Talk:Charitable organization

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[edit] Country specific information under legal definitions

The Legal Definitions section of the article is country specific and should not be a part of the general article. Worse, it doesn't even say which country (though most users can guess).


—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.42.92.28 (talk) 22:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Separate page for "British Charities"?

I suggest that material on British Charities should be put on to the Charities page, not on a separate "British Charities" page. Any adequate discussion of British Charities must duplicate a great deal of what is on the Charities page and what is unique to British Charities can be covered better in the UK section of the charities page. This approach avoids duplication and facilitiates comparative study. Accordingly, I have emailed Wikipedia and suggested that the British Charities page should be deleted. In the meantime I have put in a cross reference from the British Charities page to the Charities page. James Kessler.

[edit] Charity Supervision example

I removed a link to an article that was used as an example of charity supervision. The example used was quite a good one (UK Government insisting the RSPCA put human needs first) put was part of a larger article attacking the RSPCA on a self-published website dedicated to attacking the same charity. This can't be considered a reliable source. However the website did say the jugement was heavily covered in the March 27, 1996 Guardian. If anyone has access to that, perhaps they could see if it is a suitable reference and put it in instead. --Siobhan Hansa 12:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reword General?

I don't think old age is a service. This should be reworded. YB3 (talk • contribs • Kitten Huffing) 05:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Charities all non-profit organizations?

I don't think this is really true. It might be true for many organizations, but it's conceivable that there is a for-profit organization, doing charitable work, that claims it's a charity.

All 501(c)(3) Public Charities are non-profit organizations, but I really don't think that everywhere and anywhere that anything that calls itself a charity is always going to be exclusively non-profit. Fredsmith2 09:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

While a for profit company might call itself a charity, I don't think that fits in with the common concept of a charity, and in many places such a claim would probably be seen as fraudulent. There are lots of examples of for-profit companies who provide services within areas that are often served by charities - for-profit schools and hospitals for instance. But the for-profit companies are not considered charities. The pecuniary interest of the owners means they cannot - as organizations - be properly philanthropic. Only the owners, individually, can be. In recent times the term social enterprise has been used as a label for for-profit companies who are set up with the intent of making money for their owners and "doing good". -- SiobhanHansa 12:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but still the wording should probably be changed. Google has over 2,000 instances of the phrase For-profit charity that doesn't mention not-for-profit charity. Fredsmith2 12:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Those make interesting reading - but I couldn't find anything that explained how a for-profit charity was different from a for-profit corporation (and much of the writing made it sound like they weren't - they just wanted to be called charities). It would be good to find a reliable source tht explains what the concept of a for-profit charity is so we can write about the distinction properly. -- SiobhanHansa 13:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
In the USA, Nonprofit corporation is an entity created under a state's nonprofit corporation law, generally those entities organized for religious, educational or charitable purposes can incorporate under state nonprofit corporation law. A charity is an organization that may be organized as a nonprofit corporation, if it meets the state's legal requirements. Amycsj 14:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand this. You talk about what nonprofit corporations are and then you say that charities may be nonprofit corporations. But that doesn't say anything about whether charities also exist that are for profit organizations of some kind. Am I missing something?
It seems to me we need to separate out the use of the word "charity" from the concept of "a charity" as understood by experts (which would, I would think include people from legal, tax and various philosophy backgrounds, as well perhaps, as those involved in the charitable sector of the economy). Do some experts recognize for-profit charities as charities? Or is it wishful thinking/marketing/an attempt to align with a preferred set of values (or something else entirely) on the part of the for profit?-- SiobhanHansa 19:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
In the USA, charitable organizations may not be for-profit and instead they must be non-profit. "Charitable" is a word of art, meaning that the organizations may support youth sports like little league or scientific research or activities more in line with what is colloquially known as "charity" such as helping the sick, hungry, and poor. A chartiable organization may be organized in several forms. One of which is the corporation, which means that it is organized under the laws of the state in which it is a resident; corporation does not mean that is is for-profit but that it has a board of directors and so forth. If a charitable organization, such as a non-profit corporation that incorporated under the laws of its state, decides to make a profit and distribute that profit to donors or the board of directors or someone related to the board, then the IRS will say that the organization is no longer a "charity" and will then tax its income the same way they would an ordinary business.-- EECavazos (talk) 20:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
A business may call itself a charity even though it is for-profit, but the IRS will ignore their subjective self-classification. Maybe in a policy discussion people will argue whether a for-profit organization can be a charity, but in the USA the IRS and Congress are pretty clear about the role profit has in the classification of an organization as a charity. If a for-profit organization tries to call itself a charity, it is actually breaking the law . . . think of fraud or misrepresentation and so forth. The nearest a charity can come to being for-profit is having a side-business with which it funds it's charitable activities, however, that side-busienss would then be subject to the Unrelated Business Income Tax.-- EECavazos (talk) 20:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
"For-profit" business means that the owners of a business get the profit like the dividends that a shareholder receives. However, "non-profit" organization/business means that it is not owned by anyone and so no-one receives any profit. Any money that the non-profit organization may make whether through investment or donations or royalties does not leave the organization. Charitable organization is a subset of this where it may not give the donors any "profit" that the charity may have made like how some foundations have endowments that invest in the stock market.-- EECavazos (talk) 20:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The "for-profit" charities mentioned in a google search ends up giving you results where the word "charity" is in quotes. Other links are policy discussions about the idea of creating for-profit charities.-- EECavazos (talk) 20:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
So if I understand this - it is only looking at the concept of a charitable organization through the eyes of US tax law?
Also, do you have a reference for the idea that a for-profit simply calling itself a charity is fraud in at least some jurisdictions? It was my initial reaction - but I was surprised when trying to research this that I couldn't find any sources that said that "a charity" had to be non-profit. I didn't really expect to find that in the US. I was under the impression that there was not a legal concept of "a charity" in the US, and only non-profit status was codified - in the tax laws under specific sections (such as the 501(c)s) and under each state's laws for incorporating or otherwise creating a legal entity. I did think there would be something in British law, but I have been unable to find it so far. I also haven't yet found anything in journals (though my searches are pretty much limited to Google at the moment) that specifically cover this point, or anything that looks at the idea from a global perspective. -- SiobhanHansa 21:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
For the USA, this will give you plenty of information: [1]. I spoke of only the USA. A "charity" is meaningless in the law of the USA, it is only used for informal conversation; it is colloquial. USA law defines a couple of types of organizations that are "charitable." "Charity" is too simple of a description and only means that the organization must be a non-profit that has a charitable purpose. The closest to "charity" you can get is a "public charity" which is well defined in the US tax code and must be a non-profit. Each state within the USA also has its own respective laws, but for tax reasons largely is in line with the US Tax Code. For other countries, we would need to find experts on their respective laws. As I understand with British law, they tend to not put much into specific classifications of organizations that could be called a charity and instead rely on a general charitable purpose. It is possible that you could have a for-profit charity, but I don't find it very likely.-- EECavazos (talk) 21:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
In the USA if you have a business that is for-profit, you can't call yourself a charity because a charity must be a non-profit. Charity is synonymous with non-profit. Actually, I think "public charity" as a term does not actually exist in the tax code but rather is understood as a collection of organizations (non-profit). You can find the USA law in section 501 and section 170. They refer to a charity as a "corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office." That was 501(c)(3). This is 170(c), "(c) Charitable contribution defined For purposes of this section, the term “charitable contribution” means a contribution or gift to or for the use of— (1) A State, a possession of the United States, or any political subdivision of any of the foregoing, or the United States or the District of Columbia, but only if the contribution or gift is made for exclusively public purposes. (2) A corporation, trust, or community chest, fund, or foundation— (A) created or organized in the United States or in any possession thereof, or under the law of the United States, any State, the District of Columbia, or any possession of the United States; (B) organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals; (C) no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual; and (D) which is not disqualified for tax exemption under section 501 (c)(3) by reason of attempting to influence legislation, and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office." -- EECavazos (talk) 21:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Charity is encompassed in the penumbra of sections 501 and 170. You see charitable purpose in 501 and 170 and section 170 is about to which organizations you may give contributions that allow for the charitable contribution deduction. If you want something that says "charity" you won't see it instead you'll see charitable and all sorts of organizations that may receive a contribution that qualifies as a charitable contribution. So when you say charity, it at least means that the organization must be a non-profit and all the other defintions for it are quite large, as you can see from the selections I posted above.-- EECavazos (talk) 22:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
You've been working hard EECavaros! That legal reference is great - I've been searching for that sort of cut and dried pronouncement and did not find it! -- SiobhanHansa 22:39, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I just hope this helps. While complying this material I went through a few cycles of uncertainty and reassurance in what I had posted, hahaha. Too complicated.EECavazos (talk) 22:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Differences beg expanation

Could s.o. who understands the subject kindly add a paragraph for legally and tax-code challenged individuals what the differences are between private foundation, public foundation, charitable trust, endowment, support organization (any others)?? I tried to get an idea from the relevant pages but all I got was a headache. I could live happily without tax citations, just give me a general idea of who does what, in what way and what does A do differently from B, and C. Thanks.

[edit] Listing all charities

I have no objection to the removal of Bridie Goldstein Run for Children from this page; I was only trying to provide an additional link for the article, which was listed under Wikipedia:Orphaned_Articles. I do think, however, that the reference to wp:Undue was not exactly apropos. More to the point might be WP:NOT#DIR. Sincerely, and with thanks for your attention, GeorgeLouis (talk) 23:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)