Talk:Cher/Archive 1

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Contents

Meaning of the name Cher

Doesn't the primary meaning of the word "Cher" in English refer to the vocalist? If so Cher (entertainer) should go here and everything else should be in a disambiguation block. --mav

Correct. "Cher" should be moved here, and what's currently here should be moved to "Cher (disambiguation)". -Silence 05:16, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree. See also the discussion at Talk:Cher (entertainer) --Qirex 03:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC) nevermind, I see it got done.. whoops
Wait, why is this a redirect from Talk:Cher? --Qirex 03:30, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a link to Cher (disambiguation) at the top of the page? JimmB 00:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC) cher is so awesome chelsea is her biggest fan!
Agree, added link --Adhominem 18:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Cher's name(s)

I cannot work out from Google exactly what here name is/was. She appears to have had a muddled childhood with many step fathers. Sarkisian seems to be her father's name. What was here mother's name? One step father was LaPiere/LaPierre/Lapi<acent>ere or similar. Google refers to all of these as well as throwing Bono and Allman in for good measure. A para on here names would be good. -- SGBailey 14:43, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Sarkisian was her birth name from her biological father I believe. I think her mother's name was Georgia Holt. LaPierre/LaPierre was her stepfather's name. Then of course she changed her name when she married Bono and Altman, and some time after the Altman divorce she had her name legally changed to Cher, with no last names at all. "Just plain Cher", as she's referred to. (Entheta 18:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC))
According to the CABI, the name on her birth certificate is "Cheryl LaPiere".--Fallout boy 05:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Our article calls her Cherilyn, and the infobox calls her Cheryl...That really isn't acceptable. We need a definitive source. Michael 04:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Her name at birth was "Cheryl", and her current legal name is "Cher". Where did "Cherilyn" come from?--Fallout boy 21:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

"Cherilyn" came from her book "The First Time" where Cher tells us that nobody called her by her real name "Cherilyn"

I have always heard Cherilyn, never Cheryl. COnfusing. Entheta 14:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

American Indian ancestry?

I always thought the song "Half-Breed", about being half-Indian half-white, was autobiographical, yet there's no mention of her having American Indian ancestry in addition to her Armenian ancestry. Does anyone know? --Angr (t·c) 13:17, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Looking at her anecestry, it looks like it's European and Armenian. Ralph 31Jan06

Armenian is European.--Eupator 23:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Chers Mother is Half Cherokee


According to NativeCelebs.com, she is 1/16th Cherokee. Her mother would be, obviously, 1/8th. [1] -- WiccaIrish 10:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I've sourced Cher, though, with this [2]. Michael 04:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

POV

Although most of this article at least cites facts and figures, there are more than a few instances of heavy author bias--specifically the subsections titled "Solo artist, continued", "Fans keep believing", and "The future" which would be more at home on a Cher fan message board than an encyclopedia entry. ---Jackel 19:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I concur, the article is totally fanboyish. I will make some quick revisions but I dont have a lot of time right this second. I'll put it on my to-do list. Pacian 10:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Cher has fanboys?!

Yeah, it's still fanboyish. German fanboyish at that. I'll help to fix when I get a minute. Iamvered 22:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I've done some pretty extensive expunging of accolades, but more is needed. I'll get back to it soon, promise! Iamvered 19:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Looks good so far. (Entheta 21:15, 1 April 2006 (UTC))

Cher's Longevity

I believe the line "her longevity is the inspiration for this quote, by gay impressionist Jimmy James "After a nuclear holocaust, all that will be left are cockroaches and Cher"." is very naive. The line is (presumably) inspired by the belief that Cher has had a great deal of plastic surgery and would therefore survive a nuclear holocaust - her longevity (perhaps serendipitously) makes the line easier for ardent Cher fans to tolerate. The source is obviously a little tongue in cheek. Either way, I don't believe it's entirely accurate - certainly not worthy of a place in an encyclopedia. Should be deleted/changed.

I agree with the POV above by the way.

The quote that Cher will survive a nuclear holocaust is definitely a reference to her strength and longevity, it in no way involves plastic surgery.

How come there's no mention of her plastic surgery anyway? (Not that there is anything wrong with that.) She's one of the few who was always very open about it. "If I want boobs on my back then I get boobs on my back", or something like that.

Infobox

Since Cher is a very famous singer, and has released quite a few albums, don't you think we should have an infobox for this article? It would really help and bring a sense of "organization", if you will, to the article. --Newguineafan 22:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


How exactly is she mixed?


--- User IP: 152.163.100.10 stated on the 24th of March, 2006 that Cher died....this is clear vandalism.


George W. Bush "stupid" and "lazy"

Someone removed the sentence about Cher refering to George W. Bush as "stupid" and "lazy", in the "Political interests" section. I wonder why. If I remember correctly, this caused some controversy at the time. There are also several websites refering to it. (Entheta 21:24, 1 April 2006 (UTC))

Fun fact

"Cher" is cognate with "whore", both ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *kāro-. I'm not sure whether it should go in the article, but it's cool to know. --Ptcamn 18:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how it is relevant in this article. Check Cher (disambiguation) and see if there's any other article where that may be relevant. (Entheta 10:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC))

It's a crude, insulting word levelled againgstjeanne (talk) 16:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC) strong women by weak men.It should NOT go into the article!!!!

Images

Can we not do better than presently having just one picture/image of this almost legendary artiste ? Derek R Bullamore 22:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree, we need a better picture at the top and a few picture of Cher throughout the article spanning the many years and looks of her career. Manufracture 15:44, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

CHER SINGLES

this is a message to 72.141.104.171, stop and i mean STOP!!! u keep changing everything in this cher article that some of us have worked hard to keep up, your problem is that you change stuff and put wrong information instead, for example, bang bang the single no matter how much it was as promo it was still a single therefore it belongs there, consider this a warning next time ill ask for your blocking.

AWARDS

hey ppl lets make her awards section bigger by adding nominations either, this is only a suggestion makes her look better ;) Rsf7589 17:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Discography

The gigantic Cher/Sonny & Cher album/singles disography tables are repeated on the Cher discography article. They are not needed in both places. As with many other artists, I'm proposing removing all of it from here with an approprate link to the discography page. -- eo 22:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


Too many categories?

anyone agree that there are too many categories right now, im not suggesting that we erase content but we should keep them in less categories 66.30.14.0 00:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Not At All. I Think It Is Easier To Go To What You Want To See And It Is Better Organized This Way. 69.23.90.37 02:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Moonstruck Image

Does the Moonstruck movie poster have to appear twice in this article? --Iriseyes 17:01, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Cher's New Album

People keep adding information that a new album was recorded in 2006 and slated to be rock and due soon. Does anyone have an acredited source? Wikipedia requires the content to be verifiable. If not, it cannot be added. I will submit a request to lock the article if people keep adding misinformation. UPDATE: An article cannot be locked unless it's for protection. Look under "Locking article". This is not used for an "edit war". Swisspass 23:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Opening claims

64.131.196.204 06:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)"Emerged" is an awful verb to describe a pop culture icon's status as an icon. Cher is such an icon because she has endured, not emerged. The "most respected" link is a joke; it's just some chess guy listing various celebrities and their tangential relationships to chess. Using that url as a "sourced" citation is nonsense. If the "respected" claim can't be backed up elsewhere, it should be dropped. Of course, if Cher is a much-respected chess grandmaster, that should be included. A 40-year career as an entertainer is definitely admirable, but not unusual. It is certainly nowhere near a record. Think of all the singers, actors, writers, et al who have remained in the public's affection for a half century or more. Changing "of all time," which is simply untrue, to "of her time" seems like meeting the Cher fans more than halfway.

64.131.196.204 21:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)Gushing puffery combined with shaky writing is a rough combination. "Has emerged a legendary pop icon"? C'mon. "Has become one of the great American icons of the 1900s"? What does this even mean? Did Cher do vaudeville with Gallagher & Shean?

The idea that Cher's film directing career needs to be in the first paragraph is also nonsensical. Perspective, please.

24.239.177.167 23:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)The citations that keep being reinserted for the puffery in the opening section are for press releases and open-edit bio sites. Cher's longevity and accomplishments speak for themselves, and do not require half-assed urls and weird writing choices to prop them up. Should I go delete the poorly-chosen verb "emerged" from the other website so it will stop mesmerizing you? You're a big Cher fan, we get it already.

24.239.177.167 23:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)All I'm trying to say is, who looks at a concluding paragraph that reads "...career has surpassed 40 years... legendary pop icon... most enduring entertainers of our time... sold over 180 million records..." and thinks, "Hmmm, needs something a little more complimentary"?

24.239.177.167 21:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)Greco, your single-minded User Contributions page, and your insistence on re-re-re-re-posting bad edits supported by shaky links, are doing you little credit. What can be done to convince you that an "icon" does not "emerge"?

24.239.177.167 22:27, 26 November 2006 (UTC)Oh, look! Cher doesn't "emerge" anymore! That was some ironclad source!

http://www.last.fm/music/Cher/+wiki?action=view

Guinness Book of World Records

24.239.177.167 00:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)Can we get something more solid on the Guinness citation for Cher's highest-grossing tour? "Nearly $400 million" is unnecessarily vague, and obviously doesn't come from the book. Guinness doesn't list the world's tallest man as being "a bit over 8 feet."

As best as I can tell, Guinness cites the $192.5 million figure, and that has since been extrapolated in order to include the extended dates for the tour.
Speaking of math, perhaps someone could explain how the additional 52 concert dates grossed as much money as the previous 273.
You need to cite a source. Currently, it is correct to say that Cher is listed in the Guinness Book of Records, and it is correct to say that she sold $192.5m in ticket sales. It is not correct to say that she has the biggest selling female tour ever, as other sources state differently. Billboard have upped the Modonna figure to $260m [3]. I also disagree with the logic, that they would have stopped counting ticket sales midway through her tour. Whether she is 270, 350, 400, 1000 concerts, the figure logically is in total. That however is POV. 60.234.242.196 09:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Cher's record in the Guiness World Records 2007 is based on the North American chapter of her tour, according to one researched source (a forum, so non-referenceable). There is no figure given for the worldwide tour ticket sales. Madonna has been given a total for all 60 of her concerts, of $260 million. As there is no actual figure given for Cher's total ticket sales, then this world record title will always be in dispute.Maggott2000 23:37, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Samples File Format

Do we really believe that the audio samples (at least in the first two boxes) are in OGG format? My illiminable OGG codec refuses to play them, and looking at them using a binary editor, they look awfully like RIFF WAVE files. At a minimum, the extension should be change to wav. Or better, re-encode the file with an OGG codec. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.199.120.109 (talk) 22:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

Pete Burns

In the section about her being a gay icon there should be something about him! He copies her soooo much. He used to wear the same wig as her, he often has the same makeup, he's had his facial structure modified to the point where his face looks like a clone of her, his clothes are very similar, some blatant rip-offs of her legendary outfits AND he even has the same tattoos as her! I mean, come on. Look on deadoralive.net in the 'press' section and you'll find loads of interviews with bits about Cher... 80.41.104.38 20:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


Moonstruck

The fair-use rationale for the Moonstruck artwork clearly states that it is fair use to use it only to illustrate the movie. Should it not be removed from this article?--Eva bd 21:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

"List ofs" in See also

Do we really need to list 16 "List of...." entries in the See also section? Wouldn't the first three of those be enough? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 13:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Plastic Surgery

I'm surpised there is no section about her plastic surgery. She has had some extensive work done and she doesn't even look like the cher from back in the 60's and 70 MRGQ 06:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

GA comment

The copyrighted images need fair use rationales or the article will be quick failed. The rationale must say specifically on the image page for what pages it will be used on. Look to other GA/FA articles for examples. --Nehrams2020 22:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you list the images which are copyrighted so that we know which ones need this issue to be addressed? Thanks. SP-KP 22:26, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

They would include: Image:Sonnyandcher1.JPG, Image:Cher-all-i-really-want-to-do.JPG, Image:Cher time cover.jpg, Image:Chermoonstruck.jpg, Image:Moonstruck PUB02.jpg, Image:Believe1998.jpg, Image:Cherasgod.jpg, and Image:Greatest-hits-1965-1992.jpg. --Nehrams2020 16:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Here is what I propose is needed for each of these images:

  • Image:Sonnyandcher1.JPG - retain, with justification that it is no longer possible to create such an image as Sonny Bono is dead
  • Image:Cher-all-i-really-want-to-do.JPG - remove from article, as I cannot find an FA which includes an album cover with a fairuse justification
  • Image:Cher time cover.jpg - remove from article, as I cannot find an FA which includes a magazine cover with a fairuse justification
  • Image:Chermoonstruck.jpg - remove from article, as I cannot find an FA which includes a film poster with a fairuse justification
  • Image:Moonstruck PUB02.jpg - retain, looks as though this is freely available on the web?
  • Image:Believe1998.jpg - remove from article, as I cannot find an FA which includes an album cover with a fairuse justification
  • Image:Cherasgod.jpg - retain, looks as though this is freely available on the web?
  • Image:Greatest-hits-1965-1992.jpg - remove from article, as I cannot find an FA which includes an album cover with a fairuse justification

Any comments?

SP-KP 18:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

GA Fail

I have failed the article for GA status. My reasons are:

  • There are still many [citation needed] templates throughout the article
  • Over 15 of the 59 references are not formatted correctly
  • Early life is pretty short, and could do with extending with more content and references

Once these fixes have been made, the article would stand a strong chance of obtaining GA status - • The Giant Puffin • 18:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Chermoonstruck.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:Cher-all-i-really-want-to-do.JPG

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Fair use rationale for Image:Chermoonstruck.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:Cher-all-i-really-want-to-do.JPG

Image:Cher-all-i-really-want-to-do.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:Greatest-hits-1965-1992.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:Sonnyandcher1.JPG

Image:Sonnyandcher1.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Pope???


Umm ... I'm going to assume that Cher did't really assassinate the Pope, so can we perhaps get rid of that??? - LK

Pic

where is the pic?

Cher's Album Sales

What's with the unrealistic numbers the bio has?
First it said CHER sold 3million in the US and 10 worldwide. Then, that Love Hurts sold over 10 million worlwide (discography states 1.4 million).
Finally, It's A Man's World is stated as having sold 3 million copies worldwide while the discography says it sold just 0.1million. I can understand It's A Man's World selling more than the discography states but not Love Hurts. I find it doubtful that she sold 500,000 in the US and 9.5 million in Europe alone. It would be quite the feat but highly unlikely.
LIVING PROOF also states it sold six million copies worlwide but the discography says 3. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.231.125.45 (talk) 18:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a unique form of Wiki vandalism that inflates chart positions, sales figures, and awards. Blondie has been going through this for some time, among others. I can't figure out if the reasoning behind this is insecure fans who feel their favorites need such things to look even better than they are, or run-of-the-mill vandals who are trying to make Wiki an unreliable source of accurate information. Abrazame 08:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

From what, a week off to do the laundry and take in the mail?

Love Cher, want to get that out of the way. The 1989 album is referred to as "her most successful comeback yet," or something to this effect. Yet the 1989 album was a continuation of the successful working relationship with Bolton, Bon Jovi, Warren et al, which had been established on her previous 1987 album, and its 1987 and 1988 hit singles (as is duly mentioned in the article). Cher has had more legitimate comebacks than just about anyone I can think of, and I would certainly consider 1987 a comeback in the field of music even though she was already hugely in the public eye for her acting work. But 1989 was not a comeback, musically or otherwise! It was a progression further along a road traveled both of the two previous years. Can we reword that somehow? Abrazame 08:48, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Colleges

During this time, the duo was a big hit on diverse college campuses across the country, including Stanford University, a large university in California, as well as St. Lawrence University, a small Upstate New York college.

Why do these two colleges merit a special mention? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.157.241.42 (talk) 08:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There is Some errors in the text!!!!

There is some somebudy that writing some stupid things ilke The Album Living proof Sold in totle 745,000 copies Worldwide and Allso in Love hurts , heart of stone and The Very Best of Cher if it's okey so i corrected it if it okey thank you and can you plase Cheak How Was That person

And sorry for my English Thank you DennyCt —Preceding unsigned comment added by DennyCt (talk • contribs) 21:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Cher in dark lady.JPG

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BetacommandBot 09:28, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Cher in one by one dance.JPG

Image:Cher in one by one dance.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 09:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

2000-2002 subhead; "Sales" ranks

The subhead read "Career established". Well, gee. I kind of think that, this being the 12th subsection of Cher's career bio, the suggestion that Cher's career hadn't been established until the turn of the millennium is a little behind the curve. I'm not in love with my change, "Legacy of achievement," so if someone can come up with something that better captures the spirit of this three-year span in Cher's career, by all means go and change it, just not back to "Career established"! The lifetime achievement awards, Cher's inclusion in the Diva concerts, and other awards and collaborations seem to suggest this was an era where others embraced her as a survivor, recognized the longevity of her contribution, and exalted her to something beyond celebrity, I was trying to capture that in four words or less, and didn't want it to read as fan-boy-ish.

In another note about this section, it seems to read with a preconceived determination, or perhaps an ethnocentric perspective. If the data at The Music's No Good Without You is accurate, this song was top ten in the UK and eleven other countries around the world, including several top 5s and two #1s. That doesn't sound like a resounding defeat. And again, if the numbers at Cher discography are correct, the singles from Living Proof duplicated the success of the singles from Believe in that three of them hit #1 on the U.S. Dance airplay chart, and—contrary to what would be gleaned from the bio—actually exceeded the sales success of the Believe singles, by having three peaking at #7 in sales and two at #11. Not only is this better than the Believe singles, it's comparable to the ranking of the singles sales for Heart Of Stone. That radio no longer plays pop music (and so the songs combined points didn't take them up the Hot 100) doesn't take away from the fact that she still had bestselling singles; if anything, it's a greater testament to her public's connection to her material. ...Unless what is being called "sales" for the Heart Of Stone singles is the Hot 100 singles sales chart, and what is being called "sales" for the Living Proof album is actually the Dance Singles Sales chart. The bio should be changed to reflect the actual success of "The Music's No Good..." and then either the sales figures should be split into two distinct columns (if the figures aren't comparable), or the article should be further altered to acknowledge their U.S. success. Abrazame (talk) 02:53, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Cher's age?

She just said she's 52 on David Letterman????? How come she's 61? Why would she lie on national television about her age which is (presumably) easily verifiable ? Capricornis (talk) 08:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Could it be because the episode they aired tonight was first aired on Nov 18, 1998? Wildhartlivie (talk) 09:06, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
the writers strike! ta-daaaam! Capricornis (talk) 18:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)