Talk:Brian Boru

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Isn't the occasion of making the Vikings pay tribute still celebrated in Dublin as a sort of independence day? I'd put it in the article, but I don't remember the details sufficiently. -- April

It doesn't sound familiar, I'll try and check it out at some stage. Bernfarr

Emm, Not really. The driving out of the Danes is remembered, but not celebrated.. It's not a day of in and of itself.

Hello, I'm new to Wikipedia.

I have a suggestion for this page, but am not confident enough to edit it myself: What about adding some info about Brian Boru's family, like his parents, marriage(s), and children?

Contents

[edit] 66.185.85.80

The user from 66.185.85.80 who revised the page had his edits for Niall of the Nine Hostages revoked and the page marked with a possible copyright violation. The same web site with Niall of the Nine Hostages information seems to have been mined for this[1] article. I don't know what the status of the copyright is, but I'm reverting to the old version of this page until this all gets cleared up. --Ruy Lopez 10:02, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

I've made a start on cleaning up and wiki-fying/reformatting the article. The prose is rather thick, with some great Irish-isms "to be sure", which I've left in :). Some of the sentence structures were odd and I've fixed these. I've removed some of the stuff that was in parentheses as these bits really need to be put into different articles, and merged some stuff that was duplicated. I'm still not sure if the whole "History" section really belongs in this article at all. There is quite a bit of original research I suspect, but I'm not quite comfortable enough to remove it yet. I'd love to get some feedback. - FrancisTyers 23:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Right, done a bit more tweaking, apologies for the "dramatic" subheadings, I'd gladly remove them, but I think they at least break up the piece a little (which sorely needs doing) and so they'll do for now. Its looking much more like a WP article now. Could do with sorting out some of the links, i'm sure some of them point to disambig pages. Also could probably do with some pictures, obviously a photo is out of the question, but perhaps a map of ireland in the history section showing exactly where he was fighting? Anyway thats all for now, comments welcome. - FrancisTyers 01:48, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I started in, just for the sake of organisation (the subheading Royal Ascent was my first effort); then I read popular image, and after that history - which does have its place, but not there - and felt lost. See you later.shtove 22:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for taking a look. Its a difficult one to clean up and I'd be glad of any help ;) If you think I've done something wrong please correct it, but if you look at my attempted cleanup [2], I hope you think most of it has been appropriate and that the article is at least in some way an improvement. If not, please do what you will :) - FrancisTyers 00:38, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Um, if someone could verify dates for his life that would be great. I mention this because it says at the top of the page that he was probably born around 926 but later in the history section it says that he became King at 35 when his brother died in something like 976. Thanks!

I've removed the disputed tag as I don't think there is any real dispute on here at the moment. We simply have to find a reputable source and add Brian's date of birth, if known.--File Éireann 20:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Brittanica states that he was born in 941. I think that until someone researches the issue further, it would be reasonable to accept 941 as per EB.--File Éireann 20:20, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Edit: Hi, to whom ever wrote the 'Popular image' article I have a few questions. It seemed to me that in the 'Popular image' article you were trying to rufute something, and it is unclear to me as to what (If anything) you're trying to refute. If this is the case could you please clarify? And if the article is trying to rufute something could you please site your sources? Thanks. --PatickOg 05:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't know who made the 'popular image' article (Wasn't FrancisTyers, thanks for the clear up) but I think it should be removed. It doesn't seem to (Me) convey it's message very well. Also it seems to suggest that Boru had little if anyhting to do with the Vikings. We know he did because of the Battle of Clontarf and two norse works, Njal's Saga and the Orkneyinga Saga, which claim Earl Sigurd was at the battle and so was Brian Boru. Further more the Danes while they were absorbed in to the Irish Culture, the major absorption began after Clontarf. Again I suggest the 'popular image' be removed as it will likely clash with other articles as well as itself. That is unless the person who wrote it would like to present his sources. --PatickOg 07:04, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The common practice in this case is to edit the page, cut the text and paste it onto the talk page with an explanation of why you have done this. You can refer to WP:CITE. - FrancisTyers 10:49, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I believe the point of the popular image section is indeed to refute Brian Boru's popular image as a leader of the Gaelic resistance against the Vikings. A lot of what is mentioned therein seems to make perfect sense, except for the fact that references are needed. I wouldnt suggest removing it, however, but perhaps adding some sort of appropriate tag. Furthermore, it probably requires some editing. While it is likely true that Vikings were largely integrated into the Irish political scene, it is unlikely that antagonism between the Gaels and Norse didnt play at least *some* part in Boru's campaigns. Unfortunately, I really dont feel confident enough to medle in what seems like a reasonably good article. Druworos 11:39, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

The orthography of kings' names could do with being tidied up :- Mael Mordha would be better as Máelmórda mac Murchada, Mathgamain Mathgamain mac Cennetíg, Mael Muad Máelmuad mac Brain, Mael Sechlainn mac Domnall II Máelsechlainn mac Domnaill, and so on, all matching Byrne's usages in Irish Kings and High-Kings. Patronymics don't need repeating after the first mention unless there's a need to disambiguate. I'd also suggest unlinking them. Anyone who writes an article on them can always use Google to find which pages need links adding (but only if there's some sort of standardisation in the usages). Angus McLellan 13:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

To Druworos. I've been reading more about Brain Boru and this subject. I will admit his image as the king who freed the Irish from the Norse is largely over blown. But I would point out that not only does the subject in question seem confusing by being placed outside the articles about Brian's life and rule but also seems to conflict with the rest of the page. It can only help but confuse the reader instead of giving him a constant, flowing, and informative read. Until I can say whether or not the "Popular Image" article is true or not I won't delete it, I'm either going to try and join the the articles or perhaps add to "Popular Image" so it sounds less opposing to the rest of the page. --PatickOg 09:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Queen mother

What's this I hear about the british queen mother being a descendant of Brian Boru? Superdude99 20:08, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Birth

I just noted the possibility he was born in 926 in the article. I originally learned of this from the French Larousse Encyclopedic Dictionary, ed 1964 ... When I later saw all sources quoting 941, I thought it was a mistake on Larousse's part, or maybe science had evolved since... but I just saw in again on answers.com, meaning there's a set of sources still clinging to 926... if anybody can get definitive data on the matter, I'd like to see all this cleaned up. --Svartalf 19:13, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brian Boru's Cultural Heritage

I have recently purchased a book about Brian Boru, his family, and his descendants. I saw the entry on wikipedia about the Kennedy family being descendants of Boru through a son named Cennetig. According to this book, which is probably the most accurate book about the O'Brien Clan out there, Brian's sons were named: Murrough, Conor, Flan, Teige, Donald, and Donough. Brian's father, however, was named Cennetig, and it is thought that some Kennedy clans are descended from Cennetig through some of Brian Boru's brothers. There are a number of non-O'Brien surnames descended from Brian. On the O'Brien Clan website, Kennedy is not listed as one. And this is understandable because I do not think a descendant of Brian Boru would take a pre-Boru ancestor's name as their own surname. I have read also that the American Kennedy family is descended from the Scottish Kennedy clan and is not affiliated with the Dalcassian Kennedy family. But I did not want to edit that entry in case anybody had any differing information from what I have. -- From what i recall, the Kennedy family are descended from one of Brian's nephews who was called Cennetig. -Paul

[edit] Remembrance in modern times

Some days ago, somebody removed the sections about trivia and modern culture references to Brian. I've reinstated them until discussion can take place to see just why they should be removed in the first place. Granted, the bits gathered there are trivial, but they show that King Brian is not forgotten. Also, the fact that the harp kept at Trinity College is generally named after him, or the existence of a piece of music bearing his name are worth mentioning, all the more so as there are no specific articles on them. The Brian Boru Harp is subsumed in the emblems of Ireland, and while the March is famous and well known, I don't know if enough is known about it to make an independent article, I sure could not even wring a stub's worth out of what I know without going into baseless conjectures. So mentioning the piece under the eponym seems the best solution. --Svartalf 02:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alfred the Great

I would like it noted that the burgeoning victories of Brian Boru against the Norse Vikings in the late 10th century are simultaneous with the burgeoning victories of Aelfred the Great of Wessex against the Norse Vikings in the late 10th century. That is, in the years leading up to 1000 CE, both the Christian Irish and the Christian Anglo-Saxons began emerging from Norse Viking subjugation. I believe it is obvious that there is at least indirect relation here — at the minimum, by 1000 CE, the Vikings were in decline and the long suppressed Celtic-Christian kingdoms of Ireland and England began re-emerging. But I also believe it is possible that there was some direct relation between Brian Boru and his contemporary colleague, and de facto ally, Aelfred the Great of Wessex. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.235.44.73 (talk • contribs).

Alfred the Great died in 899. For most of his reign the "High King of Ireland" was Flann Sinna. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

subjugation? erin was not East Anglia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.218.218 (talk) 03:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section "Historical View" unhistorical

That section is written so as to suggest that the presence of the Norse in Ireland at the time of Brian Boru was equivalent to that of English footballers on holiday - rowdy tourists with knives or swords. However given that the Norse had already conquered significant areas of England, Scotland, France and Russia it seems incongruous and less than credible to imply that they had no comparable penetration of Ireland.

If you check any of these articles by Donnchadh Ó Corrain you will see support from a significant Irish historian for the view that the Norse indeed never did succeed in conquering Ireland.
Further, that "the Norse had already conquered significant areas of England, Scotland, France and Russia" is quite an exaggeration I'm afraid. Finnrind 17:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

"less than credible to imply that they had no comparable penetration of Ireland. " no it's not —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.218.218 (talk) 03:41, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References in popular culture

New too this Wiki thing but i read in the paper a couple of month ago that a film was to be made about Brian Boru's life or the battle of Clontarf, cant remember which. Does anyone think this should be included in the popular culture or even Trivia section? Dont know enough about the film to write it, dont even think filiming started yet, but should it make a mention?? James153.96.50.65 09:52, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

First, welcome to Wikipedia, James! If the film's pretty well certain to go ahead and it's expected to be a major film, then yes, there should definitely be a mention in the "In Popular Culture" section. And if you can find out about it, it would certainly be helpful. The only thing to be concerned about is whether the film is going to happen, because as you may know sometimes films are proposed (and even half-made) but never actually arrive. I'm pointing this out because there's a policy on Wikipedia that future events should only be included if they are almost certain to go ahead - see WP:CRYSTAL. Cheers, A bit iffy 10:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I've been having second thoughts... That WP:Crystal policy really concerns articles about future events, and doesn't really concern a sentence or two within an article. However, we obviously shouldn't have pure speculation within any article (this is an encyclopaedia, after all). I have done some Googling on Brian Boru films and I see there are many suggestions that Sean Penn will be making a film on Boru. If you or anyone can find something a bit firmer about this, then perhaps it's still worth mentioning. --A bit iffy 11:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Not too sure about Sean Penn, when i read the article in the paper, it mentioned either Christian Bale or Leo DiCaprio playin Boru. Im not too sure if it is going ahead (it was only a small article with not alot of details) but i'll check!! James 153.96.50.65 08:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Sean Penn? Brian Borjew lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.218.218 (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)