Talk:Common Travel Area

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Contents

[edit] Second World War

I think the history section needs a bit of info on the restrictions that were imposed during the 2nd world war. Any help out there? Seabhcán 22:33, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Legal Status

It is my understanding that the Common Travel Area is formally defined in the Immigration Act 1971 of the United Kingdom - i will need to confirm. Djegan 18:34, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually there is a legal basis for theCTA - there have been a number of orders in council setting out the conditions for entry to/from other members of the CTA> Can't be bothered to look them up right now but I can do this later.

83.94.183.28 22:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC) 18 April 06

[edit] Channel Islanders/Manxmen

Channel Islanders and Manxmen are full British citizens. It is true that they do not get EEA free movement privileges unless they have or acquire some connection with the UK itself, through descent or residence.

However, the rights of British citizens to live in the Republic of Ireland predate the accession to the then EEC of the UK and Ireland, and hence I'd suggest that Channel Islanders and Manxmen *are* entitled to live in Ireland. Is there any way to confirm this one way or another?

If this is the case it's likely a Channel Islander or Manxman living in the Republic of Ireland would need to become a naturalised Irish citizen in order to access free movement rights elsewhere in the EEA. JAJ 01:29, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Overseas Born Citizens

Is there any reference to support this comment?

"Technically, the zone also only applies to citizens born in Ireland or the UK. Persons who have aquired citizenship but were born elsewhere still have to carry a passport. The enforceability, and even constitutionality, of this aspect of the zone is questionable."

JAJ 02:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

No because its not correct. 83.94.183.28 22:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It's now removed. JAJ 05:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Irish border passport checks

Is there a verifiable source anywhere as to the existence of checks on buses and trains? I've never known anyone to be checked when travelling overland.

I have actually seen the Irish Immigration officers come on the Enterprise Belfast -Dublin train at Dundalk and question 2 african guys about their visas to enter the "state" (Irish republic ) this was in 2001 ...

Yep I agree was only in Dublin Last week and on the way there got stopped (we were on a Bus ) by the Garda (Irish Police ) and they got on to make sure that any Non Irish/British Citizens were not trying to get into the Republic illegally

Considering Irish citizens and British subjects don't need a passport to cross the border, how do they determine who is a potential illegal immigrant? Appearances? zoney ♣ talk 00:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
They could ask for ID card from British or Irish people, or any other paper showing they are registred with the authorities. -- 194.17.253.121 11:27, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
If you are not driving (in which case you would have Driver's Licence) you probably wouldn't have any other form of photo ID with you. zoney ♣ talk 19:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
"When travelling between the Republic of Ireland and the UK it is the legal responsibility of the foreign traveller to ensure that their passport and visa is checked at the border. This can present certain difficulties if the traveller arrives to a small airport or port or a crossing point from Northern Ireland which does not have an immigration control point. In this case, the traveller should go to the nearest Garda station."
If you are an EU citizen travelling to another EU country, you normally don't get any entry stamp whatsoever in your passport when you enter any other EU country. Would it still be required to have the passport checked (e.g. at a Garda station)? And how would they be able to tell whether or not you visit the appropriate Garda stations? (Stefan2 20:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC))
Where is the source for this supposed legal requirement? I'm pretty sure travellers have to insure that have valid passports and visas if necessary. Where does it say that they have to have them checked? Caveat lector 17:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

the checking of Passports on the Northern Ireland/Ireland border is very rare but i have seen it now and then you only have to worry if you aint a EU Citizen or from a third world country....or you are a different colour (sad i know) .....


[edit] Voting

"Also, citizens of Ireland and the UK may vote in general elections of either or both countries, although British citizens in Ireland may not vote in presidential elections or referendums unless they become Irish citizens. This is because British citizens do not elect their head of state and vote in referenda only exceptionally, whereas referenda are a regular feature of Irish politics." Is there a source for this being the reason? Surely it's simply because they're not Irish citizens and something as fundamental as choosing the head of state and making changes to the constitution should clearly be reserved for citizens only? Allowing UK citizens to vote in general elections is also a way of avoiding excluding people from NI living in Ireland who only hold British passports... Also, I think it should be stressed that you have to be resident in the other country and on the electoral register. The first sentence makes it sound as though you can just pop over... :-) --Dub8lad1 21:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Your first point is right the reason is more to do with nature of the decisions being made, rather than reciprocity. As was explained by the Minister on the introduction of the ninth amendment:
"The amendment to the Constitution proposed in the Bill does not extend to granting voting rights to non-citizens at Presidential elections and referenda. The import of the advice available following the Supreme Court decision on the Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1983, is that the basic concept of a Constitution is that of a fundamental law given by citizens to themselves. To give non-citizens the right in the Constitution to change the fundamental law enshrined in it would be contrary to this basic concept. To do so would be inappropriate and could constitute an in-built contradiction in the Constitution itself. Similar considerations apply as regards Presidential elections. The right to vote at such an election, which is a special election of the Head of State under the Constitution, is a right appropriately reserved to the people who gave themselves the Constitution.[1]
and your last point is also right: residence should be emphasised. However the reason for granting voting rights to British citizens in Irish general elections is reciprocity and not anything to do with Northern Ireland. Irish citizenship has long been extended to people from Northern Ireland and there was never an issue with their voting rights in the republic. Caveat lector 16:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
On further reflection, I'm not sure why an article on the Common Travel Area should refer to electoral law at all. Caveat lector 23:50, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Good point, it really has nothing to do with it. I've now cautiously removed that paragraph. How's that? It reminds me of a recent discussion I had with some Germans about the fact that new EU members' citizens do not have the right to work in Germany. They insisted it was connected to those countries not being in Schengen. But Ireland and the UK aren't either... I was able to set them straight:)--Dub8lad1 23:22, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Speculation

The provisions of that treaty allow for a common visa and travel area, which, if either the United Kingdom or Ireland (but not both) were to sign, would end the zone.

The paragraphs below shows that this is not going to happen, so as it is speculation not backed up by a source I think the sentence should be removed as its removal would not affect the section. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused by your comment. What "is not going to happen"? The sentence isn't speculation. If either the UK and Ireland were to join Schengen, they would have to impose border and immigration controls to all non-Schengen states. Or in other words, if the Republic joined without the UK we would have to build a rather long fence along the border and perform regular passport checks at crossing points (as this is required by Schengen rules) thus ending the Common Travel Area. It would on the other hand be speculation to say that neither side will never join Schengen. Caveat lector 13:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deportations from Britain

After adding the following sentence to "the Irish in Britain"

This right of deportation has very rarely been used.

Gaimhreadhan writes in his edit summary

If you disagree please cite 3 examples of Irish Citizens being deported from UK since 1962 - I can not find a single case!

I was always under the impression that editors have to provide sources for their own claims, rather than having to find sources to disprove other peoples. I would agree that deportations are (at least since EEC membership) probably rare, but having no source to back this up, I preferred to say nothing. But since you ask, in a footnote of his article Ryan notes that:

'Deportation to Ireland General Policy' memorandum of December 1967 (PRO, HO 344/74). It records that between July 1962 and October 1967, 233 of the 713 Irish nationals who had been the subject of deportation orders had subsequently been detected in Britain.

I think this figures as 710 examples more than you asked for. Caveat lector 11:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I like your recent re-work of the lede, CL.
As I would expect from such a productive and erudite Wikipedian, I can not fault your statement "that editors have to provide sources for their own claims, rather than having to find sources to disprove other peoples", CL. However, I'm sure you appreciate the difficulty of finding (non-existent) actual physical deportations (as opposed to paper orders) from a philosophical point of view.
I'm not physically in a position right now where I can move about to check paper sources, but is the Ryan note that you refer to clear that these are deportation orders served after 1962 or merely cases of re-entrants deported and then detected between 1962 and 1967? Is Ryan using "Britain" as a synonym of the UK or just of Great Britain? Remember that in the period 1962 to 1967 it would have been very rare to discover an Irish citizen that could not fairly quickly claim to also be British by virtue of patriality and descent! Many Irish citizens served with deportation papers simply and rapidly applied for a British passport during that period (grin).
Please feel free to delete my edit if you are sure that there have been more than three successful actual physical deportations after 1962...Gaimhreadhan(kiwiexile at DMOZ) • 12:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I can't admit to have checked the paper sources either! Deportation was not possible before 1962 so the cited document could only have referred to orders between 1962 and 1967.

correct Gaimhreadhan

A claim of partiality or descent would fail as all that would have entitled them to would have been British subject status and as such they would still have been subject to immigration control (even with a British passport), by the same act.

Pardon?!? Gaimhreadhan

I would imagine that the number, 713, would probably have been those issued with deportation papers after being convicted of a serious criminal offence. The issuing of such papers is routine in Britain. On the point of forced deportations, a recent House of Lords written statement reveals that:
"Those Irish prisoners whose cases are not considered exceptional, whose sentences have expired and who are currently in custodial detention awaiting deportation will be released over the next week."[2]
Apparently the minister's name is Liam Byrne, it's always nice to have one of your own on the inside -:) The story was also covered by the BBC [3].
It would appear that less people are going to be deported in future, but the reference to "custodial detention awaiting deportation" appears to confirm that forced deportations do take place. The enforceability of such deportations is another matter.
(Btw, flattery will get you nowhere -:), but then again... ) Caveat lector 13:14, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this quote is quite revealing:

"19 Feb 2007 : Column WS54
Since April last year, we have ensured that all nationals from European Economic Area countries who have received custodial sentences in the United Kingdom for two years or more have been considered for deportation. This has led to deportation action being pursued against a number of Irish nationals who have committed criminal offences here.
Following recent discussions with the Irish Government, I am able to confirm that the approach to be taken with Irish nationals will now be as follows.
Irish citizens will be considered for deportation only where a court has recommended deportation in sentencing or where the Secretary of State concludes that, due to the exceptional circumstances of the case, the public interest requires deportation.
In reviewing our approach in this area we have taken into account the close historical, community and political ties between the United Kingdom and Ireland, along with the existence of the Common Travel Area.
Those Irish prisoners whose cases are not considered exceptional, whose sentences have expired and who are currently in custodial detention awaiting deportation will be released over the next week. I have already asked that the necessary arrangements be put in place to ensure that these prisoners receive proper supervision on their release from the Probation Service."

The part about "taken into account the close historical, community and political ties between the United Kingdom and Ireland, along with the existence of the Common Travel Area" is politician speak for the historical pragamatism that recognised it was pointless deporting the Irish and a complete waste of public funds since they would always creep back in again.

I would agree that "the approach to be taken with Irish nationals will now" part implies that the practice was previously different (ie that the irish were deported) but I think that is just spin...Gaimhreadhan • 17:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you on the political speak but the phrase "custodial detention awaiting deportation" is more telling. It means that people are being detained after they completed prison sentances, solely for the reasons of deportation. The bbc article is equally telling.
The whole point of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act was that ertain people who had British nationality could be subject to immigration control in the UK. At the time different legislation applies to aliens. Caveat lector 17:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Let's consider the practical consequences of the legislation:
In 1962, few potential Irish deportees would have been less than 21. That means they must have been born before 1942. Most of their fathers would have been married to their mothers and born before 1922 (unless their children were conceived when the fathers were teenagers). Their fathers were, therefore, entitled to the status of British subject: Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (BS/CUKC) [created by the British Nationality Act 1948] unless they had been naturalised in a foreign state, or had made a Declaration of Alienage. Consequently most of the potential irish deportees could have claimed the same full BS/CUKC by virtue of being the first legitimate generation born overseas - a fact that was common knowledge for both criminals and police...Gaimhreadhan • 17:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
As pointed out in British nationality law and the Republic of Ireland, "for the purpose of the 1948 legislation, the United Kingdom was defined based on its post-1922 borders. Hence, birth in the Republic of Ireland before 1922 was not sufficient in itself to confer UK & Colonies citizenship." In any case I think I have provided more than enough evidence that deportations have taken place and you have absolutely no evidence that the "right of deportation has rarely been used historically". I've deleted it. Caveat lector 13:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Data

Today's Irish Times has an article reporting on a document obtained from the UK Home Office under the Freedom of Information. It states that 50 Irish citizens were deported from Britain in the years 2004-5. [4]

[edit] traveling by plane

If you get on a plane from London to Dublin, are passports checked? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.51.4 (talk • contribs)

From London to Dublin, yes (although if you were born in either Ireland or the UK you can show your driving license). From Dublin to London there is no check. ... Seabhcan 13:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mentions in the press

I think the London Times have been reading this article -:) [5] Blue-Haired Lawyer (formerly Caveat lector) 22:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Future plans

There seems to be some discrepancy between the sources cited here. The (UK) Times story quotes a UK Home Office source as saying that no passport checks would be imposed on Republic of Ireland citizens travelling to Britain, whereas the Irish Times story implies (without naming a source) that a passport would be required for all air or sea journeys within the present Common Travel Area, i.e. anyone travelling by air between two UK airports, by air between two RoI airports, or by sea between Great Britain and Northern Ireland would in future have to present a passport, in addition to those travelling between the UK and the Republic. Clearly only one of these scenarios can be correct. 217.155.20.163 21:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)