Talk:Boris Sarafov

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The false "quotation" from Sarafov has been erased. Here is the source itself: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E07E5D91E38E733A25754C0A9629C946097D6CF —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.85.7.253 (talk) 18:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Invalid link

Why is it an invalid link, ForeignerFromTheEast? iNkubusse? 18:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Because it does not open. ForeignerFromTheEast 18:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to say that you're a liar, but I asked a few other guys to check it, and it works fine. Would you please try again? iNkubusse? 19:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, it does not work. ForeignerFromTheEast 19:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Technically, the link to the .gif works just fine. In terms of good citation practice, it would be good to have an exact bibliographic reference to the publication of that newspaper though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's the front page of the first publication. I think it says "Годъ I., № 1., 9 Іюня, 1913., С.-Петербургъ". iNkubusse? 20:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
It still does not work for me but since I've had at least one other confirmation, ok then. What does it say? ForeignerFromTheEast 21:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Look, Sarafov clearly says that they (he and the other Macedonians) are not Bulgarians or Serbs, but simply Macedonians. I think that there's no reason why he shouldn't be called a Macedonian revolutionary. iNkubusse? —Preceding comment was added at 21:58, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, so I found another way to open the picture. This is from 1913, about 6 years after the death of Sarafov. Also if I'm not wrong, this is a publication of a well known Macedonist Dimitrija Chupovski. There is no other evidence suggesting Chupovski and Sarafov have ever been in contact. ForeignerFromTheEast 22:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
This newspaper seems to be quite an entertaining read. On page 3 it says that "Macedonia during Tsar Samuil (976-1014) ruled Albania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Epirus. Also ruled by Macedonian Prince Marko from 1371 to 1394. Also refers to Cyrill and Methodius as "Macedonians". I'd be hard pressed to quialify this as a reliable source. If you've gone as far as to label Samuil "King of Macedonia", might as well throw one more fictitious quote. ForeignerFromTheEast 22:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
You know, you're quite an interesting person. Cyril and Methodius were not Bulgarians, and if they weren't Greeks, they were Slavs (not Bulgars). That's a fact. And no matter how much you hate that side of history, Samuil, Cyril and Methodius and Marko are regarded simply as Macedonians by them (Sarafov and the others) and by us (modern Macedonians). They also call the Slavic-speaking population of Macedonia simply Macedonians - that's another thing that looks ridiculous to you. Ah, I really shouldn't discuss about this, but one thing is clear: Sarafov wrote that thing that's in the paper -> he's an ethnic Macedonian. And you're not the one to qualify it as an unreliable source. iNkubusse? 23:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
He could not have written it because he'd been dead for 6 years. The article is by Chupovski afterall. ForeignerFromTheEast 23:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
As we do not know what was the case it is probably better not to make unsourced statments that it may have been written by "Chupovski" as it may have just been a reprint of something Sarafov wrote.Ireland101 00:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Refer to the facts above. This newspaper is not a reliable source. By the way it is not an unsourced statement that this is written by Chupovski, because that newspaper in 1913 was indeed printed by Dimitrija Chupovski, 6 years after the death of Sarafov. ForeignerFromTheEast 00:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
This may be the case Forigner however I still do not understand why the newspaper is unreliable as it reflects how Macedonians felt in the 1900's. It is probably more reliable then our discussions today about how these people viewed themselves then.Ireland101 00:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
It is unreliable because according to Wikipedia:Reliable sources content should be not be supported by "nationalist feelings" but by academics. ForeignerFromTheEast 00:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for informing me of this Foreigner I was not aware of this. Since this is the case I assume sources from Macedonia or Bulgaria should not be used in articles relating to ether of them as they may have nationalist POV. So a good step that you can take would be removing all Bulgarian sources that are in articles related to Macedonia as you feel that this should happen with Macedonian sources.Ireland101 01:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Not really. Academics could be from both Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia. Blogs, etc do not count. ForeignerFromTheEast 01:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, so this article does not violate Wikipedias rules as it is not from a blog but rather from the president of the Macedonian scientific and literary society.Ireland101 01:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Dimitrija Chupovski? No thanks, read above. ForeignerFromTheEast 01:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Dude, Foreigner, you can't just say no, thanks to whatever you don't trust. For example, I don't trust anything that comes from Bulgarian sources (you shouldn't be offended), but there's nothing I can do if I cannot prove their falseness. iNkubusse? 01:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Ive listed enough reasons above why this is unreliable source. If you have something to add in concrete then do so. ForeignerFromTheEast 01:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Sure: it's a reliable source ;) iNkubusse? 01:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
And I have pointed out why it is not. How do you address my concerns? ForeignerFromTheEast 01:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I told you, he wrote it and later it was published in the newspaper. But the article seems fine to me now, he was pro-Bulgarian oriented in the beginning anyway. iNkubusse? —Preceding comment was added at 01:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
And where did he write it? Where is the quote from? ForeignerFromTheEast 02:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The quote is from the newspaper, I don't know where he wrote it, but they surely didn't fabricate it. iNkubusse? 02:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The quote is not from the newspaper because Sarafov has been dead for six years when it was published. Where was it from? ForeignerFromTheEast 02:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know, you'll have to check that. But the Russians sure wouldn't let some "Bulgarians" include an counterfeit in their paper. iNkubusse? 02:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
So was Chupovski Russian? You claim usage of source, you show where it is from. ForeignerFromTheEast 03:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References for ethnicity

Part 3 of the memoirs. Complete memoirs. On the page provided, please refer to the passage: "Истовремено еден руски полковник, некојси Бешков, обиколуваше низ Македонија, и се искажуваше многу неповолно за нас Бугарите во Македонија...". ForeignerFromTheEast 16:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I know this, I don't negate it, I mentioned earlier that he thought of himself as Bulgarian, but later he came out with the idea that the Macedonian people are a distinct ethnicity. That's why a Bulgarian revolutionary is not completely appropriate. Just like Krste Misirkov, he wasn't always aware of his distinct nationality, but nevertheless, he realised that later and wrote a whole study. iNkubusse? 17:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
When did he come up with the idea of the Macedonians being distinct. In Chupovski's newspaper? That one is out of the question as described earlier. ForeignerFromTheEast 17:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
No, it's not, you're not the one to decide. I'll try to find some other sources. iNkubusse? 20:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok then where is it from? ForeignerFromTheEast 20:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
See my previous message. iNkubusse? 21:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New source

Will you be providing a link to demonstrate what the source says? ForeignerFromTheEast 16:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

What, now you don't trust London Times? I didn't know that it was a Titoist newspaper... BTW, you can check the .pdf file, it's included in the article. iNkubusse? 17:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The famous "quote" of Sarafov by Chupovski is not by Sarafov himslef, but is a quote from Russian journalist Amfiteatrof, who claimed that he got an interview with Sarafov during his trip in Serbia. However no evidence can be found whatsoever that Amfiteatrov ever met Sarafov! K. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.91.171.198 (talk) 15:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bulgarian/ethnic Macedonian

I can understand why in article of Boris Sarafov has Category:Macedonian revolutionaries (ethnic group), I think that in this category must be the name of ethnic Macedonian only. Boris Sarafov always defined himself as ethnic Bulgarian. He has Memoirs and there every peopele can find what is his ethnicity. May be there is error because Boris Sarafov was born in Region of Macedonia. In Category:Macedonian revolutionaries (ethnic group) i find again many ethic Bulgarians, all of them are defined like ethic Bulgarians, and all of them was born in Region of Macedonia (somebody in present Republic Macedonia, somebody in present Bulgaria, sombody in present Greece). --Li4kata 09:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

In Republic of Macedonia say that almost all of Bulgarian national heroes which was born in Region of Macedonia are ethnic Macedonian, if somebody greek say that this persons are greeks, what we will do?--Li4kata 09:13, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
By the way last month Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts say that Orpheus is ethnic Macedonian like Boris Sarafov e.g. It's not joke if you want i can give you the links but in MK and BG. In Republic of Macedonia announce 90% from people born in Region of Macedonia or near like ethnic Macedonian, it's doesn't matter whether they are defined themself like Bulgarians, Greeks, Vlachs, Albanians, Anciant Macedonians, Anciant Thracians. You can see that in google.com it's easily. --Li4kata 09:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Li4kata you may think that Sarafov is an ethnic Bulgarian, however their are people that think he is ethnic Macedonian. Wikipedia is not one-sided and somewhat of an agreement has been reached to consider Macedonian revolutionaries Bulgarian from the Bulgarian side, and Macedonian from the Macedonian side. Therefore he is also in the category Macedonian revolutionaries (ethnic group). Please do not continue spreading POV or you will be reported for vandalism.Ireland101 16:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Check the source. The ethnicity of all the people you've met in that category is disputed. There are different POV's and Wikipedia lists them all (sources are needed of course). iNkubusse? 18:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
It's doesn't matter what i tnink and what I don't think. Boris Sarafov is Bulgarian (ethnic). He defined himself like Bulgarian, all of his friends and contemporaries defined Sarafov like Bulgarians. Bulgarian "Krastyo Sarafov National Academy for Theatre and Film Arts" in Sofia bring the name of Boris brother - Krastyo. Boris Sarafov has never said that he is ethnic Macedonian, never!!! If I consider you for Martian, then what, your Martian??! I know very well that people from Republic of Macedonia define B. Sarafov like ethnic Macedonian, but scientists in RM consider Orpheus (Thracian musician) also like ethnic Macedonin. In article we can read that in RM considered B. Sarafov for ethnic Macedonian this is fact and I never touch this text. But if there is Category:Macedonian revolutionaries (ethnic group) then we understand that this person is Bulgarian and Macedonian together. It's not truth. Kind regards. --Li4kata 18:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Look, if you dreamt of Sarafov being Bulgarian, that's good for you. On Wikipedia, please refer to the sources. iNkubusse? 14:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
INkubusse do you read the article??! In article is clearly say Boris Sarafov considered himself for ethnic Bulgarian. What do you need for evidence to beleive that Srafov is ethic Bulgarian. The question is not what you think for him and what Boris Sarafov thought for himself and whta thought for him his friends and contemporaries.--Li4kata 07:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not gonna reason with you, definitely. You really need to read some of Wikipedia's guidelines. I see you don't understand anything we do here. Seriously. iNkubusse? 21:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually the cat is the slightest problem with these articles. Why don't you just let it go? If you're pretty sure that the article itself would make people believe he was Bulgarian just leave the cat alone. Everybody can figure it out for himself. This, I repeat myself again, is compromise for revolutionaries active in the XX century and that were at least born in the region. And, please, all of you join the discussion about this here --Laveol T 23:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this adds much to the debate, but Sarafov was identified as a Bulgarian during the time he spent in Romania. The Romanian writer Ion Luca Caragiale has a sketch story titled after him, which deals with the trial of Sarafov and his collaborators in Bucharest (at some point during the 1890s - the details of this remain to be investigated). "Sarafoff" is interchanged with "the Bulgarian", his movement is called "Bulgarian", and, one time, "Macedo-Bulgarian". This is not the only one of his texts where Sarafov is the main character. Btw: one would picture that this Romanian aspect of his activity/legacy should make it in the text at some point. Dahn 01:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, this might prove pretty useful. Ummm, any translation possible? --Laveol T 10:08, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
It is all over the text, so I didn't know which part to translate. This particular story is basically about his "Bulgarian conspiracy" and his "Macedonian committee". Sarafov initially escapes trial in Romania, and Caragiale creates a situation where one regular person mistakes another for Sarafov. During the confusion, he sees in that person "a Bulgarian", and one would have to assume that it is because Sarafov was one (his conspiracy is several times referred to as "Bulgarian"). See this sentence: "tânărul vede că Sarafoff n-are deloc intenţia să plece, şi mai observă că bulgarul n-are câtuşi de puţin aerul că ar lua seama la dânsul" (my translation: the young man [who believes he is visited by Sarafov] sees that Sarafoff has no intention of leaving, and also sees that the Bulgarian does not at all seem to care that he is present"). If I read and reread the story correctly, the mysterious man does not actually introduce himself as "Bulgarian" - he is merely silent throughout, and believed to be Bulgarian because he looks like and is thought to be Sarafov (I should add that the story is a comical piece).
Several such references are present in this another story, where a journalist describes a supposed Bulgarian conspiracy led by Sarafov (while Sarafov's ethnicity is not specifically discussed in there, it is stated that at least one participant is Bulgarian and implied that all others other). None of the characters are referred to as "Macedonian", but any one of those in any way named is referred to as "Bulgarian".
For other details of his biography that appear in Caragiale, I would have to look through this and several other texts (I have read some of them before, but not so I would memorize historic details). In any case, I was not so far able to find another source for the details of his time in Romania, but Caragiale makes it pretty clear that the trial was a scandal (I think it is because Romania agreed to try a person based on an Ottoman request), and Romanian authorities came to fear reprisals from the part of Balkan revolutionary groups. Dahn 12:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)