Talk:Cappuccino

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Contents

[edit] Origin of Cappuccino in Austria

There is a continuos vandalism on the chapter on the origin of cappuccino. For sure cappuccino is a coffee beverage that came out of Italy, but the roots are in the viennese 'kapuziner', and this was earlier thoroughlly well written in the intro. Someone also keeps retelling the old Starbucks tale of cappuccino resembling the tonsur of the cappuccino monks (their bold head), when it is elementary knowledge that cappuccino fires far back than the age of steamed milk. The capucin robes gave name not only to the coffee, but in the first half of the 19th century was also used as a term clare a color on a number of other things. An academic approach to the stuff you write will ensure an in deapth insight. John, Oslo.

[edit] I have...

replaced the link to my Cappuccino 'howto'. This link had been on the page for over six months and generates alot of hits and overwhelmingly positive feedback (see the article). IMHO there was no reason to remove a popular and relevent link that was well established on the page. D.

I felt it necessary to remove the adjective 'sophisticated' from "...part of the new sophisticated coffee bar chains (notably Starbucks)." Coffee made with an espresso machine may be relatively new in the US, the novelty of which perhaps creates the illusion of sophistication, but the rest of the world sees Starbucks as just another american fast food franchise, like McDonalds. A 'sophisticated' coffee bar would not serve any kind of coffee in paper buckets. peterbdvp

peterbdvp, insult America all you want, this fact remains: the best espresso in the world is produced at Espresso Vivace in Seattle, WA, USA, by David Schomer who knows more about espresso than anyone in the world. Don'tjyguvyghis genius. You cannot name a better espresso joint, in Italy, or anywhere... if you do, I will move there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.107.130 (talk) 05:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

A little comment: when u say espresso, u don't mean a particular kind of coffee bean, neither a coffee machine; and neither a new international coffee culture; espresso coffee simple means "the italian way to taste coffee". Italians invented and devoloped espresso for own culture, they drink (and drunk) only espresso coffee (no filter coffee at all). The rest of the world joined and appreciated this espresso culture only about 70 years later. It's really difficult to imagine that americans know the "italian way to make and taste coffe" better than italians themself. Espresso is a feeling, not only a simple technical ability. The perfect cup is what the custom likes, not what a book says. Does David Shomer know this? --Fm974ge (talk) 21:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

it does not mean the hat but ... sorry i cant find my dictionary. if someone has a dictionary see 'cappuccio' and then add small in it. not the hat but the thing you can have on the coat or on a shirt that you can put to cover your head. the franciscans had those on their costumes...

"It has to be noted that the word has in Italy less elegant meanings too." Such as? Jeronimo

--Gianfranco

What's the "latte art" remark doing here? Some barista with an ego? All that goes on top of a cappuccino is foam. No rosettes on this beverage. I'm not deleting, because, well, because I mostly don't take it on myself to delete on trivia, but I'd appreciate if the author of that paragraph would take it back out. Jmabel 03:42, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'm italian but I've never heard about this meaning. In Italy the condom has other different names, and the most similar is 'cappuccio', but cappuccino is only referred to the beverage. Maybe it could be regional or dialect slang. --munehiro 20:43, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm also italian. The English word is hood. So Cappuccino is literally "small hood". I never heard the word used for condom anywhere in Italy (I took the liberty to remove the reference). Cappuccino art actually exists: my barista tries to match what he "paints" on top of my cappuccino every morning with what he thinks my mood is (flowers, hearts...) 14:34, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Should the French phrase be à la capucin, as in the text, or à la capuchin, as I would have thought? Just wondering. Gareth Hughes 01:51, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Good thought. I set my Google preferences to "French only" and searched "capucin (32,600 hits) and "capuchin" (1,870 hits). --Wetman 02:58, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Wetman! I suppose I could have done that myself — it was just a little niggling doubt! Gareth Hughes 16:03, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cinnamon?

In a recent discussion with an Italian friend (who worked in a café, in Italy) the question of how to make a Cappuccino arose. He said that Cinnamon in a (or sprinkled on top of a) Cappuccino was a American/European invention that (according to him) didnt exist in Italy. Ive always been under the impression that a Cappuccino contained Cinnamon. Im well aware of that there may be diffrent ways of making a Cappuccino, but Im wondering if anyone could tell me more about cinnamon in Cappuccinos.

I'm italian, and I can confirm that (real) Cappuccinos has no cinnamon. Most italian barists will, if you ask them, sprinkle chocolate on the finished cappuccino, but no cinnamon. HaZe 18:28, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cinnamon and hazelnuts are adulterants to disguise the mediocre flavor of coffee that has been extended by the use of roasted ground chickory. After a while these flavors become part of a local coffee expectation (i.e. New Orleans coffee). Part of the history of coffee, but not of the history of cappuccino. --Wetman 19:55, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] foaming milk

The article links to a coffeegeeks page that is very long winded about how to steam milk, and it is also basically wrong, and will not produce the best results. Also, in many places on the page and on this talk page people discuss "foam" as if it is separate from steamed milk. If you steam your milk wrong, or let it sit, you will get foam. But properly steamed milk by modern methods produces a rich creamy frothy milk from top to bottom with no separation of foam, and this velvety froth is not scooped but poured (and can be poured to produce latte art; it is the only way to produce latte art). The technique is as follows (this comes from David Schomer of espressovivace.com: start with cold milk in a stainless steel pitcher. hold the pitcher in your hand. start steaming with the steam wand at the surface, till your hand feels the milk get warm. thrust the steam wand down into the milk and hold it so that the entire contents of the pitcher roll over and over, the surface should clearly be moving. steaming is finished when the pitcher begins to be too hot to hold.

if you pour this into a cappucino, you might get 1/3 foam, but at no point are you adding 1/3 foam.

[edit] recipe?

Does anyone else disagree with the 1/3 espresso, 1/3 steamed milk, 1/3 foam? The recipe would vary greatly based on the size of the beverage and the number of espresso shots pulled for the drink. Also 'microfoam' is not a word. How about changing to 'dense foam'? Perhaps also include methods of steaming the milk to acheive this dense foam for a cappuccino. Any takers? Jacob Buerk 04:15, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you becuase: if you go into an café et cetra, (I don't know if Starbucks Coffee Shop or Costa (if you live in UK) have them) and they should have a coffee menu, look at Cappuccino and it usually has a diagram on saying what will go into your coffee. Normally it is \frac{1}{3}espresso, \frac{1}{3}steamed milk, \frac{1}{3}foam.

15:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The current link in the first paragraph points towards latte macchiato as the standard milk/espresso alternative. However, that page is in rather poor condition right now. Would it make more sense to include a link to latte even if it only means "milk" in Italian? That article deals somewhat better with what people would recognize as the drink they order from a major chain. --Icelight 22:12, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] It is important to remember:

a): Cappuccino did get its name from the color the capuchin monks chose on their orders' clothes way back in the 16th century. The color is brownish-red, and has also given name to a flower (Nasturtium: in italian 'cappuccina', in french 'capucine grande', in german 'Kapuzinerkresse', dutch 'capucienerkers', arabian 'nabat al-kabbusin'[نبات الكبوسين]and russian (!): 'kaputsin-kress'[капуцин-кресс]. and a brownish-red monkey (capuchin monkey) (!!). The word was first used on the coffee beverage in Vienna in the first half of the 19th century.

b): The Capuchin friars called themselves 'capuccine' when they constituted themselves as a new order in the 16th century, -inspired by the early Franciscans- and decided to wear their costumes' hoods (capuce) long and pointed, inspired by the holy Saint Franciscus of Assisi's original robe, still to be seen there in Assisi'.

c): In Vienna, besides 'kapuziner', there was also another coffee beverage of coffee and milk named 'franziskaner' -made with more milk than the former, and named so, because the franciscans was wearing lighter (grey) robes.

d): 'Cappuccino' is italian for 'little capuchin', meaning little monk, and the italians took the beverage to their hearts when it was 'introduced' to them. When it first was served, it was plain dark coffee with rich milk in; the warm and later steamed milk -and even later the foam, added elegance to the beverage, and the classic crema round the rim of the cup came last.

e): Starbuck's brochures are wrong to argue that the name derives from the 'hood' of foam covering the drink.

f): In Rome, there is a litte street named 'Via Cappuccino', leading up to the remains of a capuchin monestairy with an exciting basement: a catacomb where the walls and vaults are covered with the remains of the sceletons of hundreds of friars! Many of the sceletons are dressed in capuchin robes! Check it out!

g): In Paris, the Boulevard des Capucins goes past Café de la Paix and the Opera

h): In Barcelona, Calle Capuxtins is a part of Ramblas (the main street)

Puzzled  :)

Yours; John in Oslo


FROM P QUINTELA ( from a country with also many variations of "milk and coffe" , like many countries -> See my "article " on "caffe latte")

Adding to John in Oslo, who seems one of the few to know what is talking about. In Portugal, there is also the "Ordem dos Capucinhos ", that u can find here http://www.capuchinhos.org/ Of course, many streets, etc . AND TO WHO CARES : American people, now called "cappuccino" , of course to an industry variation of SO CALLED "caffe latte" . And someones put it straight, they call it many names, talk about "cinamon", etc, when it is a common pratice in many mediterrean and other countries, for centuries . But the " BEVERAGE OF THE *BUCKS " will prevail (nothing against them, lol) and also his marketing history, marketing recipe , etc - not the true one (s) .

[edit] First picture

This may be a bit trivial, but I think the first picture is quite possibly the ugliest cappuccino I've ever seen in my entire life. --R!ck

I took a better one (IMHO) on my last holidays in Italy. I changed the file, since I believe mine isn't ugly. --Stephanerieppi (talk) 10:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Austrian beverage?

I just stumbled across the following in the german wikipedia's entry to cappucino: "Cappuccino ist, nicht wie oft behauptet, ein italienisches, sondern ein österreichisches Kaffeegetränk" which means something like "Cappucino is not, as is often claimed, an italian but an austrian beverage."

I have no idea if this is really true, so I haven't changed the article, but the source of the article says the same thing: http://www.pm-magazin.de/de/faartikel/artikel_id516.htm# - german link

PM is a well-reputed german popular-science magazine, maybe someone could check this out.


[edit] Originated in Austria, yes :)

As I mention above; the 'kapuziner' was an austrian, viennese invention -for sure dating back to the early 19th century, maybe before. Originally black coffee and milk, later improved and even sweetened with honey at times. The beverage followed the continental european café traditions west to Paris first, then south to Italy. When the italians improved the coffee machines in the latter half of the 1800's, and 'caffè' became 'espresso', the italians paved the way for a while -and the coffee language was italian  :). But t'was in the ancient coffee houses in Vienna it all started!

John Oslo

If true, revenge for Wiener schnitzel! Johnbod 21:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarifying intro paragraph

I've tweaked the intro paragraph to move excessive detail out: [1] Describing (for instance) multiple variations on cappuccino as well as several drinks that are not cappuccino is useful information later in the article, but I think it's overwhelming to have it in the intro. (I did leave in the bit about caffelatte, since that is a very closely related drink.) My changes have been reverted once without explanation. If anyone feels that it is actually important to talk about exact proportions and espresso macchiato as the first thing in the article, I'm happy to discuss it, but blind reversion is not productive. FreplySpang 12:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not Cappuccino

I removed this photo from the article since it's not a cappucino. It's clearly an espresso with whipped cream (Espresso con panna?):

Cappuccino
Cappuccino
That's what you'll get if you ask a Cappuccino in some European countries (France, Belgium, for instance). It is not a cappuccino in Italy, but the term is wrongly used in enough countries to make a mention of the fact somewhere. It makes me wonder: if such a mistake is done by a huge amount of people, is this still an error, or is this just a regional variation?--Stephanerieppi (talk) 10:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wheaties cappuccino?

Is that something reasonably well-known, or something somebody came up with and put on this page? Google doesn't find anything about it (which doesn't demonstrate that it doesn't exist, of course). Guy Harris 00:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

At least one of User:75.176.166.202's contributions sounds a bit trollish ("Monday Cloudy Monday" indeed); I call bogus on that one. Guy Harris 00:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Legend"

This aition would be "Original Research" if it were orginal-- the writer has no glimmer of Charles Lamb's witty debunking of this trite genre, A Dissertation on Roast Pig-- and had actually involved research-- not a ghost of a reference: but after all, how could there be? I leave it for the entertainment value it will provoke. --Wetman 19:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Australian idiosyncrasy?

In Australia, if you order a cappuccino, it always (bar one cafe I've been to) comes with a sprinkling of chocolate on top. I always assumed this was one of the defining characteristics of a cappuccino, though apparently not. So, then, two things: 1. Is Australia alone in this habit? 2. Is it worth mentioning as a variant?

58.175.33.49 11:42, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

1) No , 2) See end of lead Johnbod 11:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some notes

1) No mention of the legend about the origin of the drink? Will add tomorrow. 2) How exactly is this "Italian" when its very name is nothing more than a Italianized version of an Austrian name? JRWalko 03:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

1) Please don't 2) Is certainly mainly known as Italian. We may well not have heard the last on this. Johnbod 11:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Polish invention

Apparently. See here. (The Poles also alleged to have invented the bagel and to have had a hand in the croissant.) Presumably Wetman's comments, above should actually be on the Battle of Vienna's Talk Page and not here?--Major Bonkers (talk) 08:54, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Units

Whether it came from Austria or Italy, WP:UNITS says that the principal units of measurement for this article should be metric, ie ml, not ounces (and presumably people mean fluid ounces in any case?) FlagSteward (talk) 03:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)