Talk:China proper

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[edit] removal link to chinese wiki zh:中国本土

reason,china proper and zh:中国本土 have the different definition,one of the definition refered to all the territories of China.Ksyrie

Please don't be pedantic, the treatment of 中国本土 is as close we can get to a discussion on China proper in Chinese.--Niohe 19:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to make any no-go edits,in chinese wiki,there are at least two main definition of 中国本土,while one correspondants to china proper,another means the territory of china,so I found it not suitable to give the interlangue link to zh:中国本土,only if in en:China proper there are also the corresponding two definitions.Ksyrie

Stop deleting useful zh-links because they don't satisfy your perfect standards of 1:1 correspondence between different language versions in Wikipedia. Your acts are stumblingly close to WP:vandalism.--Niohe 21:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Be patient,I didn't intend to make any nationalist changes.The reason why I moved the link to zh:中国本土 is that, the topic in china proper and the topic in zh:中国本土 are not the same.That'a all,we cann't interlink two language version of wiki without the same topic.So if you really want to keep the chinese link zh:中国本土,you can either modify the article of China proper or zh:中国本土 to make the two article do tallk of the same topic.Furthermore,I acknowledge your idea don't satisfy your perfect standards of 1:1 correspondence between different language versions in Wikipedia.,But in our case,the definition of zh:中国本土 is too far from China proper.sometimes,we tolerate some small uncertainty ot nuances between different language wiki.But for zh:中国本土 and China proper,there are a big discrepancy.So I just suggested in chinese wiki to split zh:中国本土 in two articles,one corresponded to chinese daytimes used meaning ,one to China proper.Are you Ok?Ksyrie

No, I'm not satisfied and I think you should be patient and not delete useful links. The heading of zh:中国本土 clearly states "目前有大致有两种观点：一种观点（多为中国大陆民众）认为中国本土即指中国领土，一种观点（多为台湾）认为中国本土与英文的China Proper相当，指的是内地十八省的范围。在汉语字义上理解，中国本土指中国本有的土地、领土。" This is a close as we get, we don't need to rewrite the articles right now to establish a link between Chinese and English Wikipedia.

you sentence cann't make sense,since you have clearly understood the zh:中国本土 have the ambiguity of definition,people will automatically conclude that china proper and zh:中国本土 are not the same.So I just wonder that why you insisted on linking two differnet article?what is your finally aims to link two different articles?This can only cause confusion in understanding.Give me your reason,pleaseKsyrie

You just reverted WP:3RR and I'm reporting you to an administrator.--Niohe 22:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

For the last time: there is absolutely no need for 100% correspondence, or 一一对应 as you call it on Chinese Wikipedia. In case two topics do not cover each other entirely, the link is there to facilitate translation and creation of new, more precisely defined papes. Please refer to Wikipedia:Interlanguage_links#Purpose for more info and restore your deletion. You risk being blocked for WP:3RR violation.--Niohe 00:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other propers added for reference

I have added a number of other "proper" links to the article, to demonstrate that the use of proper on conjunction with a country name is well established in English. Here is another one:

List of Army Fortresses in Japan proper

--Niohe 20:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotation marks

I just deleted most of the quotation marks around China proper, they make the article look ridiculous. I know that the concept of China proper is controversial, but just as we don't put quotation marks around Manchukuo, we shouldn't do it here either.--Niohe 01:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tang Dynasty is not Han

The Tang were a synthetic dynasty, which was more Central Asian than Chinese to begin with and still very Central Asian even in its decline. The concept of Han Chinese Dynasties is a poor one and I recommend its removal from the "China Proper from the Historical Perspective" section. Elijahmeeks 21:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "China Proper" controversial?

I find this characterisation rather unsatisfactory. The problem is that the main objector to this terminology is the Chinese state and those who support its positions.

As the article states: "When the Qing Dynasty fell, Tibet, Inner Mongolia and Outer Mongolia were outside the administrative structure of China Proper, and it is possible to argue that after the fall of the Empire, Tibet and Outer Mongolia exited the de facto borders of China altogether...The subsequent PRC and ROC governments have sought to eliminate this separation in order to consolidate their territory." That is, Chinese governments are ideologically committed to eliminating and denying this division. The nature of the "controversy" is that Chinese governments have decided that "the separation doesn't exist".

But this doesn't mean that the division doesn't actually exist! Historically the division between territories under the administration of the Chinese bureaucracy and those outside of it exists (see Ming Dynasty military conquests for a look at what this meant), and the division between areas populated by Han Chinese and those populated by ethnic minorities also exists.

Nor is the Chinese government's position the only way of looking at China. It is not really Wikipedia's place to toe the political line of the state, but to record the facts. The facts are that historically and ethnically the difference exists, and that the Chinese government, for various reasons, is strongly committed to the position that it doesn't.

The entire introductory section, with its statements that "China proper is a controversial concept, since it is valid only from paradigms that contrast the core and the periphery of China", "However, the controversial nature of the term is somewhat mitigated if it is interpreted as the historical and cultural-anthropological center of the Chinese people", and "Generally speaking, the idea of China proper is quite malleable and its definition often changes depending on the context", are all rather mealy-mouthed and weaselly. The article seems to bending over backwards to recognise the position of those who are most vociferous about denying the division.

What the article should do is state and explain the distinction, discuss the history and dimensions of the distinction, and also note that under modern Chinese state ideology the difference is no longer considered to exist (and perhaps note that Chinese who subscribe to this ideology are opposed to recognising the distinction). But to state that the distinction is "controversial" because the Chinese government doesn't like it and many Chinese feel, for nationalistic reasons, that it shouldn't be recognised, seems to be giving rather too much credence to groups who are committed not to discussing the facts (historical dimensions, ethnic dimensions, etc.), but to discussing what the facts ought to be according to their own world view. This is ideology, not scholarship.

Bathrobe 06:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

As an afternote, I might add that official denial of a division between China Proper and peripheral regions can be regarded as controversial in itself. For instance, the Chinese government uses this position to give itself a free hand in swamping ethnic minority territories with Han Chinese, somewhat similar to Indonesian transmigrasi. Mention of "controversy" solely from the notion that "China Proper" offends the Chinese government and the nationalistic feelings of Chinese is quite POV. The other side of the "contoversy" should also be stated.

Bathrobe 07:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

After I had made the above comments, LionheartX made a number of changes to the article that went even further in the POV direction that I was concerned about. He/she has also failed to respond to my comment on his/her talk page.

It is entirely inappropriate to start the article, as LionheartX does, by saying that 'China proper is a controversial concept'. The concept is not particularly controversial outside China and is a legitimate way of viewing China, political considerations aside. All that is needed at the beginning is a definition of the concept. The controversy can be covered quite adequately within the article.

I've taken the opportunity to slightly change the wording within the article. The changes are not great, but (1) make it clear that the term 'China proper' is controversial within China (this is what the article said originally, before July 2006! The edit that changed that was rather heavily POV) (2) make it clear whose paradigm we are talking about -- that of the Chinese government. I am perfectly aware that many Chinese feel that the government paradigm is the correct one, but it is still POV as there are people who hold views in conflict with the government's views and their views should not be somehow labelled 'incorrect'.

I don't believe that the changes I've made are detrimental in terms of POV. They merely take the article away from the previous tone which seemed to one of abject apology to the Chinese government and people that Wikipedia should even presume to have an article on the subject of 'China proper'.

User:Bathrobe