Talk:Catherine Howard

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|class=B |priority= |royalty-work-group=yes |listas=Howard, Catherine }} If Catherine Howard was "definately dead" before she was twenty-one, then how could she possibly have been born between 1520 and 1525 and died in 1548? Either the portrait comment is incorrect, or Catherine's date of birth is later.

Catherine was definitely dead before she was twenty-one because she died in the early months of 1542, not 1548. The general consensus favours a date of birth either in 1521 or 1525.Gboleyn 15:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Eh?

Why are there two identicle portraits of Catherine? The second one is only smaller, and a bit brighter. I honestly see no real difference between them, and wonder why we can't just combine the captions onto the large one (which, to me, doesn't look so pixel-y)?

"Fraser has persuasively argued that the above portrait is one of Jane Seymour's sister, Elizabeth Seymour-Cromwell. " I think someone changed the top image81.158.255.21 18:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, there's something wrong here. Both images are of the same portrait. The top image is unanimously attributed to Holbein in a Google search. There isn't enough information about the second watercolor (artist, date, etc.) to easily find another copy. I'll keep looking, but recommend we delete the 2nd Holbein image and change the article to indicate that, although the picture exists, we don't have a copy of it.--Marysunshine 22:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I did some looking around, and I think the Holbein image is actually this. (Larger image available here.) That image appears to be under copyright by the National Portrait Gallery of London, so perhaps that's why it was removed (?). Google search is distorted because most sites feed off Wikipedia's (incorrect?) article here.--Marysunshine 22:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and edited the redundant image out of the page. Both images are of uncertain origin, so I also removed the POV statements about which one was more likely a legitimate portrait of Catherine. Also, I corrected a few typos and altered the text to discuss both pictures (linking to the National Gallery image as per copyright). --Marysunshine 22:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Edited biography to remove unsourced POV/update writing style, added references, flagged two statements for citation, and added subheads to the biography. Hopefully this has improved the article a bit. I'm still vaguely stumped on the portrait issue -- both of them seem to be attributed to Holbein as "unknown, previously thought to be Catherine Howard." Oh well.--Marysunshine 01:22, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Is anyone aware of why Catherine Howard is flagged as a courtesan? It seemed an unusual way to find my way to her page.

im not sure 62.56.56.183 (talk) 11:02, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

She should not be. Yet she was a woman who had pre-marital relationships and a flirtation, or possibly an affair, during marriage. By courtesan, we would usually mean prostitute, and her extra-marital relations were certainly not for money. However, she could meet dictionary.com's definition: a prostitute or paramour, esp. one associating with noblemen or men of wealth. [Origin: 1540–50; woman of the court, deriv. of corte court] Boleyn (talk) 17:30, 23rd march 09 (UTC)

[edit] K/Catherine Howard

Given that alternate spellings were rife in this era, I propose we stick with "Catherine" (which is the name of the article) unless quoting or referencing sources that refer to her by another variant. --Marysunshine 18:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I looked her up on the official site of the British Kingdom. Her name is spelled with a K there, see http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page19.asp

As this is the official site, I think the article name as well as all the mentionings in the article itself should be changed. Please tell me whether you agree? Kimelinor 18:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

That may well be the 'official' spelling of her name, as the royals spell it. However, traditionally, historical royals don't get the luxury of an 'official' spelling - their names will be spelled as appropriate to country, language, politics, period of history, etc. Consequently, english wikipedia uses the form of name most common in the English-speaking world: which in this case, courtesy of google, is 130,000 results for "Catherine Howard", as opposed to 52,000 results for "Katherine Howard". Thus, that's the spelling English wikipedia uses. Michael Sanders 20:08, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I can imagine that it handier to use a spelling everyone expects, but isn't the role of an encyclopedia to use an 'official' term? You argue that historically the spelling was unsure, but apparently to the royals/officials it is not anymore today; they choose a K. Especially in the case of a name, the spelling is vital rather than the meaning. As this is english wikipedia: (so not American) why should the american spelling overrule the british one, although the subject of the spelling was actually britsh?
You can make sure everybody is able to reach the proper site, as a matter of fact "Katherine Howard" in wikipedia already leads directly to this site, so it can be done vice versa as well.

As for your example of google, obviously most Katherine/ Catherine Howards don't refer to the wife of Henry VIII, this is therefore in my view not sufficient reason to use a C rather than a K. Kimelinor 13:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I know I'm a year late, but I agree on its own that's convincing. The Google search only shows that "Catherine Howard" is a more common name than "Katherine Howard." It doesn't necessarily say it's a more common spelling for this particular woman. Still "Catherine Howard" queen does get more Google Scholar hits than "Katherine Howard" queen so I guess it works. I've always seen her name start with a "K" though and that's the only start we can find by her.--T. Anthony (talk) 13:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Just thought I'd throw a wrench into the discussion (and add somebody else's two cents). Antonia Fraser uses the "K" spelling for Catherine Howard in The Wives of Henry VIII (ISBN 0140132937), though purely to distinguish her from Catherine Parr. Her logic, as I recall, was as follows: "C" for Catherine of Aragon, to follow the Spanish "Catalina"; "C" for Catherine Parr, who was probably/plausably named for Catherine of Aragon; and "K" for Catherine/Katherine Howard, as I said, to reduce confusion. Then again, Catherine of Aragon, seems to have preferred the spelling "Katherine" in England, per the same source, so the point may well be moot.  — AnnaKucsma   (Talk to me!) 21:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Royals don't get 'official' terms: as the Fraser example aptly proves, historians and non-historians alike spell and render royal names any way they like, for a variety of reasons - sometimes there is a commonly accepted spelling/rendering amongst those of a same language (e.g. the wife of Charles VI of France is generally 'Isabeau of Bavaria' in English, not 'Isabella' or 'Elisabeth of Bavaria'). English wikipedia's response to any spelling/name version which is uncertain, or varied, is to adopt that form most commonly used in the English language, on the basis that most people will type in that version of the name when they search for the person (and it is considered good form to keep the article at that version, to avoid 'unsightly' redirect signs at the top of the page), and generally illustrated for convenience sake by an online search (although those can be challenged, they are accepted as a rule of thumb in all but the most ludicrous cases - e.g. if a derogatory term is more commonly used than the proper name - since the person is considered notable enough to be the subject of search engine 'hits' rather than a non-notable namesake; in the case of two notables sharing the same name, I believe more complex searches are practised).
And to clarify: when I refer to this as 'English wikipedia', I mean of course 'English language wikipedia' - i.e. the version which serves anyone who can read and write English, be they in 'England', America, another English-speaking country, or simply a polyglot. And, to my knowledge, there is no straightforward American/English spelling of 'Catherine/Katherine Howard' (I suppose 'Kathryn' is a particularly American spelling, but have never seen any references to 'Kathryn Howard'): both spellings are used by both. It's just that 'Catherine Howard' is the most common formulation, and thus the article title. Michael Sanders 22:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


I understand your point, and although I do not agree entirely, I think this is definately not a case of a clear answer and therefore subject to endless discussion. My suggestion would be, keep the name of the article as it is, but move the name reference up from the notes to the end of the introduction in order te clarify that in many books, musea and 'official' royal documents she is -now- spelled with a K.

Does anyone have any objections to that? Kimelinor 06:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I moved the note up for that purpose. If you want to add anything to that, do so by all means. Michael Sanders 15:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I think K is much more accurate- Chloe2kaii7

[edit] Henry Mannox

A knowleadgable editor should look at the article Henry Mannox and do something with it (merge it here probally, or prod for deletion). The fact that he is not mentioned in this article conserns me. Jon513 16:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the suggestion to merge the articles, unless there is an editor with sufficient information to produce a proper article about Henry Mannox Haemo 03:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did Henry sign the bill of attainder?

The bill of attainder article claims that Henry VIII delegated royal assent in this case, to avoid having to sign personally. This article claims that he did sign personally. Which is correct? here is a citation which claims not.

Henry did not sign it personally. The Council affixed his seal and the declaration 'Le roy le veut' ('the King wills it') with his permission. User:Gboleyn

[edit] Portrait

I am sure I read somewhere that the portrait of Catherine Howard, given on this page, had in fact been identified to be of Anne Parr, and that as such no authentic portrait of Catherine Howard existed. Has anyone else heard this? Frickeg 05:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Do we mean Catherine Parr. It is certainly a Queen, wearing an identifiable royal jewel, & might just have been painted in the 4 mths between Parr's mariage in 1543 & Holbein's death. But I've never heard Parr suggested, & the Royal Collection website entry doesn't mention this idea. Johnbod (talk) 16:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
No, not Catherine - her sister Anne. I have a feeling that it was in one of David Starkey's books. Frickeg (talk) 02:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Weight

I changed the wording in the Marriage section, about Henry's weight, slightly. It read as too definite before. Scholars are only estimating Henry's girth at the time based on portraits and suits of armor he is known to have worn from the time period. --Hiraeth 01:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Her last words were, "I die a Queen, but I would rather have died the wife of Culpepper."

What is the primary source supporting this statement? If memory serves me this alleged quote came from a pamphlet written by a Spanish diplomat or agent who was very critical of Henry VIII and who was not himself present at the execution. The pamphlet was written and circulated as part of a smear-campaign against the king and attempted to romanticise Catherine's relationship with Culpepper with Henry playing the part of the ogre ruining the life and love of two young people.

If I remeber correctly none of the true eyewitness-accounts of the people present at the execution mention Catherine saying anything like that. Unfortunately I don't rememeber the name of the Spanish diplomat but I shall endeavour to find it and the text of the pamphlet and something on the discussion about its veracity. Perhaps someone else who knows what I'm talking about can corroborate if, indeed, I am right.

If I am, I feel that the quote should be removed or that it should state clearly that it is uncertain whether she said it or not. Nothingbutmeat 12:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake in name

Has Katherine / Katherine. I'll amend to Catherine / Katherine, per our article name. --Dweller 12:03, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia removed

It not relevant to the article whom is a distant relation to Catharine. Every monarch page would be full of people's names if this mattered. Trivia sections are also, in general, not necessary. If the information is useful it can go on that person's page. 24.159.242.254 (talk) 02:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Another name error

Why the hell is there a period at the end of the article? Shouldn't the article be at Catherine Howard, rather than a redirect to Catherine Howard.?  — AnnaKucsma  Speak! 18:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)