Talk:Chaos (Warhammer)

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[edit] Chaos gods and Primary numbers

Is it worth noting that all of the 4 chaos gods are repersented by primary numbers? Also that khorne and slaanesh are both repersented by even numbers, when nurgle and tzzench are repersented by odd numbers?

Not really, especially considering only one of them (Nurgle) is represented by a prime number (I assume that's what you meant).... ;) --DarthBinky 14:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I believe what the poster meant was they all have their own "mystic" number. I can't remember what the numbers are atm, but I know Khornes was 8, and units/regiments that were made up of that number (or in later rules, multiples of that number) got a bonus (free Aspiring Champion in 40K for example). Darkson - BANG! 23:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] God page settup

I was wondering if we could establish a set plan for each of the gods pages. Also I was wondering if anyone would like to help me clear up Hashut's and Malal's descriptions which are just blocks of type. - Puppet Master

If you look, I recently did cleanups on the four major god articles (such as Khorne); I tried to standardize them so they all appear about the same, and follow the guidelines of WP:WAF. I would have done this for Hashut and Malal as well, but I don't have the books that give any info about them, so I wouldn't know what parts are canon and what parts are just fan speculation/theory. --DarthBinky 15:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Malal article cleaned up. (to the best of my abilities) Sixhundredandsixtysix 20:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks a lot better. I just did a little fixing to it too, mainly removing speculation, weaselisms and a section that really didn't have anything to do with Malal- not to mention that it's already discussed at Chaos (Warhammer). --DarthBinky 21:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, looks very good indeed. However I'm wondering if the link to Zuvassin shouldn't be mentioned? After all the original manuscript to the supplement "Something rotten in Kislev" featured Malal, but because of the IP-question Graeme Davis came up with Zuvassin ([1]). So, to just put the subject in context perhaps... Sixhundredandsixtysix 09:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
We should probably be discussing this over at the talk for Malal, but yeah, that does seem appropriate. I'd probably add a brief mention of that and appropriate linkage to the first paragraph of the "continue existence" section- that seems to me to be the best place for it. --DarthBinky 13:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chaos Gods and elements

Where do the relations between the Chaos Gods and elements come from? I've never seen these and they don't make much sense, as the Chaos Gods are representation of imbalanced and primal sentient emotions, rather than fundamental forces. They don't match exactly, either. For example Tzeentch favors magical fire in many spells (in both games) and is often portrayed ringed or surrounded by eldtritch flame.

If this only appears in a single source, I'd be inclined to chalk it up to inconsistency on the part of an author and remove these. --Morskittar 22:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

The only place I've ever seen resembling this concept is the Realm Of Chaos fluff book, where each of the deities of the Maurauder tribes takes up an element. This article seems to deal with the Chaos gods from a pretty exclusively Maurauder view, in fact. Also, the Chaos Gods are fundamental forces within the sentient psyche as a result of interaction between the Warhammer World and the warp. However, if one is following that Rogue Trader-esque line, the article should emphasise Tzeentch as the god of hope, which he was under archaic fluff. Of course, if one was to always to follow archaic fluff, one would also have to include stupid ideas from Rogue Trader, such as the Emperor being a combination of pre-historic shamans. - William "Fluffmaster" Peden

Thanks. I'm going to pull those as they're fairly limited (subjective point of view) and are somewhat confusing when compared to the meta-Chaos concept in both Warhammer and 40k. Also, current publications (WFRP: Realms of Sorcery and the Liber Chaotica) have reinforced the nature of the Chaos Gods as sentient aspects of unbalanced or primal mortal emotions; I think it's safe to use Rogue Trader/WFB 3rd-era sources to some extent, at least when it comes to the overal themes behind Chaos.--Morskittar 18:07, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Human Chaos Armies

There's barely any mention of them in the sections (Northmen, Beastmen, Traitor Imperial Legions, Wildmen) All of the such normal average peasant/soldier human chaos worshipper (not including Chaos Marines and Chaos Knights.

[edit] Conan and the Chaos star

... using the same 8-pointed star worn by Conan the barbarian in the movie of the same name ...

To my knowledge, the 8-pointed star of Chaos was an invention of Michael Moorcock and thus predates the Conan film. This coincides with the Symbol of Chaos article. I thus removed the line given above. --Huon 12:59, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] cleanup

I just did a pretty hefty rewrite of this article. I am giving a summary here because the edit summary is probably too short to cover it.

  • I removed a lot of extraneous info that is found elsewhere. For example, the details of the various Gods was removed, since each god has its own article and the same info is found there (where it should be). I also streamlined the info that was left to make it more encyclopedic.
  • I removed speculative comments about the origins of various things (such as links between GW's Chaos and the fiction of Moorcock and Lovecraft). While those origins are most likely true, they are ultimately unverifiable, and add little to the article.

Moorcock invented the eight pointed star as symbol of chaos. GW is using an eight pointed star as symbol of Chaos. At least this link should be left. Ossoduro 22:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

You missed the point. Like I said, it's probably true that they used that as an influence. But can you point to something in print (an interview with one of the developers, etc) that says specifically that they used that as a source? If not, it's called "unverifiable information", and does not belong here, despite the strong similarities. Cheers. --DarthBinky 05:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The Morocock influence can be vertified, they even named the god Mo'rcck after him. No one used the 8 pointed star prior to Morcock. It is stated many times that the symbol of chaos was his invention. Its use within warhammer vertifies that they have been more then influenced. The fact that they use his symbol, which is his invention, i my opinion makes it vertified information - NykylaiHellray

That's not the definition of verifiable information. If it says in a book or article in a magazine or something like that that they definitely used him as a source for that, then yes, it's VI. Otherwise it's technically speculation- it's entirely possible that they came up with their own version of the star, or that they borrowed it from someone else (who may have borrowed it from Moorcock). I've already said it twice- it's probably true that they got the idea from Moorcock, but you can't prove it, aside from the strong resemblance (which isn't enough). Besides, as I also mentioned, mentioning the (likely) sources doesn't really add anything to the article- so Moorcock was their inspiration for the star- so what? --DarthBinky 15:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
In an edition of the french white dwarf (dont remember the page nor the date sorry) answering a question about the "Tolkien Influence" (question was to sum it "Why don't you recognize the influence of the Tolkien influence in Warhammer, look at the loren forest, the name Eldar the ..." ) the staff answered that while there was for sure a tolkien influence in the edification of the Warhammer Fantasy and 40k Universe, there was also influence from other author. And if I correctly remember (translate : I can't find the issue so someone else will have to find it, normally "White dwarf" issues are translated so it should be the same newspaper in France and in England) they clearly named Moorcock as one of the major influence on the Warhammer Fantasy/40k Universe. The guy answering those question (he called himself the white dwarf, but should be a staff member from gw) probably won't be one of the people working on the Warhammer Universe background (like Andy Chambers). Esurnir 00:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I redid the tone to make it more "out-of-universe", per WP:WAF.
  • I removed a big section about the Horus Heresy, which didn't really belong here. Yes, it was caused by Chaos, but a summary of it seems out of place here. It should be mentioned in the Chaos Marines article (which it is- and that article is linked here), and then summarized in its own article (which it also is).
  • I added some more info that was missing, notably Be'lakor.
  • I removed unnecessary gamerspeak, such as an overly long discussion of how Chaos Undivided works, and how Traitor Legions relate to the gods (which should be discussed in the articles for those legions).
  • I fixed the references section, since most of the references that were there previously were simply links to other wikipedia articles, which should be avoided per WP:CITE. I had to remove the references to the old Rogue Trader books, since I didn't use those to do the rewrite, and didn't really see anything that actually referred to them.

There may have been other things, but that's the gist of it. Cheers --DarthBinky 23:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images for the Chaos gods

Is it possible to put up images of the symbols associated with the Chaos gods on their respective articles? As of now, the only image on any of these pages is of Nurgle overlooking his armies, and I personally have not heard of any official images of the gods themselves, therefore it seems as though the closest one could get would be the symbols of the Chaos gods. Secondly, would it be a good idea to have an image of Michael Moordock's chaos star on the page for Chaos itself, as I can recall it, or at least a variation of it, being used in Warhammer as a symbol of Chaos. 66.24.229.233 01:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

At the very least, here is an image of what I am referring to. (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/hordesofchaos/painting/4colors/images/mainNAV.jpg)
I doubt we can use those images due to copyrights. I'll work on vector-versions of it for Wikipedia. Syrion 19:29, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nurgle - God of Hope?

I seem to remember reading in an old White Dwarf article that Nurgle is, bizarrely, the God of Hope. Can anyone else remember this, as it seems to contradict with the description given to Nurgle here? I'll try to find out my old WD, but most of them are packed away. Darkson - BANG! 15:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kweethul

Corrected information regarding Kweethul and Nurgle. Kweethul was mainly used as an example for creating DIY chaos gods and has no (obvious) link to Nurgle or the Horned Rat. Sixhundredandsixtysix 14:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Reverted the latest edit regarding Kweethul and the Horned rat. The Horned Rat was introduced (along with the Skaven race) in the 1986 Citadel Journal. The Realm of Chaos: Lost and the Damned sourcebook was printed in 1990. Thus the concept of the Horned Rat predates Kweethul by 4 years. In my copy of Lost and the Damned there is no mention of Nurgle as a patron deity of Kweethul Gristlegut. He is used purely as an example for a DIY daemon patron, without any reference to any of the other Chaos Gods. If anyone has a copy which says differently, please state which edition and page reference and I'll gladly look it up. Sixhundredandsixtysix 08:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Malal

Please cite which edition of WFRP and on which page Malal is named as "the fifth chaos god". I can not find this in my copy. Sixhundredandsixtysix 21:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

It was in the first edition WFRP (first printing?), only a paragraph alongside khorne and Nurgle (iirc). Unfortunately, I can't give a proper reference, as my original copygot destroyed in a water leak. :( Darkson - BANG! 15:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Too bad about your copy. In my surviving copy (the first edition hardback one) from 1986 Malal is mentioned, but not that he's number 5. In fact, when I checked all my references there's no mention of "fifth" at all. I would think this is because the idea of the "four great powers of chaos" was not really introduced until 1988 with the first of the Realm of Chaos books. And Malal was (sorta) out of the game by then. In fact the only ranking I've found so far is a small passage that could place him as the first of the chaos gods. IIRC it was something like "He who came first now came last.." or similar... Sixhundredandsixtysix 07:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Where can the infromation linking Malal's removal due to copyright issues be found?Spacedwarv 21:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. From what I know the copyright issue is uncertain rather than contested. This question was raised by Graeme Davis (then at GW) and was the reason he came up with Zuvassin([2]). I'll change the wording in the article. Sixhundredandsixtysix 09:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Souls sworn to Chaos god go to godly realm for torment?

Although I know characters can swear allegiance to a ruinous power and gain power this way, I have never found any reference where it states that upon death, the soul goes to the Chaos God's realm in question for eternal torment (ie, hell). Please add a reference to where this can be found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.85.127.152 (talk) 11:06, 21 November 2007 (UTC)