number of proper names for geographic locations, artistic works, historical events, and vehicle names (particularly boats or aeroplanes, of which Concorde is just one).

    A book entitled "Le Bon Usage: Grammaire Française" (tran. "Good Usage: French Grammar") Maurice Grevisse, 13th Edition, p722 (§465) cites that the practice of using "le" specifically with boat and aircraft names was first suggested by two French government ministers (François Piètri, Military Navy, 13 August 1954, and Raymond Schmittlein, Merchant Navy, 22 March 1955) who both proposed independently that the names of boat classes (e.g. frigates, destroyers, etc.) be prefixed with the definite article "le" as part of their name. This practice for boats was informally extended to aeroplanes more through lay usage than through governmental backing and this concept is extended to Concorde as it is viewed as an aircraft class as opposed to a single, unique design.

    Hence, in French, "le Concorde" is used to differentiate the aircraft class proper name from "(une) concorde" (with or without the indefinite article, "une", and a small "c") which refers to a political agreement or peace arrangement between two parties. In this case the definite article "le" has no other special or singular significance other than that originally assigned to it within French grammar (e.g. it does not mean that there is "only one" Concorde).

    Having found a french dictionary explanation of the usage of "le" in French proper names that specifically cites "le Concorde", I translated the salient points and updated the article accordingly. I also added, as a reference, a link to the original French dictionary explanation as I couldn't find an English reference.

    Cheers,

    André Sihera (talk) 19:25, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] External Links

    Just removed a lot of the external links as they do not appear to add any value. Apology if I have removed anything useful but the sample I looked at did not meet the criteria of WP:EL particular as it was looking like a link farm. External Links should add value to the article no just a long list of concorde connected links. MilborneOne (talk) 19:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Minor error in Notes

    Note [25] refers to the "Museum of Air and Space, Le Bourget, France". It should read "British prototype G-BSST (002), Fleet Air Arm Museum, Yeovilton, UK" because that's the photo it's linked to.

    The photo is entrely relevant to the main text (about the visor), it's simply the Note that refers to the wrong museum.

    I could not see how to edit this. HiTek213 (talk) 13:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

    That is fixed now. Added the page the image comes from too. -Fnlayson (talk) 14:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)