Talk:British Isles/Archive 18

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Mediation

Seeing as this latest what to put in the article dispute has expanded. Perhaps, ya'll should start considering MEDIATION. PS- Could somebody refresh my memory? What started these latest disputes? GoodDay (talk) 16:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I've already proposed an RFC on this page. I believe that the MEDIATION would be an appropriate next step once, as seems inevitable given the refusal of editors on the page to respect Wikipedia policies, and probably finally Arbcom or some other formal process. The key WP policy that is being ignored here is this.."In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers.". We have ALL of these as sources, and still we have editors asserting that dislike of the term is limited to a "tiny minority". Wotapalaver (talk) 17:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Who said "tiny minority"? You exaggerate almost everything Wotapalava, again and again - it is truly tiring. You are saying: LOOK! We have ALL these sources! In my clear view: taken together they simply prove the word "many" is an exaggeration. There is virtually no evidence of public feeling on the British Isles issue - and there should be masses of it for you to use the word "many"! Istead, there is silence where you expect to be volume, and unashamed usage where you expect to be reticence. The mixed examples merely highlight the striking dearth of evidence - they are the extent of what can be found. In my opinion, the only way to solve this Wikipedia dispute is to cover the issue properly and fairly in one article: but people are refusing to do this. We need to get rid of the fork and focus in one place: we must highlight the terms usage historically, and weight the evidence of use and non-use.
Actually describing a general "dispute" (who else does? It is, in a way, Original Research to use that word) and having this fork is totally unencyclopedic and has made consensus impossible. This is an encyclopedia not a manifesto! Certainly there are and have been people who don't like the term: we must put it all IN CONTEXT, chronologically (no anachronisms), and with no leading rhetoric, no pluralising single 'events', and no ambiguous or exaggerated language. We CAN do this properly in a way we are all happy: it is very hard to do it over two articles though, and there is nothing to warrant having these two articles, other than the 'dispute' adveresly effecting the main article (which is THE worst reasons for a fork).
One other point: Lack of sufficient evidence aside, it is also like saying "many" Welsh object to the term "Principality" - it is too complex and you cannot use language like "many" in this case: Both "British" and "Principality" have older meanings (than English-related ones): and we must be careful to suggest the are always linked to animosity too. We must be careful not to suggest that many Irish currently dislike the British too. I have never been happy that this isn't an intention of some editors (expecially from comments I've read in discussion).--Matt Lewis (talk) 18:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Matt Lewis, I believe that several people have said "tiny minority". As for "unashamed usage where there should be reticence", look at Michelin, Reader's Digest, apparently now Collins, National Geographic, Folens, Irish government, apparently also Irish schoolbooks, newspapers, TV stations, etc. The fact that the term is very widely used in the UK, the USA, the rest of the world, is not contradictory with the well documented fact that the term is offensive, objectionable, rejected, not used, etc.,etc., in Ireland or by the Irish. Read the references. Look at Michelin and Reader's Digest guides and maps from a few decades ago and now. The name has changed. You may not like these facts, but they are verifiable facts. Meantime, Wales and Anglesey are irrelevant to this problem. The problem here is that editors refuse to accept verifiable sources and continue to insist that their own ignorance or political preference should take precedence over serious scholarly view. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Your above list is an exaggerated - Folens is the Irish schoolbook publisher and the Irish press reported it, maps have actually used "Britain and Ireland" for years (there are tradionally different Geographical and Political maps in the map business) - National Geographic uses both. They don't edidence dissent - although NG mentions that it can be disliked (whilst still using it). The truth is the media use it all the time - would they if "many" Irish objected? The BBC (which use it even for programme titles) is watchable in Ireland (as you would expect with such close ties between Britain and Ireland) - and don't tell me that Irish TV isn't full of BBC programmes - it simply is. But I've been through it all with you so many times - I'm writing the detailed point-by-point Section I promised to stop you from ignoring me and keeping asking me this stuff, as if I've never heard it from you before (which is extremely rude).
Mark Lewis, can you answer me this question. Is Anglesey a British Isle, or is it a Welsh Isle? And if both, which is it first? 78.19.13.108 (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm dealing with a particularly irritating troll on the Welsh page at the moment, so I'm particularly cautious of IPs. It's part of the archipelagos known as the British Isles as far as I'm concerned: as you are an IP and I'm being trolled I'm not going to go into my feelings on Welsh/British identity.--Matt Lewis (talk) 23:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Matt can obviously answer for himself, see, I've left him some space, but let me explain the situation. This type of question is sometimes asked by people who don't understand the subtle difference in terminologies, and Anglesey indeed serves as a good example. Anglesey is both a British isle and a Welsh isle. As to which comes first is down to personal preference, there's no rule. It's like me; I'm English and British, and I give them equal weight. However, I'm also Eurpoean, but I give that aspect of my nationality less weight. Some English people might consider their englishness to come ahead of their britishness, or vice versa; it's up to them. Now let's look at the island of Ireland. Ireland is only partly a British isle (due to Northern Ireland). Note that the phrase "a British isle" denotes ownership, hence Anglesey is a British isle. The user who asked the question (above) used the words "British Isle" with a capital I (incorrect). So we have Ireland being partly a British isle, but it is undoubtedly one of the British Isles (capital I is correct). The phrase "the British Isles" does not denote ownership. It is merely a geographical term in the same way as Irish Sea is - another term that does not denote ownership. So to summarise the situation regarding Ireland, which is what the original question is really about. Ireland is partly a British isle, and is also, in its entirety, a member of the island group known as the British Isles. The question is irrelevant as far as the Republic or Ireland is concerned - it is not an island. However, the ROI is within the British Isles. Hope this helps. Silas Stoat (talk) 20:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'll ask it another way. Is Anglesey one of the British Isles? 78.19.13.108 (talk) 20:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Silas Stoat (talk) 20:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Bingo, actually I was expecting that exact answer, amazing! Long, long ago, before you were born, the British Isles just meant Great Britain and Ireland. There were only two on the list. The rest of the islands were just an ancillary list belonging to either of the two "Isles". Fact, but a long time ago that was. 78.19.13.108 (talk) 20:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't know that, and you may well be correct. However, modern usage, which is prevalent in the article, includes all islands, even the Channel Islands. I personally would exclude the Channel Islands since their inclusion detracts from the purely geographic nature of the term, but the superior race of beings that decide on these matters have included them. Silas Stoat (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Another thought - do we have the concept of an Irish isle? I suppose we do. If so, the island of Ireland is such an isle, in its entirety, I would suggest. Rathlin Island is both, a British isle and an Irish isle. Silas Stoat (talk) 20:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
If it were up to you, then, Matt, what would this article say on this subject? How would you phrase it? The sources that are currently posted at BI variously say that: BI makes the Irish "angry"; It "no longer pleases all the inhabitants of the islands"; "Irishmen reject" it; it is "now a politically incorrect term"; it is "often offensive to Irish sensibilities"; it is "increasingly unacceptable to Irish historians"; and "many within the Irish Republic find it objectionable." (I'm also wondering if someone can lay out in precise terms what we KNOW -- as opposed to what we've heard-tell-of -- about the Atlases. I've seen lists of Atlases that apparently don't use it or no longer use it, but I'm not clear on the precise story of what we know about all of these that have been mentioned. Which do we know once used it but have since removed it, etc.?) I can agree that we need to tread lightly, particularly with a word like "offensive," which is used only by one source. It's not a word I would use. But, collectively, angering/no longer pleasing/rejected/offensive/unacceptable/objectionable all point in the same direction. Something along the lines of "reject its use" might be how I'd word it. And/or maybe "unacceptable." These don't depend on claiming to know the emotional response of individuals (as does a word like "offended"), but comment only on the end result for a term like BI: That is, non-use or wishing for non-use. That wouldn't be an overstatement of the sources, if anything it's understating them--by leaving out the more emotive terms. This then leads to the question of quantifying the rejection, and is it the Irish we reference or 'in relation to Ireland'? and where in the article to place such a statement. Personally, I'd put it in the lead paragraph, because it goes to the very name/topic itself. The other two questions, I haven't figured out a wording for, yet... Nuclare (talk) 20:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, a suggestion: We say something like "It has been used since (a period)...and... its use has been seen as controversial in relation to Ireland since (a period). (("Today" - if it ever was a legal term)) "It is widely regarded as a geographical, not political or legal term." (we can quote the non-legal use statements). We MUST have a Controversy section lower down. Standard Wikipedia stuff, and NO fork. In the Controversy section we can say something like "There is evidence in recent times that map makers are favouring the term "Britain and Ireland" over the more traditionally used "British Isles", and some combine the two terms." (eg National Geographic). I would then have a decent sub paragraph on "History of dissent" - It will be in context then. I just want professionalism, and not propaganda.--Matt Lewis (talk) 23:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Nuclare, I don't know if it can be presented without appearing as OR, but it's easy to look up - for instance - old Michelin and Reader's Digest atlases. The old ones are called something like "Road Atlas of the British Isles". The newer ones are called "Road Atlas of Great Britain and Ireland". Amazon.com sells old books so it's easy to verify, although I'm not sure how easy it is to present without becoming OR, although the simple fact that they used to use the term and they don't use it now is definitely verifiable without any synthesis or dispute. The recent statement about Collins maps is something I haven't tried to check. The National Geographic position is well supported now. As for whether the "dispute" belongs in the lead, for me it's clear. The very name itself is objected-to, so this needs to be stated immediately. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd have no problem with putting the 'Name controversy' lower down in the article. GoodDay (talk) 23:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. Given the scale of the problems from a WP:NPOV perspective I'd say the naming issue needs to be highlighted much more strongly in the article lead; at least until the name is corrected. Sarah777 (talk) 00:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Disagree also. The controversy must be highlighted in the lead paragraph - at least until an article called "Great Britain and Ireland" or some such takes over as the main referencable article.... --Bardcom (talk) 15:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

"Although commonly used worldwide, the term British Isles has been controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people over the history of the term have found it objectionable.[4] The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a sokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage it's usage".[5]" I have changed to this, which I'm happy with. I haven't yet found the time to go through all the in Talk evidence as I promised - but it is not enough for me to suggest that "many" NOW object to the term - and I still find the evidence weak ('Oxbridge' I know, I know, I know) overall ie compared to what one would expect, and the wide usage of the word in the face of it. It is also history-based evidence - I've tried to reflect that too (whether the history book is modern or not!). The Irish govt does not discourage everyone using it - we have a 1940's note and an Embassy spokesman quote - neither talk about the people, so we shouldn't suggest it does. Such terms are often not 'legal' ones too.--Matt Lewis (talk) 17:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

this at least is evidence that the Irish government do indeed discourage the use of the name British Isles. --Jack forbes (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes it's the ref that is still in there! It's the one I'm using. In what way does it "discourage its use? Read it!:
"However, Minister for Foreign Affairs Dermot Ahern has ruled that the term is not used by the Government and is without any official status....It was made clear by him that the term is not recognised in any legal or inter-governmental sense....The Irish Embassy in London has also been urged to monitor the media in Britain for "any abuse of the official terms as set out in the Constitution of Ireland and in legislation".
Have I not covered that ref better than merely to say "the Irish gov discourages the term"? It needed clarifying - yet every clarification I make gets reverted. This article has been about controlled exaggeration, and IPs and socks-users (like Wikipeire) have been used to do it. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)