Talk:Catalan language/Archive 2

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Contents

Carche

I'd like to say that Catalan is not spoken in the Carche area. I have been there and checked it by myself. mabuimo (13 Jan 2006) BTW, this article, among others is 100% political. I won't do further edition on it but I'd like that this comment stays here for the incoming users. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mabuimo (talk • contribs) 16 Jan 2006. It is not widely spoken anymore, but it IS spoken. 62.43.177.47 16 June 2006

serbo-croatian formula

Hi Reading all these language arguments, very familliar to me, I would just add that the Serbo-croatian formula ( more croatian than serbian ) of fighting about the name of the same language (serbocroatian), and looking for non-existing differences in it, just to fake it "different" eg.( cro vs serb ), is spreading out into western Mediterraneans ( catalons vs valencians ). Maybe it's a natural thing for all mediterraneans, and it will go on until all they realize that having a same language, with variety of dialects is a precious thing, something they need to be proud of and deeply respect it.. Cheers; —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.80.118.62 (talk • contribs) 18 Jan 2006.

More Examples

Could someone add a Catalan version of the Lord's Prayer for comparison, as is done for other languages? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.42.159.11 (talk • contribs) 12 Feb 2006.

Lord's Prayer:

Pare nostre, qui esteu en el cel,

sigui santificat el vostre nom; vingui a nosaltres el vostre regne; faci´s la vostra voluntat, així en la terra com en el cel. El nostre pa de cada día doneu-nos avui; i perdoneunos les nostres culpes, així com nosaltres perdonem els nostres deutors; i no permeteu que nosaltres caiguem en la temptació, ans deslliureunos del mal.

Amén!

Changing view of Catalan

This anonymous edit cut the following:

The concept of a "linguistic Catalan diasystem" was developed at the beginning of the 20th century as part of Catalan nationalist discourse; prior to that, Catalan was generally considered a dialect of Occitan and was included in the "linguistic Romanic-Occitanian diasystem". This newer "linguistic Catalan diasystem" would incorporate Valencian into the Catalan system, instead of both Catalan and Valencian being considered as dialects under the former "Romantic-Occitanian diasystem." This system brings Catalan nationalism the benefit of an increase in the official number of Catalan speakers. The term "Western Catalan" ("catalá occidental") was developed as part of this discourse, based on some lexical and phonetic similarities that the speech of the zone of Lleida (Lérida) had with that of Valencia.

While I don't necessarily like the political spin of the paragraph, I believe that what it said was basically accurate and should be restored (although reworded in a way that is less hostile to Catalan nationalism: it's not as if this was a Catalan nationalist reaction against scientific neutrality: most linguists today would say it was a corrective in terms of an earlier anti-Catalan framing. So I'd end up with something like:

The concept of a "linguistic Catalan diasystem" was developed at the beginning of the 20th century as linguists, doubtless influenced by rising Catalan nationalism, began to distinguish Catalan more firmly from Occitan. Prior to that, Catalan and Valencian were generally considered dialects of Occitan, included in the "linguistic Romanic-Occitanian diasystem". The term "Western Catalan" ("catalá occidental") was developed as part of this discourse, based on some lexical and phonetic similarities that the speech of the zone of Lleida (Lérida) had with that of Valencia.

Unless someone objects in the next few days, I'll restore this modified version of the paragraph to the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a linguist, but I suggest to supress any political references. So:

The concept of a "linguistic Catalan diasystem" was developed at the beginning of the 20th century as linguists began to distinguish Catalan more firmly from Occitan. Prior to that, Catalan and Valencian were generally considered dialects of Occitan, included in the "linguistic Romanic-Occitanian diasystem". The term "Western Catalan" ("catalá occidental") is based on the lexical and phonetic similarities that the speech of the zone of Lleida (Lérida) had with that of Valencia.

--Joan sense nick 15:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Besides it, I have to say that I talk normally in catalan/valencian to my Valencian and Balearic friends (just little diferences, similar to when I talk spanish with a latinamerican friend). But I've been in Val d'Aran and I can't understand Occitan language. --Joan sense nick 15:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually Gascon has enough personality that some class it apart of the rest of Occitan. --Error 00:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted that text. It is still nnpov--SMP - talk page (en) - talk page (ca) 18:16, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

English pronunciation

Is it needed to include the English IPA transcription?? It is normal to include the native, not the English.--SMP - talk page (en) - talk page (ca) 17:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it is necessary, as it's something there is considerable confusion about (amongst both native and non-native English speakers) - and something many may visit the article specifically for.
I've just changed it: the general English pronunciation is Cátalan /ˈka.təˌlan/. Some use instead the pronunciation Catalán /ˌka.təˈlan/, which is influenced by the Catalan word. (I've also heard /ˈka.tə.lən/ amongst non-native English speakers.) The OED has ˈkætəlæn (with no [] or // ). kieron 00:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Formentera

If they have dialects at Ibiza, Mallorca, and Menorca, how about Formentera? De mortuis... 20:05, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Eivissenc dialect is spoken in Eivissa and Formentera.--SMP - talk page (en) - talk page (ca) 14:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Comparisons to other regional-national dialects/languages/varieties/you-get-the-point

Off-hand comments comparing the situation of Catalan-Valencian-Occitan with other quite different realities, e.g. those of Serbo-Croatian and of "Canadian" French vs. Metropolitan French, do not help. It is best to view the Catalan-Occitan-Valencian reality as a case study, which in fact is what we linguists working in dialectology or sociolinguistics and language sociology tend to do. It would be great to have (on this talk page) much more discussion about these naming/categorization difficulties. Moreover, it would be informative to clarify terminology concerning dialect/variation/variety/variant. Anyone interested?

For example, I've been working on major re-writes and additions to Quebec French, Canadian French, and Joual. I invite you to read them: the article on Canadian French because the term is a misnomer, and the article on Quebec French due to the utter confusion connected to it. Note that in Quebec French, the section on social perception needs a complete re-write and as it stands, should not be considered reliable. After you read Canadian French, you'll understand why, in this article on Catalan, I changed the false analogy Quebec Fr. vs. Metropolitan Fr. to Acadian French vs. Quebec French. In fact, I suggest eventually avoiding the comparison altogether given the many factors the making most comparisons misleading. CJ Withers 12:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Just a correction. Please, note:
They forked centuries ago and ceased to be an important communication interchange. See Treaty of Corbeil. In different historical contexts, they both would be presently an only language.
Because of the lack of an effective or successful standardization and French assimilation or diglossy, Occitan has indeed more dialectal diversity in its languedocien group than the whole Catalan language domain.
Best regards, Toniher 03:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
You mean hyper-correction. I never wrote nor implied they were the same language, or of the same dialect continuum, for that matter. Please read more thoroughly: the key words are "situation" and "reality". Also, the original and English-language term is diglossia. CJ Withers 04:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

On 15:44, 12 June 2006, some anonymous under the IP 80.36.189.123 removed comparisons between Valencian/Catalan vs. American English/English English giving the reason "Rv to avoid continous spam against Valencia community". Such comparisons are quite obviously not "spam againsy Valencia community", but just an example to state that Catalan is, like English, a multi-centric language. I have restored and explained better the comparison in hopes that it doesn't get reverted again in the same way, and that this doesn't turn into an edit war. Also, they reverted some other changes I had made: I had removed a comparison between Catalan/Valencian and Spanish/Portuguese because the comparison stated that Portuguese and Spanish are mutually intelligible, which they are not - they are supposed to have been the same language centuries ago, but that relationship would be closer to that of Catalan (and Valencian) with Occitan, although there seems to be no evidence whatsoever other than linguistic characteristics that Catalan and Occitan have ever been the same language. I've restored the changes I made. - 62.43.177.47

Section about being taught in many universities in North America & Europe

I'm not aware of it being taught in any major university in the US, it certaintely wasn't at the university I attended (at least when I attended in the 1990s). So I'd like examples of universities that teach it in the US. Thanks. Jon 18:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

hi jon. this map shows just those universities around the world where there is a catalan lector sent via the institut ramon llull (an official organisation to promote the catalan language outside catalonia)
http://www.llull.cat/llull/estatic/eng/quisom/lectorats-mapa.shtm
this is by no means all of the universities where catalan is taught (my university, for example, had valencian lectors, which it organised itself without going through any third-party organisation such as the institut ramon llull). i remember a more complete list of universities somewhere, so i'll see if i can find it.
teaching catalan abroad has really taken off in the last few years, so maybe if you were at university in the 90s you would have missed the phenomenon, i dunno. also, at the moment, catalan is usually taught within the spanish department as an optional course, rather than being a major/minor in its own right.
kieron 12:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Dispute / Merge

This is one of the most disputed pages I've run across in months. The issue of whether Catalan and Valencian are the same or are two variants of a "Catalan-Valencian" (cf. Portugese-Galician) is entirely unsettled. Or more accurately I should say unsettled here - no one is citing references on this topic, and this entire Talk page was virtually unusable until I restructured it, because it was filled with pages and pages of ad-hominem and political flamewars, largely relating in one way or another to this issue. I somehow doubt that linguists and the reference works they have published are in anywhere near as much confusion and disagreement on this issue as the posters on this Talk page and editors of this Article are. Hit the books, cite the facts, cite the prevailing theories, and end the dispute.

So, I'm flagging this with a Disputed template, and doing the same over at Valencian. If the dispute is resolved on the side of them being the same language, then the very first thing that should happen is a Merge template should be added to both, and folks who care to edit these articles in depth need to work together on a combined version, and redirect things appropriately. Or something along those lines. Perhaps there should instead be a large article on Catalan-Valencian or Valencian-Catalan, and smaller articles on each of them separately that go into what makes the (alleged) dialects different from each other.

I'm not even going to touch the question whether Catalan is really a dialect of Occitan!! The fact that that possibility has been raised here, with some fervor, is more than sufficient evidence that the facts of this article are truly disputed. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 17:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The part about English English and American English shows pretty much all the facts you need to discern Catalan and Valencian as a single language. Even under the ortography and rules of those who claim Valencian to be different, there's no substantial morphological or syntactic differences between the two - just phonology and some lexic, but, as I said, there's more divergence between American English and English English; the issue is entirely a political one, and as such it shouldn't be considered in an article about linguistics. As for Occitan, morphology IS different; syntax is quite different although it's similar to that of Northern Catalan; phonology is quite different, although you can establish a link to that of Catalan - but both evolved in separate ways, which is evidenced by different diphtongs which don't quite match always; the lexic is quite different as well, although with lots of cognate words. Although it's not quite the same, claiming that Occitan is the same language as Catalan is more or less like claiming that German and Dutch are the same language, or that Scots is English: you could justify it due to history, but any linguist will disagree.
So this is more a "cite sources" situation than a "factual accuracy" one, actually. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12 July 2006 (talk • contribs) .
Oh, as well, linking "Catalan-Valencian" to "Portuguese-Galician" is really unfortunate: while Portuguese-Galician is another case of politics meddling in linguistic fact, there are some non-political reasons you could use to claim Galician as a language evolved from an earlier Portuguese-Galician, although they are not all that important and, thus, many linguists consider both the same. But Valencian is essentially the same as North-Western Catalan, which some differences that, for example, a non-native speaker wouldn't really discern (or even a native speaker - it is not unusual for Valencians to be mistaken as people from Lleida when they travel to Barcelona. Generally, hearing a phrase or two is usually not enough to tell North-Western Catalan apart from Valencian, although obviously differences important enough to class them as separate dialects DO exist.) Really, this issue is quite simply a political one and I think the "factual accuracy" tag should be removed in favour of a "cite sources" one. Plus it has been some months since the last time there was fighting over the contents of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12 July 2006 (talk • contribs) .
I would argue that the Valencian language is not a separate language, but is a valid article topic. This is exactly parallel to Moldovan language vs. Romanian. The common name (in English) of the language is Catalan; the topic here should be the claims that Valencian is a separate language (I think they are wrong, but they are real) and the politics behind the use of the name "Valencian" for that language by the Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua, whose official stance is that there is only one language, but it's proper name is valencià. - Jmabel | Talk 06:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
(I am the anonymous who frequently posts at this page and made the two comments previous to Jmabel's.) I don't think the Valencian article should be deleted since, after all, it's one of the main dialectal blocks of Catalan and merits an article. However, it shouldn't have a page as a "Valencian language"; the theories about Valencian as separate from Catalan aren't supported by linguists: it is true that they should be mentioned, but they already are, which means that there's no fighting AT ALL over the articles. If nobody objects, I'll remove the disputed tag after a few days and replace it with a "cite sources" one. Also, perhaps we should rename this article to "Catalan-Valencian Language" to avoid this kind of fights...

Just to let you know there's still places containing "polaco"

Hello I came here from slashdot. Probably you already know this, but there are still some places throughout the text that contais the word polaco, or somesuch, where I would venture it should be català or catalan... My best regards Angelo

Mess of a paragraph

The following paragraph is a mess:

Valencian has often been seen as a dialect of Catalan due to their mutual intelligibility, and because it was the Catalan who brought their language there when they conquered the land of Valencia (although some people argue that Valencian didn't evolve from North-Western Catalan at all. For more information on Valencian, its relationship to Catalan according to politicians and linguists and its origins according to the same people, refer to the article on Valencian). However, the issue of language versus dialect is as much a matter of politics as of linguistics. By the criterion of mutual intelligibility, Valencian and other varieties of Catalan are dialects of a single language; but according to this criterion, Norwegian and Danish are dialects of the same language. A language is defined by several factors, political ones among others.

It argues with itself ("although", "however"). It gives a verbose and polemical redirect to another article. I think the problems are mostly in the first half; everything from the "however" on looks OK to me. Could someone who knows this topic better than me please try to disentangle the rival theories and write this in an NPOV manner, attributing theories, rather than an argument of the Wikipedia narrative voice with itself? That is who says that Catalans brought the language to Valencia? Who says Valencian evolved independently? - Jmabel | Talk 06:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

This paragraph is no mess. It points out that Valencian is often seen as a variant of Catalan, mainly by linguists, but that other people... SOME people, mainly politicians, think otherwise. On the other hand, the part after "However" strikes me as quite N-NPOV - it kind of implies that the unity of Catalan is a political matter (when, quite the contrary, it's the supposed independence of Valencian which is.)
So the problem is that the paragraph does not cite sources. But I don't think the redaction is not fine (although I'm biased, because I wrote the although part, in an attempt to avoid pro-Blavero vandalism. It should be noted that, before I edited it, the paragraph was quite clearly N-NPOV in favour of Valencian as a different language, or at least I perceived so.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.43.177.158 (talk • contribs) 21 July 2006.

Edit I'd appreciate having explained

The following edit was made: "Historically, the perceived status of Valencian as a 'dialect of Catalan' has had important political implicationsincluding Catalan nationalism and the idea of the Països catalans or 'Catalan countries.'" The stricken portion strikes me as being on the mark. Am I missing something? - Jmabel | Talk 06:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

It is more or less right, but it is
a) Overtly simplistic. There are lots of other factors in Catalan nationalism and the concept of Catalan Countries, such as unfairness on the Spanish state, history, etc. It should be noted that in the period of history that the "Catalan Countries" concept more or less takes its map from, Valencia had more economic weight than Catalonia, so the phrase is not that good at all, as it kind of has the underlying meaning that the Catalan Countries idea puts Valencia as subordinate to Catalonia; and the same thing linguistically.
b) Misguiding. Valencian as a separate language is a political concept; Valencian as Catalan is a concept supported by linguists. The paragraph kind of makes readers believe that Valencian as a dialect of Catalan is a political concept associated to Catalan Nationalism, which it is not.
I think the Valencian/Catalan sections need a complete rewrite. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.43.177.158 (talk • contribs) 21 July 2006.

Confusing sentence

'There are verbal forms which are not frequently used in either dialect - "aní"/"vaig anar", just like "I advise that he come"/"I advise him to come".' I simply do not understand what is being said here.

Also, am I right in understanding that all the examples in this section are Catalan first, Valencian second? If so, we should say so; if they are not all in the same order, we should change that to something consistent and say so. - Jmabel | Talk 06:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

It is confusing due to poor English, mainly. What it means is that "There are verbal forms unfrequent in one of the dialects - just as American English uses the subjuntive and English English normally does not, some variants of Valencian use the synthetic past (aní) as opposed to the more widespread use of the periphastic one (vaig anar) in Catalan." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.43.177.158 (talk • contribs) 21 July 2006.

Total rewrite of the Valencian section

(I'm the anonymous who frequently posts at this page.) Since there are no disputes about the rest of the page, and the main complaints are that nobody cites their sources and that the Valencian section is polemical and unclear for a number of reasons (mainly clashing views which are not separated and thus result in unclear and half-POV statements), I've removed the disputed tag from the article, but have added a cite sources one and a Complete Rewrite one to the Valencian section, which I think is much needed. I'll try to work on the rewrite one of these days, but, for the time being, I think it's better to leave things this way. If you disagree, please say so! I wouldn't like to be making polemical choices! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sputnikpanicpuppet (talk • contribs) 21 July 2006.

I look forward to seeing a rewrite of this section, laying out the various views in the matter, properly cited. - Jmabel | Talk 06:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Revert

I have reverted the last changes made to the page. Essentially, they introduce wrong info (the dialects are named "Barceloní" and "Tarragoní", and not "Barcelonès" or "Tarragonès", for example); they removed the needed rewrite and cite sources tags without fixing the problems; they remove important information like the relationship between Standard Catalan and other dialects; they restore the comparison with Canadian/Metropolitan French which has been argued against before; the only thing they might be right about is on the Scandinavian language comparison, but I'm not sure (I can't speak any Scandinavian language...) So, for now, I'll revert the changes --Sputnikpanicpuppet 02:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

language as linguistics definition

  • "Any serious linguist and all universities teaching romance languages consider those
  • "linguistics variants to be part of the same language (sort of Canadian French vs French of France)

and many other possible quotations

The definitions of language vs. dialect, despite the common belief, is not a linguistic one. Linguistics finds in different systems (and, actually, the system used by every person is different) similar features called isoglosses. Linguistic classification is isogloss map, that shows similarity and differences in distinct regions. But there is no rool or claim, that X common isoglosses define a language, while Y define a dialect. These are already defined - historically, politically and sociologically. In some cases many very different systems are called a language (German, Arabic), and are divided into dialects (Arabic - Syrian, Algerian, Lebanese etc.). In other cases very similar systems defined as different languages (Dutch - Flemish). So, linguists tell "language is a dialect with flag and navy" Therefore, it is not a linguistic discussion! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.228.127.127 (talk • contribs) 10 September 2006.

English words of Catalan origin

This section is rather silly. If you follow the links to "barracks", "mayonnaise" and "cul-de-sac", you learn these words are derived from French (well, barracks could have been derived from Italian or Spanish as well). Allioli definitely is a Catalan/Valencian word, but in English "aioli" is commonly used, which is the French version on allioli. Sorry to say, but we didn't influence the Enlish langue in any way that I know of. 69.181.148.6 05:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Most English words come from French. But in a great many cases they come from other sources *via* French. This is certainly the case with 'mayonnaise,' and may well be with the other two examples you cited. It is those articles, rather than this one, which need to be changed. kieron 23:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Joan Corominas considers barraca "primitively Catalan, of unknown origin, maybe pre-Roman". Around the war of the Thirty Years French barraque (now baraque) passes to the rest of European languages.
Neither aioli nor allioli are originally French. The word is either Catalan or Occitan.
--Error 18:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
According to the OED, none of that is definitive. "Barrack" is "of uncertain origin" but that it "occurs early in [Castillian] and Catalan", while "aïoli" is of French origin - the etymology given is: [Fr. aïoli (Trésor, 1744), f. mod.Pr. aioli, f. ai (F. ail) garlic + oli (F. huile) oil.] Gromitjc 20:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Not even Mayonaise gets credited unequivocally to Catalan in the OED:
 Several etymologies have been suggested. Like numerous dictionaries, N.E.D. (1906) describes it as 
 ‘prob. feminine of mahonnais of Port Mahon, capital of Minorca, taken by the duc de Richelieu in 1756’, 
 but the lateness of the word in French would argue against this, as would perh. also the spelling 
 mayonnaise rather than mahonnaise already in the earliest attestation.
 Bayonnaise (feminine of bayonnais < the name of the French town of Bayonne + -ais -ESE) is attested 
 in the same meaning only two years later, and mayonnaise is freq. explained as a corruption of this 
 word, as in the following early discussion (giving the earliest examples of the form mahonnaise and 
 of bayonnaise in this sense):
 1808 G. DE LA REYNIÈRE Man. des amphitryons II. vi. 211 Les puristes, en cuisine, ne sont pas d'accord sur 
 la dénomination de ces sortes de ragoûts; les uns disent mayonnaise, d'autres mahonnaise, et d'autres 
 bayonnaise. Le premier de ces mots n'est pas français; et le second indique une ville où rien n'est renommé 
 pour la bonne chère; c'est ce qui fait que nous nous sommes décidés pour bayonnaise, dont l'étymologie est 
 dans le nom d'une ville qui renferme beaucoup de Gourmands inventeurs, et qui, de plus, donne naissance 
 chaque année aux meilleurs jambons de l'Europe.
 However, the French chef M. A. Carême (1784-1833) preferred the spelling magnonnaise and an etymology 
 from French manier to handle (see MANNER n.), explained as referring to the method of preparation of the 
 sauce.] "

--Philbarker 16:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Another word that comes from catalan is "paper". Its origin is certainly the latin "papirus", but it went into english through catalan.

Catalan and Spanish

Hello I was interested in someone explaining how inteligable Catalan is to Spanish. There's a lot about Valecian and Catalan, but I want to know how a castillian speaker would go listening in on a conversation in Catalan. Can a Spanish speaker understand Catalan literature? I have heard conflicting statements. A paragraph dealing with Catalan's similarities with other languages would be really interesting. I hope someone can either answer my question and perhaps add a section to the page. 58.169.157.145 14:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Anechdotically, I was told that spoken Portuguese and Catalan are more mutually intelligible than Catalan and Spanish. But there is a difference between Brazilian and European Portuguese. The reason is the similarity of the vowel systems. --Error 18:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
If you consider a castilian speaker with no previous exposure to catalan, not knowing other languages, listening to a speech in catalan, given slowly and clearly, he will understand some random words, but will not get anything of what is being said.
How close is it?
Genetically, so to speak, the closest languages to Spanish are:
  • (1) the Ladino language, which could perfectly be considered part of a Spanish diasystem;
  • (2) the Asturian language (Eastern varieties being closer than Western ones); Z
  • (3) the Galician-Portuguese diasystem (the Galician language being closer than the Portuguese one);
  • (4) the Aragonese language (Western varieties being closer than Eastern ones);
  • (5) and then, the 5th closest would probably be Catalan, Western varieties (NW Catalan and Valencian) being apparently a little closer, and some Eastern varieties (Majorcan and particularly Algherese, in Sardinia, Italy) being not so close. These last two, particularly the last one, are often hard to understand even for some speakers of the language.Occitan, by the way, is the closest language to Catalan (the 6th closest to Spanish). A speaker of Spanish would probably understand quite a lot of a written text in Catalan, but listening comprehension is a bit more complicated (it all depends too on which Catalan variety is being spoken, the speed and so on). Similar to what will happen to him/her with Portuguese or perhaps a bit more complicated. Sometimes people have referred to Catalan as somewhere between Spanish and French (actually, it is between Occitan and Aragonese, but the average person hasn't ever heard about those minoritarian languages). This ressemblance is due to the fact that many words are similar and also because of a common impression in Spanish speakers that Catalan, just like French, "cuts" final vowels (e.g., Spanish mano 'hand' is mà in Catalan, main in French; Spanish justo is just both in Catalan and French). All this said, intelligibility is always a personal thing. A speaker of Spanish who also knows French or perhaps Italian would understand Catalan much easily, for example. --Info 20:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Catalan is very diferent from castillan, for example, castililan has only 5 vowel sounds, and catalan has 8 sounds, and "j" or "g" has a diferent sound in catalan or castililan, in castilian "g" or "j" are like the english "h", and in catalan are like the english "j". This are some of the differences between the two languages, of course, if you see a dictionary, you will find most of the words are diferent, like for exemple english to german. Coronellian 18:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought "j" in Catalan was pronounced [ʒ], like in Portuguese or in French. That is not the same pronunciation of English "j", which is pronounced [dʒ] instead. 161.24.19.82 17:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Coronellian, saying that spanish to catalan is the same as english to german is quite wrong. An average Castilian speaker with no previous exposure to Catalan can almost understand written Catalan as for spoken Catalan it would take like 2-3 weeks. Catalan (or Valencian) spoken in Valencia is even easier since the accent is softer. There is about 10% of words that are completely different but the rest are very close (you can try some words in this Catalan dictionary http://www.grec.net/home/cel/dicc.htm). I love Catalan but please don't exaggerate and let's keep the facts straight.

Much removed

I would hope that someone who knows more about this topic than I would look closely through the changes of the last few weeks. It seems to me that a lot I would consider correct has simply been removed from the article. Among other things, the following paragraph was removed; insofar as it touches on matters I know about, it seems to me to have been entirely correct (if perhaps not ideally worded), and I don't see any equivalent in the present article.

Standard Catalan, as regulated by the IEC, centres on the speech of the educated classes of Barcelona, and so is closest to Central Catalan; however, not all of the features of Barcelonese speech can be considered standard, as there are lots of traditional dialectal traits and Castillian influence in that area. Aditionally, most important dialectal traits of other dialects are also considered standard. The orthography used to write Standard Catalan (and basically any Catalan text) is closest to Valencian pronunciation, although some instances of grave accented <è> correspond to Central Catalan. There is also a second standard form of the language, Valencian (valencià), regulated by the AVL. The Valencian standard is very close to IEC's but adds features characteristic of Western Catalan.

- Jmabel | Talk 05:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

It's now been restored. - Jmabel | Talk 08:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Incoherent "transition"

"…and is often erroneously thought of as a sort of "transitory" language between the Catalan and Gallic languages…" I'm reminded of the Neil Young line "like a cross of himself and a fox". How can it be thought of (erroneously or otherwise) as transitory (presumably "transitional") beteen itself and something else? - Jmabel | Talk 21:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Number of speakers

It states 12 million speakers in the introduction, but when sources are added it goes down to 10.4 and the infobox says more than 7.5, while they are not technically contradicting, I think more coherent data could be given. Anyone? Knights who say ni 23:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

People who understand Catalan in Catalonia (and Andorra) are often counted as potential speakers of the language. While that is not so in the other Catalan-speaking territories (for lack of officiality or strict implementation of it), sometimes potential speakers include all or almost of all the people living in a Catalan-speaking territory. That's why, when figures need being high, potential speakers are used. Other language statistics (including some about English and Spanish) have a tendency to do so. In my opinion, only people who can actually speak the language, in one way or another, should be included. Then, my guess is that Catalan is spoken (as a mother tongue or a second language) by more than 8 million people, perhaps a bit more than 8,5. I'd say 10 millions is really too much, unless we include those who understand it perfectly and would only dare say something in Catalan on certain occasions. I guess the reason they say 12 in the article is because they say spoken or understood, while the table accounts for the number of total speakers and says more than 7,5. Yes, definitely it's more than 7,5 and more than 8 too, but more recent census should be done in order to offer accurate data, specially since immigration in the past 10 years has increased the population in those territories. Info 08:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.8.244.126 (talk • contribs).