Talk:Celtic music

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[edit] Discussion

The term is also rather geographically inaccurate, and is often used to refer to music which originated in regions which can not really be considered to be Celtic.

I'm not averse to the point you're making, but--for example? --LMS

Is there indeed a tradition of Cornish music distinct from English music, that is sometimes considered "Celtic"? I played with a Cornish piano accordion player in Alaska one summer.  :-) He mentioned something about this, but I have totally forgotten what he said. --LMS

In Cornwall is found traditional music very similar to the south west of Britain, particularly Devon, in music types such as reels. The sense of Cornwall as distinct from the rest of England or more distinct than most of England's counties does help contribute to the idea that music styles are also more distinct. As for whether one can truly hear a difference in style, it depends on the listener and their personal bias or experience Enzedbrit 01:10, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


I disagree, i don't think cornish music is 'very similar' to the southwest of britain, I think if you've only heard a few of the tunes (the ones that for some reason non-cornish msuicians learn which aren't massively representative) then yes, some are part of that tradition, but a fair portion are quite distinct, and stylisticly these have a different use of lyrics, keys/chords.

Cornwall certainly doesn't have as many jigs as ireland but Compared to english music a lot of it does sound quite distinct, a certain portion of the tunes are related to tunes in brittany as well (ie developed from the same root tune). Having said that some of them aren't obviously different, I rpesume that some are older tunes relating to the previous traditions (probably when there were stronger links with brittany) whilst some are more modern, especially stuff like the furry/processional tunes.

I was phoned up by somone who was actually planning to do some research for phd analysing whether there was a 'cornish style.' I don't know whether they're doing this, but It wouldn't be finished by now. One thing they did say though was that manx musicians had expressed an envy that cornwall (they said unlike the isle of mann) Did have a distinct style.

I can't ctually remember his name off the top of my head but the guy who was famous for travelling across england collecting folk music, noted that the musical landscape changed as he crossed the tamar, with english lyrics fitted to different songs, often not fitting well. It has been ypothesised that the cornish language affected te cornish tradition, with traditional lyrics to older songs being lost, and also possibly preventing some songs from spreading as much.

131.111.8.99

With regards to the 'celtic thing, then by the definition of music of celtic nations it obviously would be. As to whether they have any link way way back to actual celtic music, probablya few tunes do but then I know at least one has been traced back to italy... I don't know how much Irish music could really be traced back stylistically or whatever to real 'celtic' music.


Certainly the label celtic is used by cornish musicians, I personally would use it in the sense that it is the music of a (traditionally) celtic speaking land. Whilst some cornish tunes are fairly a bland 'british' sounding tunes ( either sounding englishy/irishy) a certain amount have a very distinct 'dark' style which sounds more similar to breton music, the reason I make this comparision is that many breton musicians will actually recognise that the tune is a mutation of a breton one (or vice versae.) Having said that you could easily play a set of cornish tunes that would not display any distinctive differences.

(WMP)

There is alas a considerable degree of musical homogeneity in this day and age. But there are musical forms which are traditionally Cornish, not the least of which is the Cornish choral tradition. sjc

But would that count as "Celtic" music? If not (e.g., if it's a very non-Celtic-sounding operatic tradition), you might mention it as a sort of counterexample: "here's a sort of traditional music that comes from a place that is called "Celtic," but the music does not really "fit with" (in what sense?) the traditional music of Ireland and Scotland... --LMS

You ask for examples about geographical inaccuracy. Its obviously hard to be precise since the term "Celtic" is a fairly loose one, especially when used as an ethnicity. If you take Scotland though for example "Celtic" only really applies to the highland populations. In the past Scotland was split into highland and lowland regions. These regions were divided by traditions and language (Gaelic in the highland, Scots, which is a strong dialect of English in the lowlands). And yet "Celtic" music comes from all over Scotland. And of course large parts of England (other than Northumbria and Cornwall which get an explicit mention). In some cases this is tracable to the population moves during the industrial revolution (the "navvies") in others not.

The point is I think that the music spread more widely and more rapidly than many other traditions. Certainly music seems to have had fewer barriers to transfer than language. In the case of music in Britain it has always flowed around the entirety of Britain because of the maritime tradition. The shipping trade was in the past, as now, a very "ethinically" mixed trade, and professional musicians were a normal part of the ships complement.

I guess what I am saying here is that the term "Celtic" in "Celtic music" has become a generic term which covers a certain style of music, and does not actually relate to other uses of the word "celtic", at least not directly. Its similar for instance to the use of the word "Champaign" which has a generic usage beyond what the region of France produces (at least in common usage, and despite what the lawyers say!).

Probably I have not worded it very well in the article. PL

I'm still waiting to learn about the geographic inaccuracies!  :-) Meanwhile, some the above content could be transferred to the article itself! If it's good enough for the /Talk page, isn't it good enough for the main page? --LMS

In the first paragraph. You state Celtic music comes in part from Scotland. Large parts of Scotland (the lowlands) are not "Celtic". Ditto Northumbria, only more so! I am not sure about the main page though. This stuff is perhaps somewhat orthogonal. PL

I see. In other words, there are exceptions to the generalizations. --LMS

The above appears to be positively ancient, but interestingly enough, I added a quote to this page from Alan Stivell and the page I got it from goes into the same issue, and concludes, like PL does, that Celtic music is a description of a genre that exists independent of the ethnic designation Celtic. It is a useful distinction and some mention should be made here, but I'm not sure how right now.

The main reason I came to the talk page at all was to invite interested parties to weigh in. I made a Wikipedia:Article series about the Music of the United Kingdom, and included music of Ireland as a part of that series (because Northern Ireland is, obviously, a part of the UK yet too similar to music from RoI for an independent article). The table declaring that this article is a part of the music of the United Kingdom series looks strange since, I think, most readers will assume the article is about RoI, which is not part of the UK. I want to make a table for a Celtic music series as well (which will solve that problem, I think), but there are issues... The following articles would be a part of this series:

The above discussion should certainly be considered. For example, the article could explain that Celtic Cornish music is extinct, moribund or only recently revived, and focus on historical music. Scottish influence on American music should maybe be included, but I dunno there's enough material for a whole article. Irish-American music redirects to music of immigrant communities in the United States (which is part of the music of the United States series) but it may be difficult to get a whole article out of Irish-American music. Even if successful, this would seem to indicate that the music of the United States series table needs to be altered so as to give the new Irish-American music article semi-top-level status as part of the "other" category (see music of the United States if you don't understand what I'm talking about -- the last item on the table is the "other" category). I don't know if that's a good idea, though. The Celtic music series could maybe be expanded with historical articles on Gaulish music or something, but I haven't a clue about that, so I'm not including it for now... What about Asturias and/or parts of Portugal -- I know those are related, at least historically.... And are the Shetlands and Hebrides distinct enough to warrant a separate article? They are sometimes mentioned as having music distinct from Scotland... I don't suppose we have any Celtic music experts/enthusiasts around, do we? (I'm only a dabbler -- probably no experts on Wikipedia or this article would be better by now) Probably just rambling to myself, Tuf-Kat 02:06, Jan 16, 2004 (UTC)

I have made a minor edit to the text of the article, simply to add the name "Asturias" at two points. --Lazloholifeld 01:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] quote

I'm tempted to remove the whole quote (I'm pretty sure I added it, so that probably wouldn't be controversial) because I every time I see it, it bugs me because he makes the absurd claim that Celts view reality as liquid. I won't remove the whole thing though, just the first part, since it doesn't add much and the quote's pretty long anyway. The second part should probably just be incorporated in our own words, but I won't push it. Tuf-Kat 02:12, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

Defining Celtic music is made that much more difficult by the fact that, for a Celt, reality is liquid (but the difficulty does not prove its non-existence). And for me, the nationality of a music is not made of absolute criteria, but by relative traits. Thus, even if it is rare in its pure state, the running pentatonic scale (re, fa, sol, la, do) is more "loved" by the Celts than by other European peoples. In many cases, Celtic music is in a state of instability between the pentatonic and the diatonic (do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, ti, do). . . .


[edit] Reality Check: No Current Music is 'Celtic'

People, there is no such thing as Celtic Music, merely music played by peoples that are wrongly called Celts. There are no longer any such people nowadays, merely their descendants. And as such, no one really knows what Celtic Music sounded like. Fergananim 7 August 2005

The descendants of Celts are also Celts.--RLent 15:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

JA: By the same token, no contemporary music is classical. Moral of the Story? Don't take any Wodin tokens. Jon Awbrey 17:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Come on, nobody is going to call a musical genre "music influenced by traditions that are presumed Celtic". --Svartalf 18:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] some help to understand what's about Celtic Music

I have followed a bit the work of Alan Stivell who is one time quoted by somebody in the discussion. If you go, for exemple, to his book "Telenn, la harpe bretonne" or to his presentations on his albums, you will have an idea more clear of the question. Why? How many people have really worked several decades studying, comparing the music of the 6 Celtic nations (that's to say " where a Celtic language is still spoken")? I know that Alan Stivell has done, and is still doing; who else?

E2

[edit] a definition of Celtic Music

There are two meanings: the first: is the same (as acceptable) as if you speak of french , european, etc. musics, a category based on any recognized group of people, without any musicologistic idea; the second: is musical (the man who made popular the idea is Alan Stivell).The idea is : there is a link between all the productions of a people (language, building, music,etc.); as there are special obvious links between the Celtic Nations (language, buidings, etc), there must be subtle links between their musics; they are not obvious at the first listen; the use of different fashions(reels, jigs, etc) is not of first importance in the identity of a music; what is important is the way the people transform these fashions, as well as how a music manage the use of defective or not defective scales, does it give importance to "tuilages", how works irish or breton "swing" for exemple;

E2

[edit] revert

I have reverted a change by User:No More POV Please because it replaces an unsourced claim presented as opinion with an unsourced claim presented as fact. Hence, I have reverted to the version that breaks only one Wikipedia rule, rather than two. Tuf-Kat 22:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The relevant rules are WP:NPOV and WP:CITE, BTW. Tuf-Kat 22:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Query about 2006 05 01 reversions

A question for Tuf-Kat: Why revert from the edits including Runrig and Capercaillie as examples of modern Celtic musicians who sing in Gaelic, while leaving more obscure examples? And why revert from the the reference to Port a beul? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.142.39.117 (talk • contribs) .

I didn't scroll down far enough. I saw an unexplained deletion and took the edit to be simple vandalism. Feel free to revert the other parts of the edit. Tuf-Kat 00:32, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A definition of Celtic Music

As I read this discussion, I observe that only a few people have seriously studied the question, but many have a position about it. To speak of it, it is necessary to have studied deeply enough the music of the (four) main Celtic nations.

Kej

I couldn't agree more. All too often "Celtic Music" is defined in terms of "Irish Music" or on occasions, "Scottish Music". I believe that this is due to the fact that there is a massive divide in knowledge between contributers from the United States and contributers from the Celtic nations. This applies to both traditional and contemporary Celtic music. Previous comments above about Runrig and Capercaillie suggest that some people are unaware that these two groups are the biggest names every to exist in the history of Scottish music!!! The fact that they may not sell albums or even appear in the USA is irrelevent to their status!
Too many people are relying on books such as "The Complete Guide to Celtic Music" by June Skinner Sawyers. This book is far from a definitive work! It is out of date and written from the perspective of a Scottish exile living in Chicago!
If our friend across the water want to see what is really going on in the Celtic nations then they should try to get over to one of the many music festival in Ireland, Scotland, Wales or Brittany. (I do regularly). I think they would return with a very diffrent view!

--maelor 10:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Useful source

http://www.standingstones.com/celtmusic.html is an interesting discussion of the uses and abuses of the term "Celtic music". It probably shouldn't go in an "External links" section as it represents a particular POV, but I'm sure it has a lot that can be referenced in the article. -- Blisco 15:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] artists

I wonder if someone more educated about this genre could make a list of prominent artists. ReverendG 06:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Please don't. Such a list would not be encyclopedic and would be almost inherent a NPOV problem. Tuf-Kat 22:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, it's the "prominent" thing that's the problem. There's no problem with a list of Celtic artists, unless it already exists (I didn't check), or might be too long? I'm not up to snuff on the list guidelines, but I don't see a problem with having such a list. Except for the "prominent" part. That would indeed have an inherent NPOV problem, as TUF-KAT said. -GlamdringCookies 23:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
If we must have a list, at least make it a separate page. But make it in some way not redundant with a category. Tuf-Kat 00:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. -GlamdringCookies 04:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flags

If one wants to add flags, there should be an explanation of the reason why they are there. One contributor feels that to say in the editing page that they are the flags of the Celtic nations, duh. So what? We could also add maps, list capitals, etc. There is no relevance to simply plonking a list of flags in the middle of an article with no mention fore or aft as to their significance. Why also Galicia? If one feels that there should be a representation in flags of the Celtic countries, then there could be a link to another article for futher clarification on what are Celtic countries. Enzedbrit 20:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Celtic instruments

I'd find it useful if someone made a list of instruments originally celtic (as opposed to modern instruments used to play music with celtic roots), and put it in the "celtic music" article instead of the "music from Brittany" article so we can have a list of instruments that are celtic, but not inclusively Breton. I'm not an expert, but here are a few I've found:

1.Celtic Harp, or lyre(?) pre-christian, pictures of it found on coins
2.crwth, first polyphonic instrument (drone strings)
3.Tin Whistle
4.Violon
5.Bagpipes Brittany(Veuze, Biniou), Highland Bagpipe
6.Bombarde (since 15th century)

Just how would you envisio the proceedings? Trouble is that while you can certainly list instruments used in Celtic music, there are few that are pan-celtic, and many that are not even specifically celtic. Just to go through your list:
the Harp. The instrument as we know it (closed triangle with pillar) seems to be a Celtic invention, and certainly did have a major place in the music of Celtic nations, until the 1700s. Honestly, nowadays, a "Celtic" harp is usually one that is smaller (25-36 strings instead of 45-47) than a classic harp, and with a solid, curved pillar instead of straight and hollow,and no pedals, half tone adjustments being done with levers... and that's the innovation of Jord Cochevelou and other modern makers, in order to make fabrication simpler.
Crwth: When was the last time one of those was used in the Celtic countries? And you'll have to get musicologists to agree on what they were exactly. There's also the fact that the word is suspiciously close to "cruit", an Irish word often used to mean "harp".
Tin Whistle. Typically Irish to be sure, but is it truly Celtic, or just Irish?
Fiddle. A very commonly used instrument indeed, but how does the fiddle used for Celtic folk music substantially differ from a classic violin?
Bagpipes. primo, while they are certainly prominent, they are not specific to Celtic music, being known and used all over Europe, and possibly beyond. Secundo, you'll notice that each area has its own kind of pipes, everry one quite different from the others. Piob Mor in Scotland, Biniou in Brittany, Uillean Pipes in Ireland, Gaita in Spain... how do you intend to extract unity from there?
Bombarde. Like the tin whistle, this one seems to be quite specific to Brittany (or are double reeds used elsewhere?)
and then you forget all the somewhat less traditional, but quite popular instruments, like the concertina and other accordions, the banjo, Irish bouzouki (borrowed from the Greek, but made with a flat bottomed rather than pear shaped body)... Honestly, I guess that the best way to approach the problem is to deal with the instruments used in each tradition in the article pertaining to it, since there are no "Celtic" instruments used everywhere. --Svartalf 11:40, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] about Geoff Wallis and Sue Wilson

You speak of these authors as specialists of music in the Celtic countries. I am curious to know where have they studied Breton music? They should have been in many festoù-noz, many festivals, many farms, many concerts to have something to say about it. 82.126.110.130 12:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] gaelic music

ussually gaelic music is incorperated with irish folk dancing and stories

[edit] Baffling phrase

"...(though some argue the traditional music of the all Nation descend from that of the North during the Reconquista)..." This is not grammatical, and I don't understand what it means. I am guessing that whoever inserted it doesn't have English as his or her first language. If it can't be put in clear language, it should be deleted. What little glimmering of meaning is there looks as if it may be inaccurate in any case. Koro Neil (talk) 13:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Be bold and change it yourself! --MatthewLiberal (talk) 19:23, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
The only change I can make is to delete it, since I'm unclear what it's saying. I'm leaving it for a bit in the hope that it can be clarified, although as I say, I suspect it's actually wrong. The editor possibly has the concept that later peoples of old Celt-occupied territories are themselves Celts (Gallic – from a Latin name meaning Gaulish – is often a semi-facetious term for French, cf classifying the English, a Germanic people, as British, a term referring in its origin to the Celtic peoples of Great Britain). The editor here has made a only few edits, all on pages with Celtic themes, none of them making much contribution to the articles, but none intended as vandalism as far as I can see. Koro Neil (talk) 03:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)