Talk:Charlemagne

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[edit] Automatic addition of "class=GA"

A bot has added class=GA to the WikiProject banners on this page, as it's listed as a good article. If you see a mistake, please revert, and leave a note on the bot's talk page. Thanks, BOT Giggabot (talk) 05:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


Iv read lots of info that says that the big C carried the Lance of Longinus as his weapon and aparently he lost his first battle after dropping the lance int he river. I think it was the venice lance of longinus that he carried. I couldnt find any reference to this in the article, dont you think its kinda important seeing how he may of used a weapon that peirced a God? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.160.169.24 (talk) 07:02, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alpaida

Is there any possibility that Alpaida was born earlier than 794, perhaps closer to 775?
Odin of Trondheim (talk) 00:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Birth

The section on Charlemagne's date of birth discusses dates in 752 and 757, but the info box at the top right seems to be showing dates in the 740s. Which is supported by the evidence? EdChem (talk) 00:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

It has been fixed. EdChem (talk) 04:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Obsession

Whoever it was who wrote this article on Charlemagne sure liked Einhard. o_O Snick! (talk) 01:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Karl der Grosse

Charlemagne is a historical figure specific to the monarchies of France and Germany, so his German name should be included in the introduction. Charlemagne's Roman Empire soon became the Holy Roman Empire which was ruled by German monarchs continuously from Otto I in 962 until Franz II in 1806. It was a German empire in all but name until the 16th century when it was officially named the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. On German Wikipedia he is referred to as Karl I, der Grosse, meaning that Germans officially regard him as their first monarch. --Hereward77 (talk) 16:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, Charlemagne is a pivotal historical figure to all of Western Europe - not just France and Germany. Will the Letzeburgish translation be added? Secondly, it doesn't matter what the Frankish Empire became, Charlemagne didn't rule it. George Washington came from Virginia, but nobody's going to describe him as first President of the Confederacy. Thirdly, it wasn't a German Empire in all but name - just ask the Flemish, Swiss, Dutch, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Ruthenians, Danes, etc. etc. Forthly, Henry the Navigator was never king of England to my knowledge, but this is how the English-language Wikipedia refers to him. Fifthly, this is the English-language Wikipedia, not the German, or the Dutch, Lezteburgish, Danish, etc. etc. Sixthly, we've been over this already. Slac speak up! 01:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The Holy Roman Empire was a German empire ruled by German emperors from beginning to end, and Charlemagne was Karl I, der Grosse, of the Holy Roman Empire. Are you going to remove Pyotr Velikiy from the Peter the Great article for example? --Hereward77 (talk) 19:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Simply not true. Charlemagne was not a German, and did not speak German. The Russian language (and Russia) at least existed during the lifetime of Peter the Great. Slac speak up! 09:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
He didn't speak German? Surely that is wrong. (Obviously, he didn't speak modern German, but he spoke a Germanic dialect). john k (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see what harm would come from including his German name in the article. john k (talk) 14:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
In the simplest possible terms: the problem is that it's an anachronism. We don't know what Charlemagne's native language was, whether it was Frankish or Old Low Franconian; either way, it wasn't the ancestor of Modern Standard German. We might as well give Henry VIII's name in Dutch and say it was close enough. And to reiterate for the Nth time, Germans aren't the only people who claim heritage from Charlemagne: why are they, and not any one of half a dozen other peoples, singled out in the opening sentence of the article? Slac speak up! 00:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
You don't have an argument here, Henry VIII wasn't king of Holland. Charlemagne was officially numbered Karl I of the Holy Roman Empire (of the German Nation) and the Holy Roman Emperors named Karl were numbered after him. BTW, Germany was named by the Romans 2,000 years ago, and the Frankish people were from Germany. --Hereward77 (talk) 18:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
You're talking about the "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation", and we're talking about Charlemagne. You're obviously missing the point. And I don't really see what the Romans naming Germany 2000 years ago has to do with it. The Romans were surely not talking of the Germany as Charlemagne knew it. No, Charlemagne was never officially numbered Karl blablabla in his lifetime. He was crowned Carolus, emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, period. This Empire became "of the Germans" 62 years after his death and is different of the Carolingian Empire, founded by Charles Martel. Slac has already answered your question. Anyway, I see there's an article about the names of Charlemagne, you should be happy, no ? Somwherelse 23:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.32.207.68 (talk)
Actually, he wasn't crowned Holy Roman Emperor at all - that title would not exist for centuries. Slac speak up! 05:05, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be a very strong anti-German bias here. It doesn't seem to matter the Franks were a Germanic tribe, and that the Germanic tribes are the fore-fathers of the Germans (and French, btw). - History is written by the victor: Latin Proverb Barking1 (talk) 15:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

It's strange, in the proper meaning of that word, that English Wikipedia uses the French Charlemagne rather than the established Charles the Great or the documented Latin Carolus Magnus. I'm adding Karl der Große to the intro, and the etymology of the name, found at Churl. -- Matthead  Discuß   21:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Concerning the size of Charlemagne and the meaning of his epithet

I've just removed the following piece of dubious information from the article,

The Germanic variants (den Store, de Grote, de Grutte, der Große, and de Groussen) also refer to the fact that Charlemagne was tall (seven of his own feet, or 1.93 m (6 ft 4))[1].

Names of other Carolingian rulers also refer to their physical features. For example Pippin the Short, Charles the Bald, Charles the Fat, and Louis the Stammerer.

There also was a footnote to the first passage that run, Which means that Charlemagne had modern European shoe size 44 or American shoe size 10.

This information is questionable for several reasons (and therefore does not belong into the article):

  • The information that Charlemagne was 1.93 m tall is outdated. It is derived from a measurement when Charlemagne's shrine in the cathedral of Aix-la-Chapelle was opened in the 19th century and his bones were measured. In the 20th century, the shrine of Charlemagne was again opened and his bones were measured again, but then, with improved forensic methods, it was discovered that he was "only" 1.82 m tall.
  • Besides, the removed information mingled the first outdated measurement of Charlemagne's bones with a fact reported by Charlemagne's biographer Einhard, namely that Charlemagne was seven of his own feet tall (Einhard, Vita Karoli magni, chapter 22). Then to speculate in a footnote out of Einhard's "seven-feet"-remark combined with the outdated measurement what Charlemagne's shoesize might have been today is truly dubious and constitutes original research.
  • Moreover, it is one-sided (and again constitutes original research) to conclude that Charlemagne's epithet/cognomen "the Great" (den Store, der Große or whatever) therefore referred to his physical tallness. It did not necessarily, because AFAIK modern historians agree that his cognomen "the Great" (which had already been given to Charlemagne by his contemporaries) was mainly a name of honor and an allusion to his political significance.

--Consputus (talk) 15:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Good job! Srnec (talk) 23:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Revival/secession

There was no such concept as Byzantine Empire in 800 either. But note that the version I want does not say (though it does link) "Western Roman Empire", but rather "Roman Empire in the West", which is accurate. Charles' coronation was a revival of the concept of the imperium Romanum in the West(ern Europe). The Roman Empire had been ruled by two emperors in the past, so crowning a second emperor is not ipso facto secession. Besides, the pope tried to justify it. It may be a 1200-year-old POV, but it's still a POV that it was a "secession". On the other hand, "attempted revival of" is accurate. If don't want the link to W. R. E., remove it and just link Roman Empire; I won't mind. But to refer to Charles' coronation in 800 as a secession from the Byzantine Empire is misleading to most readers. Besides, you haven't specified what, if not the Franks, was seceding. The pope? He can't secede because "the papacy" isn't a part of a state, like Byzantium. The duchy of Rome? Sure, maybe, but that's not nearly as relevant to Charles' coronation as the revival of a Christian idea of "emperor" in Western Europe. And, of course, Rome was de facto outside Byzantine control and had been for a long time. Srnec (talk) 02:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

First you're not right that Rome was ouside Byzantine control at the time. In fact the papacy tried to secess even earlier - at 727 when Gregorius II condemned iconoclastic edicts of imperator Leo III. But then imperial general Eutychius suppressed the upspring and recaptured Rome. After Irene denounced iconoclasts there was no trench between Rome and Constantinople until the proclamation of Carolus emperor in 800. Second. You're right that Byzantine empire is also a concept invented in much later time, so we indeed better to use the term Roman empire. But if such, then no "revival" of Roman empire could be, because from point of view of contemporaries Roman empire never ceased to exist. How one can attempt to "revive" what is not dead? In fact it was rather an anti-imperial move, a move against Constantinople's dominance.--Certh (talk) 02:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Rome was de facto outside Byzantine control. It was ruled by the Popes on a day-to-day basis and Byzantine attempts at influence in the ducatus Romanus were sporadic at best. My chief problem with your edit (besides the word "Byzantine") is the word "secede": it may be technically true in a legal sense that the ducatus Romanus was "seceding" from Byzantium, but it is misleading to state it outright, since most readers will not know the finer points, they will assume that some entity (and your edit does not make clear what) was leaving the Byzantine Empire when in fact the entity was a small one which Charlemagne had never before ruled and which was not under Byzantine control at the time anyway. The word "revival" is meant to connect "Roman Empire" to "in the West". The Empire did not cease to exist, of course, but it ceased to be recognised in the West: the Franks didn't recognise it (as the political authority), nor the Goths, nor the Lombards. The move was only anti-imperial from the Constantinopolitan point of view, but from Charles' and Leo's it was the only imperial possibility, since God was (clearly) smiling on Charles and Constantinople was out of His favour. But we could debate this—as historians still do and I did once before, see Talk:Charlemagne/Archive 1#Roman Emperor, East and West—until we're blue in our faces, so I just suggest we find a compromise wording superior to both versions. How about this:
During his reign, he conquered Italy and was crowned Imperator Augustus by Pope Leo III on 25 December 800 as a rival to the Byzantine Emperor in Constantinople and the first Roman Emperor in the West since 476.
It has the advantages of including mention/links of Byz. Empire, Const., and W. Roman Empire. It also changes "secede" to "as a rival", which gets the point across but I don't misleads the reader as much. Finally, it also explains what "revival" really meant. What do you think? Srnec (talk)
Franks and Lombards were outside of the Empire and the Gothic kingdom had dispeared centuries before 800 (it was defeated during the rule of Justinian I). Imperial authority was recognized in Rome (where the Pope was located). We have no reason to say that the empire had no control over Rome. Also I object your wording because of the following:
  • It was not 476, but 480 when the empire was reunified after the death of Julius Nepos.
  • But even if we change it to 480 it would be incorrect. You state that Carolus was the first Roman Emperor in the West since the end of 5th century. In fact, Phocas, Maurice, Constans II all visited Rome and made orders there. So they were Roman emperors in the West. There was no such title as "Eastern Roman Emperor" - all of them were simply styled "Roman emperor".--Certh (talk) 07:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I am referring to Western Europe in general, not just Italy or Rome. Imperial authority had evaporated everywhere but parts of Italy, where it was constantly waning. (I meant Visigoths.) In Rome itself it was, to my knowledge, weaker than it had been in either Ravenna, Naples, or Bari. If you have sources to state otherwise, please bring them to the table.
As to the date, I chose 476 because Nepos was in Dalmatia until 480 and that area is not part of Charlemagne's empire and so is not relevant. Constans II died in 668, long before 800 and much had changed in the interim. You have too high an idea of Byzantine power in Italy during this period: they were "Roman Emperors" until 1453, but they did not hold Rome during all that time. It wasn't to the emperors that the pope cried for help in the 8th century. Byzantine power in Italy would not see a real resurgence until the reign of Basil II, and that was brief. How about just chopping of the Western empire stuff:
During his reign, he conquered Italy and was crowned Imperator Augustus by Pope Leo III on 25 December 800 as a rival of the Byzantine Emperor in Constantinople.
Does that suffice? Srnec (talk) 21:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Charlemagne (disambiguation)

There are many uses of Charlemagne, yet there was no Charlemagne (disambiguation) until now. In the intro, only a link to some band was given. Webcruft galore. -- Matthead  Discuß   21:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA Sweeps

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are a great many issues that may need to be addressed. The first and most noticable of these problems is sourcing; some parts of the article are barely sourced at all and in others sourcing switches between the [2] inline citations and the less popular (Harvard p. 42) citations. These should all be made to conform to one single citation system (I prefer the former, but will be happy with the latter so long as the article is consistant). If someone takes responsibility for this problem and begins to fix it then I will work with them to deal with the other problems that beset this article, which include poor prose and incorrect formatting. I will check back and if progress is being made and issues are being addressed, then work can continue. If no one has come forward in the next seven days however, this article will be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, Jackyd101 (talk) 20:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

No work in the last week, this has been delisted from GA.--Jackyd101 (talk) 14:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)