Talk:Christopher Marlowe

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Contents

[edit] Marlowe's Religious Views

I think this article might be approaching Marlowe's supposed atheism a little uncritically. If you conflate Marlowe with his characters, then this would perhaps be easy to do, but it is a false presumption. And even if you did say that his character's spoke for him, the last scene in Dr. Faustus makes his supposed atheism even more questionable.

Also, I have a quibble with the use of the term "anti-theist" in the comments on the reccents production. For one, to say that the play it self has anti-religious overtones is again equating a character's views with author's intentended tone. What's more, the term "anti-theist" is completely absurd in the context of Marlowe's age, because there was no such thing as a "theist" to be again. The word "theist" is itself is, I think, a back formation from "atheist", and no one before the 19th or 20th century ever thought of themselves or others with such a term.

Corbmobile 05:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Much Ado About Something

Michael Rubbo, the Australian documentarian working for the Canadian National Film Board, has just completed a film called Much Ado About Something, which posits that Marlowe did not die but fled the country to avoid persecution, and in exile wrote the works of Shakespeare. Sounds preposterous, I know, but the film is quite interesting & provoking anyway; it played at the Toronto Film Festival just after the Sept 11th attacks, and I saw a sneak preview of it a few weeks ago. The entry for it is not yet up on IMDb, but the film has been optioned by both PBS and the BBC, though the A(ustralian)BC has yet to decide on a length they want it cut to. Though it was originally 2 hours long, I saw a 93-minute version, and either PBS or the BBC wanted another 6 minutes cut from it; Rubbo was considering releasing the various cut interviews on a DVD. Look for it on PBS in early 2002; I don't know when it's coming out on the BBC. --Koyaanis Qatsi

Oh, dear. Well,unlike most other "he wrote Shakespeare" entries Marlowe actually wrote plays, which makes him the easiest to dismiss on a personal investigation. (I'm not saying that the movie's not fun, by the way, only that Shakespeare probably wrote most of Shakespeare!)
  1. Read any three Shakespeare history plays
  2. Read Tambulaine, Edward II, and Dido
Then get back to me. They're different authors. You can do the same thing with "Truman Capote really wrote To Kill A Mockingbird for his cousin Harper Lee." Read Other Voices, Other Rooms. Reread To Kill A Mockingbird. Yes, authors develop and change, but there are differences. By the way, this isn't my idea - I had to do it for a course in college! --MichaelTinkler

Yes, the film is quite fun. Your counter-arguments are actually not uncommon, and Rubbo addresses them in his film. People will of course have to decide for themselves whether they're convinced.  :-)

I'm not claiming they're uncomonnon - only that Marlow is the easiest-falsified of the 'he wrote S' entries, since he actually *did* write plays that survive (unlike Bacon or Oxford or whoever else people put forward). I hope he convinces no-one, because I don't want to have to write the entry for 'pseudo-literary criticism' to go with pseudoscience ! ; ) --MichaelTinkler

Well, he does address what you've just said above. Just a disclaimer, I am not convinced--but, as I said, it's an entertaining and provoking film. You should look for it.  :-) --Koyaanis Qatsi

I think it is reasonable to believe that contemporary standards of investigation are easily good enough to show beyond any reasonable doubt that Marlowe did not write Shakespeare's plays. Simple questions of overall style and quality of a work are the easiest for a layperson to see, but patterns of word use (particularly pronoun use) vary widely, and are often characteristic of a particular author. Then there is the question of vocabulary change, there is comparatively little vocabulary change between the plays we attribute to Marlowe, but a move to the Shakespeare plays shows a wide difference in vocabulary. So, on the level of language use alone, it is possible to determine that it is highly unlikely that Marlowe wrote Henry IV, or that Paul of Tarsus wrote the letter to the Hebrews.
And these techniques can be used even when an author is intentionally trying to mimic the work of another author, since such mimicry would require the use of these same tools for linguistic analysis, which is a skill few people have, and which nobody even knew about in Marlowe's day. --Mark Christensen

Yes, Rubbo knew about linguistic patterns too. If I recall correctly, he did have interviews on it that were in the 2 hours version but that got cut between that and the 93 minute one (IIRC, the Beeb wanted it at 93 minutes and PBS optioned it at 87, though I might have that backwards). He spoke to me specifically about the patterns of article usage. I find the whole thing unlikely for the same reason I find most conspiracies unlikely: it assumes a greater level of competence than most people have. :-D But anyway, Rubbo could present his case much better than I can, simply because he is likely a believer and I am not, and also because he spent three years on it in research and production and I spent about 3 hours on it (I saw two showings--neither of them with Q&A from Shakespear scholars, though that would have been a sight for a documentary of its own). --Koyaanis Qatsi


The way I've heard it, the Marlowe theory mentioned above is quite a well-researched one and probably the least far-fetched of the "Who wrote Shakespeare?" theories. The biggest point in its favour is that Marlowe "disappeared" around the time that Shakespeare started to make it big. I'm not saying I agree with it, but it might be worth mentioning in the main Marlowe entry, mightn't it? --Deb

It probably is worth mentioning, but in a sort of "there is controversy over" way. Perhaps one sentence? Anyways, like MichaelTinkler above, I've read three plays by each, and am personally confident that the theory is bunk, although I grant that it is fascinating, intriguing, and theoretically possible. Just not believable for me, once you've read both men. Still, its interesting that most folks, outside of stoddy English professors :), aren't willing to believe that Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare. --Atorpen 06:26 Feb 3, 2003 (UTC)

The film is worthless. You can't deal with complex scholarly issues like this based on a short television documentary. He doesn't even begin to introduce all the problems with the Marlovian authorship theory. Yet people watch films like that, make an ill-judged decision, and then go off crusading against purported blindness of professors who actually spend their live studying shakespeare. --- Tamburlaine —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.118.61.219 (talk • contribs) .

I very much enjoyed discovering the comments about my film, Much Ado About Soething. That doc, made a couple of years ago, explores the idea that Kit marlowe was the hidden hand behind a front man, a theatre professional, William Shakespeare.

I dont say I believe this but I do think it's a stimulating propostion, given the circumstances. It is not a matter of there being proof as yet, just puzzling circumstances. The first is the doubts about Shakespeare which have swirled around the man for 200 years. Many fine brains, Henry James, Freud, Orson Wells and now Mark Rylance, have come to doubt.

Why? Because there just does not seem to be any good fit between the genius of the works, the erudition needed to write them, and the man, Shakepeare, as we know him from the very thin historcial record.

The second circumstance is that Marlowe, exactly Shakespeare's contemporary, was the other great playwrite and poet of the time, and that his works feed seamlessly, both plays and poems, into those of Shakepeare so as to posit some sort of intimate relationship. All the major scholars have remarked this and none can explain the relationship

The third cicumstance is that Marlowe dies young under very mysterions circumstances, or does he? He is killed at the end of a puzzling meeting. Marlowe is at a house in Depford on May 30th, 1593 at a time of great personal danger. He has been arrested by the Privy council on the charge of Athiesm, is out on bail, faces imminet re arrest, and toture.

He goes to the Depford meeting one would assume with his dire situation uppermost in his mind. Secondly, of the other men at the meeting, and especially the one who will apparently stab him, Ingram Fizer, two are intimately connected with Marlowe's patron, Sir Thomas Walsingham.

One has to ask then, given this possible suport, was the death faked, another body put into the unparked grave, so Marlowe could flee into exile? Marlowe has been a spy. He knows that shady world and how people can disappear. Would he not put all this to his own use?

The fourth circumstance now emerges. If Marlowe did survive, and if Shakespeare is such a weak candiate for author, what is the relationship between the two, if any, from 1593 onwards?

It is curious that the name Shakepeare appears in print for the first time just days after Marlowe's suposed death. It is curious that the Shakespearean sonnets speak of exile and friendship lost, and and even hint at Marlowe's death cicumstances. It is curious that so many of the plays are set in Italy and that there is no evdence of Shakespeare ever travelling.

Agreed, as yet its all speculation, there is no smoking gun. But it's a fascinating muystery and don't let anyone talk you out of giving it the once over. As I write, another Shakespeare replacement is being proposed for the first time, the unknown Sir Henry Neville. I have not read the new book, The Truth Will Out, but on the surface, Marlowe rermains a more plausible candidate.

If you want to talk to me in greater detail about my three years on this project, email me at rubbo@aapt.net.au. I will happy to answer if not inundated. Mike Rubbo —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.68.74.239 (talk • contribs) .

Several men with connections to the secret service huddle together all day in a remote house run by a woman with her own links to spies? Surely, as any Le Carre reader would know, this is either a debriefing session, reporting back on some spying mission, or else a session to plan in detail the next mission. Only someone completely lacking real world experience - such as a literary academic - could believe that such a day ended with a murder over a bill. Either Marlowe was murdered by his handlers on instructions from someone much more senior in Elizabeth's police state, or else, no murder took place, and the event was a frame-up to hide something else. (Why else meet in Deptford, if not to allow someone - Marlowe or murderer - an easy escape to Europe by sea?)

It is certainly not unreasonable, given the evidence we have, to conclude that Marlowe did not die that day. In which case, one has to ask what subsequent literature could have been written by him? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.92.218.171 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Walsingham - as Marlowes patron

Thomas Walsingham - if he is the same one that this page links to, could not have been marlowes patron as the section on his death claims, simply because they lived in different centuries.

[edit] Marlowe's sexuality

Does any biographer or even rational person argue that because many of his plays had heterosexual relationships in a predominantly heterosexual culture it would therefore make him heterosexual? Or was that just someone's original research. I suspect the latter because whom ever contributed it had a poor understanding of Marlowe, claiming that Edward II was the only male love theme is all his works, which is just not true. 70.57.82.114 18:17, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Nobody was arguing this. The point is that it is questionable to use Marlowe's writing as biographical evidence at all because you can argue whatever you like. References to Ganymede and admiration of male beauty were commonplaces in Renaissance art, it is begging the question to argue that this proves anything. As for Edward II, the subject matter of a play was often chosen by the acting company that commissioned it; and since the play passed two censors, the Master of the Revels for performance and the Archbishop of Canterbury for publication, clearly no one found it shocking. As for historical evidence of his homosexuality, there is only Baines's accusations, which some might suggest is not evidence at all. The same goes for accusations that he thought Christ and St John were lovers (another commonplace). Francis Mere's "stabbed to death by a bawdy serving man, a rival of his in his lewd love" is contradicted by the coroner's inquest, unless you want to take issue with that. It's also dubious to speak of a "predominantly heterosexual culture" as such terms didn't exist; this was Elizabethan England, not Victorian England. And who were these Cambridge students that wrote about Marlowe? I don't think I've heard of that one. 203.54.180.171 13:17, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Some comments about 70.57.82.114's contributions:

"other independent sources also claim he was...homosexual". What sources? The inaccuracy of the Meres quote is mentioned above, and the Kyd quote isn't an accusation of sodomy, even if Marlowe actually said it (it derives from John 13:23-25). (The Baines quote isn't an accusation of sodomy either, when you think about it.)

"Marlowe died in a quarrel over a religious argument". No he didn't.

"Many of his earliest dramas also explore the theme of male love." Many?

"Hero and Leander, also contains homosexual themes". It certainly contains heterosexual themes. All that the Ganymede references in Dido and Hero and Leander prove is that he was familiar with Greek mythology.

"English boy". Huh?

"Furthermore no accounts of any marriage or female companionship have been forthcoming". Yeah. You couldn't get your enemy hanged for having a girlfriend.

I doubt that 70.57.82.114 would take kindly to anyone trimming some of this argumentum ad nauseam the way he brazenly deleted an argument he disagreed with. As for having "a poor understanding of Marlowe", I suspect he has no interest in Marlowe (or Shakespeare) whatsoever, beyond this.

Finally, a quote:

We know next to nothing about Marlowe. When we speak or write about him, we are really refering to a construct called 'Marlowe'... For whatever reason, writers and critics seem particularly predisposed to pontificate about Marlowe's life, his character, and his artistic intentions, regardless of the exiguity of the documentary evidence on which they base their accounts. Given these circumstances, it is scarcely surprising that researchers' hunches quickly become transmogrified, as a consequence, into hard 'facts'. (J. A. Downie, "Marlowe: facts and fictions", p.13. In J. A. Downie and J. T. Parnell, eds., Constructing Christopher Marlowe, Cambridge 2000. ISBN 052157255X)

144.138.194.17 13:42, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Other students at Cambridge where he studied said of him in journals that "pity it is that wit so ill should dwell, wit lent from heaven, but vices sent from hell." Actually, the verses quoted come from the play The Return from Parnassus, written years after Marlowe's death. Once again this article has become a mine of misinformation. 144.138.194.95 13:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

It comes from:

  • Marlowe was happy in his buskin Muse

Alas, unhappy in his life and end;

Pity it is that wit so ill should dwell,

Wit lent from heaven, but vices sent from hell.

Our theatre hath lost, Pluto hath got,

A tragic penman for a dreary plot.

-- anon. Cambridge student writing about Marlowe in The Return From Parnassus , 1598

Read the sources. Stop adding your opinion - scholars believe he was homosexual when all the evidence is taken into consideration. Kyd and Baines accused him of being a paederast essentially. Upon his death it was contributed to him, though the method was false. The Cambridge students write he was. And two of his major plays explore the theme. Face it you can't discredit it, and you certainly cannot delete anything when citations have been made. 71.32.199.15 06:42, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I've read the sources, thanks. Kyd does not accuse Marlowe of pederasty, nor does the "Cambridge student". So much for your reading of the "evidence". I'll remove what you put back in the article for its inaccuracy and incoherency and the other reasons stated above. The article cites the sources and says that many people believe he was gay (and doesn't argue that he was or wasn't). What more do you want? The article isn't the place to try him; he isn't around to defend himself. 144.138.194.254 13:38, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
One again, I repeat. when all the evidence is taken into consideration. Unless you can cite something that is inaccurate, something specific you have no right to remove material. We must list why some historians think he was homosexual. What you are doing is deleting it. Kyd does not directly accuse Marlowe of pederasty, nor does the "Cambridge student", the article does not say that, what historians believe is that it is an allusion to his pederasty when combined with his plays exploring the theme, even describing anal sex, and the testimony of Baines and the other fellow. 71.32.199.15 06:02, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

You both want the same thing: a balanced treatment of the subject. So I've done it for you, since you both seem incapable. Read what I've done and edit as you will, but please: if you find something incorrect, change it, don't just delete it. And don't add anything unless it's QUOTED ACCURATELY and CLEARLY CITED. The Singing Badger 13:28, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

"if you find something incorrect, change it, don't just delete it". Change something that's incorrect to what, exactly? Only one side here has been deleting things on the grounds that it contradicts their own view. I resent being treated on the same level as 71.32.199.15/70.57.82.114, given his/their inability to get the facts right, as has been demonstrated in the posts above. And we don't both want the same thing. My position (on several aspects of Marlovian biography) is that the evidence is inconclusive or not really evidence at all. He wants to assert (ad nauseam) that a certain view on a certain topic is absolutely true. As for "a balanced treatment of the subject", the subject here is a poet and dramatist. Unless someone wants to suggest that his only claim to fame is that he was a murdered gay atheist spy. I maintain that my edit of the article (13:56, 29 August 2005) contained all the necessary facts (besides adding a lot of other biographical information) and was NPOV. Compromise is not necessarily the best solution. If I were to change all the things I consider to be wrong, the result would be the same. 144.138.194.121 14:30, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, I should have said you both claim to want the same thing. Mr 70.57-whatever is aberrantly keen to twist every scrap of evidence into a gay interpretation but you seem aberrantly keen to shrug it off as nothing. Mr 70.57-whatever is semi-literate and lacking in scholarly knowledge but your approach to the subject is also problematic because it suppresses information: while your point about the circular argument is important, you do not mention that the amount of homosexual references in the plays is genuinely unusual). Your approach as discussed above seems to be 'I personally do not think this is interesting, therefore it must go'. That's not the point of an encyclopedia. The article as it currently stands gives the evidence, such as it is, but stresses that it is inconclusive. What is wrong with that?
By the way, I entirely agree that there is not enough material about Marlowe as poet and dramatist in this article, but the solution to that is to actually write something about it. The Singing Badger 20:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Censorship v. 'allegations of censorship'

Let us not mince words here. Where you have the content of a work of major literary and artistic status which is ruthlessly hacked apart by a talentless apparatchik to suit the sensibilities of an audience patronisingly believed tó be too stupid to make their own intelligent decisions about content, what we are looking at is, er, censorship. I have read the mealy-mouthed snivelling in the Guardian and frankly never have I laughed so much at a pack of lies in a good long time. Sjc 05:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I won't mince my words either then. You are throwing your POV at the subject. Just because your incapable of comprehending the decisions the director claims he made (and I don't mean agree, I mean comprehend) it doesn't mean he's lying. The fact that The Times didn't even bother to quote the play's director in their attack article, relying entirely on quotes from someone else, makes me strongly suspect he's *always* maintained it is his artistic decision to turn the play from "anti-Turkish pantomime" to an attack on all religion (a stance which would have got Marlowe killed). And, as the play *still* depicts the Koran being burnt, he's hardly being a sop to Islamic militant. So unless you can present definitive proof that the play's director, and not someone else, has said the play was censored, it is alleged, and we should give the links, state the facts, and leave people to make up their own minds. Or do you believe that Wikipedians are so stupid that they can't make their own intelligent decisions about censorship? Average Earthman 08:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Having both seen the version of the play in question and rather better produced (uncensored) ones, I think there is only one word which fits the bill in this context: censorship. While I seldom subscribe to The Times' take on the world, they were pretty on the nail with this particular turkey. There is nothing alleged about it being censored. It just is. Much like Monty Python's Dead Parrot sketch, this play is censored. It isn't just modified, it has been nailed to its perch with a flim-flam of ersatz political correctness which does nothing for the play nor the people whose intellects are insulted and who have paid to watch it. For David Farr to argue that it isn't censorship is frankly disingenuous nonsense. I think you really ought to have a look at the notes on weasel words if you want to skirt as circuitously round the truth as you seem to wish to do. And I most certainly believe that there are some Wikipedians who are so stupid they won't be able to spot censorship until they are eventually rounded up by the Thought Police. By which time it will be far too late. Moreover it should be noted that the rework of the play occurred immediately in the wake of the July 7 bomb attacks in London. Coincidence? I suspect not. Sjc 09:48, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

PS: Terry Hands, (who directed a verbatim and unabridged Tamburlaine for the Royal Shakespeare Company has recently said on this subject: “I don’t believe you should interfere with any classic for reasons of religious or political correctness.” Sjc 10:01, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

PPS So unless you can present definitive proof that the play's director, and not someone else, has said the play was censored, it is alleged, and we should give the links, state the facts, and leave people to make up their own minds. You cannot seriously have an opinion on Kit Marlowe, the single most dangerous thinker of his age (bar none), and argue as pathetically as this. Let's hypothetically suppose the director kills 50 people and says he hasn't killed them, he isn't a murderer unless he says so? Er.......... Sjc 10:10, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

He isn't a murderer until a jury convicts him as such, as well you know. Anything else before then is someone's point of view. Average Earthman 12:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, let's do this in words of not more than one syllable, sorry, bit. The fact that a jury may or may not convict someone does not alter the facts: if a thing is, it is. This is a concept which is called reality, one which you may feel a need to read up on. And David Irving isn't a historical revisionist because he says he isn't rofl? Sjc 04:48, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally the online version of The Stage not exactly your most conservative of vehicles, has this to say (and unsuprisingly like anyone with eyes to see they also think it has been censored). [1] Sjc 10:22, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Anyone with any eyes can see the line "may have been censored". You might be outraged that anyone, particularly some wooly liberal atheist, would rewrite Marlowe, but that isn't censorship, that's a rewrite to their personal POV. Just because the Daily Mail and the Times scream otherwise doesn't make it so. Average Earthman 12:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The word "wooly" has two letter 'l's. Just because The Times (please note that it takes two capital 'T's) and The Daily Mail (definite article, therefore requiring a capitalisation) say so doesn't mean it is or was censored in my book either. However, let us look carefully at the evidence. Certain passages have been removed or variously altered or amended, which some may or may not argue, are central to the philosophical core of one of the most major of English 16th century plays. The reasons for the removal are entirely in the mind of the director: against a backdrop of the 7/7 London bombings, a wedge of pertinent content up and disappears. To an apologist for the feeble minded and cowardly looking for away to weaselly explain this away, we can blame the media for not understanding the director's intentions. To anyone else with an IQ that flickers marginally above the subnormal and a reading age beyond 4, this is going to look and smell suspiciously like censorship. I would further submit that the only POV in play here is yours' since the consensus of opinion in the real world seems to be that the removal of information by whatever agency to whatever intent for whatever reason is an act of censorship, not alleged (NB. note again weasel words please) censorship. Sjc 04:48, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

The reason is fear of the cutthroat Mahometan.

[edit] Christopher Marlowe's Patron

I'm confused at to the details of Thomas Walsingham, Marlowe's Patron. The link for the former person leads to a person who died 140+ years before Marlowe was born (plus the fact that he was a monk), which means that this Walsingham is incorrect, and the link should be removed until the correct details have been found.

[edit] Marlowe in modern fiction

I have a webpage listing Marlowe appearances in modern fiction. I think it might be a useful addition to this page, particularly given the Marlowe in fiction section.

However, because it is something I created (and because I'm new to Wikipedia editing), I'm not the most impartial judge for inclusion. I don't want this to seem like an ego thing, so do other people want to evaluate the page and whether it's suitable?

Thanks

LisRiba 19:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saying something negative

I don't mean to pick on Marlowe, but can anyone really think it's possible to say this with a straight face?

"The only contemporary dramatist to say anything negative about Marlowe was the anonymous author of the Cambridge University play The Return From Parnassus (1598) who wrote, "Pity it is that wit so ill should dwell, Wit lent from heaven, but vices sent from hell.""

Off the top of my head, you have Robert Greene who disses him as a Machiavellian atheist in Groatsworth of Wit and Perimedes, Henry Chettle who slams him as someone you don't want to know in Kind Heart's Dream, Thomas Kyd who goes into great detail in a couple letters about what an awful roomie Marlowe was, and Ben Jonson who criticized Marlowe's work as drama which "flies from all humanity". And maybe not contemporary, but one of the funniest Renaissance allusions to Marlowe has to be in that scene of Sir John Suckling's The Goblins when a Poet goes down to hell and asks if he can see one of the great poets, like Edmund Spenser, say. "Oh no, he's not here," says one of the devils, "but here's he that writ Tamburlaine!"

[edit] Kit Marlowe and gaiety

What the hell is going on here? The section on Kit's sexuality reads like a running argument: "Here's this proof taht he was gay" "or that might not be true because" "but then there's this thing". Look, he was homosexual. Simple. Don't disrupt wikiepdia to make some kind of POINT. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Out of date biography

On closely reading a lot of the material on Kit Marlowe, I found many of the details to be incorrect in light of new evidence. I would advise any one interested in his biography to read more up to date material. I've just finished Emeritus Professor Park Honan's biography (published 2005) and found it highly illuminating, and particularly helpful for my dissertation on crises of subjectivity in his later works. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.10.223.249 (talk) 20:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Twelve Years

Marlowe died twelve years before the Fawkes Gunpowder Plot, and that's the same number of years Prospero was stranded on the island in Shakespeare's The Tempest, before he withdrew himself and returned to Milan. I thought somewhere that this was possibly not a coincidence, but I can't remember where.

Arkhamite 21:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marlowe's homosexuality

I modified a lot of the language on Marlowe's sexuality, not because I desired to minimize the appearance that he was gay, but because the argument as presented did not work well. Homoerotic attraction in Marlowe's work causes as many problems as heteroerotic attraction: Edward's love for Gaveston destroys him, and Neptune's love for Leander destroys Leander. Marlowe's sympathy in Dido remains mostly with the Queen, but that play does not thematize homosexuality and at any rate the story was commonplace. No one in Marlowe's plays is fortunate in love, except for Tamburlaine and Zenocrate. Jlittlet 21:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested Marlowe Website Link

Dear Editors,

I would like to suggest the addition of my website on Christopher Marlowe to your links section.

As a professional writer, I have just completed a novel fictionalizing Marlowe’s life and thus collected many notes and documents on this subject. I have now posted this research on my site, including a detailed, easy-to-read profile on Marlowe, a comprehensive timeline, and descriptions of his known associates. I have also uploaded a collection of primary documents that relate to his controversial death (many of these documents are very difficult to find elsewhere on the web). I have cited my sources throughout the site, thereby giving the pages scholarly merit.

You may link to my Marlowe pages at: http://www.matthewgscarsbrook.com-a.googlepages.com/christophermarlowe

Thanks for your consideration. Best regards, Matthew Scarsbrook. Matthewscarsbrook 01:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not a tavern?

If Marlowe died in Eleanor Bull's home and not a business establishment, what bill did they argue over? Atropos 22:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

As best I understand, that "not a tavern" edit is in heavy need of de-emphasizing. It may well have been a tavern. There's no direct confirmation of that, which biographers are keen to point out, but the converse does not follow. Eleanor Bull was obviously running a business of some kind, and reasoned speculations conclude (from William Urry's Christopher Marlowe and Canterbury pg. 83) "that it may have been a place of public refreshment," or "Equally she may have been no more than a landlady whose lodger brought in some friends for the day and to whom she served food for which she expected payment". Eleanor Bull's name never appears negatively in the Rochester act books (where whorehouses, etc., were rung up), so whatever her place was, "it may be inferred that both Mrs Bull and her house were quite respectable" (Urry 84). 69.105.90.199 09:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Nicholl (author of The Reckoning) states (p 37) "Marlowe died not in a tavern or bawdyhouse. but in the house of a local official's widow". Robma 11:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, when launching into a fit of rhetoric at the end of a chapter, as he is wont to do. His more sober reflections at the beginning of the chapter read: "There was no lack of taverns in naval Deptford, but there is nothing to link Mrs. Bull with any of them, and if her house had been known by a sign it is likely that the inquest would have said so. More probably she ran a lodging-house or victualling-house, a private establishment which offered accommodation and food, rather than a public 'place of resort'." (pg. 35) As shown by his notes, his statements reflect no original research but are just riffs upon Urry's, though the speculation about what the inquest "would have" done is entirely Nicholl's own -- and his description is misleading, since the cite for there being "no lack of taverns" for which Eleanor Bull can't be linked to is from a survey conducted in 1609, when she had already been dead 13 years, and Urry had cited that survey as contextual support for the popular, though admittedly unproved, notion that Marlowe did die in a tavern. Deptford had a lot of taverns and Eleanor Bull may well have owned one, is the point.
The sum of it is we don't know the precise nature of the business Eleanor Bull was running. Urry gives the reasonable possibilities. To state, with emphasis, that it was not a tavern is taking the evidence where it will not follow, while to claim it was just a house owned by a widow is positively misleading, as even Nicholl concedes when he's not trying to amp up a good final bang to a chapter. 69.105.90.199 14:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Maybe these opposing viewpoints, should be included briefly in the article. It needs a bit a reformatting in general, though. Atropos 18:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I think an adequate statement would be that "Surviving records do not specify the precise nature of Eleanor Bull's establishment; it may have been a place of public refreshment, or a lodging house that offered food and accommodation." With cites to further reading in a footnote. I agree that this article is much in need of reshaping: why, for instance, is a factual discussion of Marlowe's life outside the theater included under the heading "The Marlowe legend"? I know there have been superior versions of this article in the past, but somebody has gone around deleting pertinent detail while adding fluff like the crank notion that he faked his death and wrote Hamlet. This article doesn't include any mention of his arrest for the murder of William Bradley or the squabble with William Corkine, or the literary scuffles he endured with Robert Greene and Henry Chettle, material that was in former versions of the article but has currently been placed into editorial limbo. The omission of the latter from the Marlowe's Reputation Among Contemporary Writers section is startling. 69.105.90.199 23:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, its a tragedy. I'm personally not an expert on Marlowe, but there's a shelf of biographies from the past 100 years at my city's main library, unfortunately in the reference section and not check-out-able. It was my plan to improve it as soon as I got a laptop. Anything you could do would be awesome. Atropos 23:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
All good stuff this...re the tavern: given the frequency with which definitive statements on this have been made over the years (incl. by, er, yours truly), perhaps someone would consider doing a side-bar on "Murdered in a "tavern" ?" or some such, reflecting the complex reality Robma 21:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)