User talk:Ben MacDui/Archive J

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[edit] Scotland Article - Official Languages

Below is a copy of what I have sent Mais oui. For your info...

Hi.

Your colleague, Ben Mac', appears to agree that Scotland's Offical Languages include Gaelic and Scots. However, nowhere can I find evidence to support either of you on this. Your last revision today cited an "International Treaty", (I'm assuming the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages is the treaty to which you refer), and "Domestic Legislation", (again I assume the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005).

I am not taking the micky here, (and I genuinely mean that), but have you actually read these documents? Either of them? Guess what - I have, and what is more, nowhere in either of these documents is the status of Offical Language conferred upon either Gaelic or Scots. There is no disputing they are languages in their own right and are recognised as such in both the domestic legislation and international treaties to which you refer. These are facts not open to any misinterpretation. However, the European Charter states under Article 1 that for the purposes of the Charter:

a. "regional or minority languages" means languages that are:

i. traditihttp://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_bold.pngonally used within a given territory of a State by nationals of that State who form a group numerically smaller than the rest of the State's population; and

ii. different from the official language(s) of that State;

it does not include either dialects of the official language(s) of the State or the languages of migrants;

b. "territory in which the regional or minority language is used" means the geographical area in which the said language is the mode of expression of a number of people justifying the adoption of the various protective and promotional measures provided for in this Charter;

c. "non-territorial languages" means languages used by nationals of the State which differ from the language or languages used by the rest of the State's population but which, although traditionally used within the territory of the State, cannot be identified with a particular area thereof.

Article 2 – Undertakings

1. Each Party undertakes to apply the provisions of Part II to all the regional or minority languages spoken within its territory and which comply with the definition in Article 1.

2. In respect of each language specified at the time of ratification, acceptance or approval, in accordance with Article 3, each Party undertakes to apply a minimum of thirty-five paragraphs or sub-paragraphs chosen from among the provisions of Part III of the Charter, including at least three chosen from each of the Articles 8 and 12 and one from each of the Articles 9, 10, 11 and 13.

Nowhere in the 23 Articles of the Charter does it mention that the Charter itself confers Offical Status to any language specified by the 8 States, (Including the UK), who ratified the treaty with regard to those languages as defined in Article 1. As for the UK:

a) The United Kingdom declares, in accordance with Article 2, paragraph 2 and Article 3, paragraph 1, of the Charter that it will apply the following provisions for the purposes of Part III of the Charter to Welsh, Scottish-Gaelic and Irish.

Scottish-Gaelic – 39 paragraphs Article 8: Education Paragraphs 1a (i) 1b (i) 1c (i) 1d(iv) 1e (iii) 1f (iii) 1g 1h 1i 2 Total: 10

b) The United Kingdom declares, in accordance with Article 2, paragraph 1 of the Charter that it recognises that Scots and Ulster Scots meet the Charter’s definition of a regional or minority language for the purposes of Part II of the Charter. Period covered: 01/07/01 - The preceding statement concerns Article(s): 2, 3

None of the above paragraphs and sub-paragraphs relating to Scots or Gaelic to which the UK Govt. gave an undertaking to apply affords "Official Status" to either language - FACT. May I therefore refer you to the Wiki page for Official Languages and the Section Officially recognised minority languages.

With regard to the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, it starts:

The Bill for this Act of the Scottish Parliament was passed by the Parliament on 21st April 2005 and received Royal Assent on 1st June 2005

An Act of the Scottish Parliament to establish a body having functions exercisable with a view to securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language, including the functions of preparing a national Gaelic language plan, of requiring certain public authorities to prepare and publish Gaelic language plans in connection with the exercise of their functions and to maintain and implement such plans, and of issuing guidance in relation to Gaelic education.

This provides for the establishing of Bòrd na Gàidhlig which will have "functions exercisable with a view to securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland". Therefore the Act states both the intention and the means but does not itself confer the status of Official Language upon Gaelic. It will be for BnG to exercise its functions in order to secure Official Language status for Gaelic - FACT.

To insist therefore that both Scots and Gaelic are Official Languages is both erroneous and misleading. To do so repeatedly without apparently checking the facts is, well, you figure which adjective I should insert.

The case of Taylor v Haughney (1982) is also relevant. For links to that and the above, Google is your friend.80.41.226.135 21:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shetland Islands

Hi, and thanks for the welcome message.
I've made a change to the Perie Bard page, hope I didn't screw it up, apart from forgetting to log in. The info is just from personal knowledge of the area, having lived there for 50 years ;-). I hope info like that is OK.
I don't have a lot of spare time but I will have a look among the other islands and see if I can add or correct anything. I put the position on the Perie Bard one, I thought that sort of thing might be helpful if folks wanted to look it up on a map. Should a reference be given for position information from the OS map?? I wasn't quite sure how to do a reference, but I will learn.
Regards,
Shetlander57 14:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

A reference isn't really needed for an OS grid reference, although one can be provided by referring to the relevant Landranger etc. map. This is however something of an exception. Scottish islands are often lacking in references, and normally I'd slap a {{fact}} tag on unreferenced material, and remove the information after a few weeks if no-one has found a reference for it. Adding references is relatively simple in principle. All you need to do is type <ref> at the beginning of the reference you are providing and </ref> at the end. (Note the extra slash in the second tag). Provided there is a references section containing the tag <references/>, the citation will then show up at there. Peerie Bard has a simple example

The complication is in the detail. There are several referencing systems and styles. WP:MOS#Sources_and_links may help. Ben MacDui (Talk) 17:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a thought, but perhaps this may interest you.
I don't know if this should be added to the Bressay page or is there a better place to add this info, or if on the Bressay page should it have a new section?. Perhaps you can phrase it better than I can, and add it, if it's worth adding.

The east side of Bressay was the site of the wreck of the reefer "Green Lily" on 19th November 1997. It was a ship which had just left Lerwick with a load of frozen fish from the local Shetland Catch factory when it broke down and drifted ashore in storm force winds. All the crew were rescued by the Lerwick lifeboat and the local Coastguard rescue helicopter.
What makes it particularly notable in is that the helicopter winchman, Bill Deacon was swept away and killed after having ensured the safety of the last of the ships crew, he was posthumously awarded the George Medal for bravery.
The Coxwain of the lifeboat, Hewitt Clark, was awarded the RNLI Gold medal for his part in the rescue, and is the only living RNLI member to hold such an honour.

Note, info just from memory, so would need to be checked and referenced against sources such as possibly Coastguard or RNLI.
Also, would it be worth mentioning some of the more notable shipwrecks around the other Shetland Islands? I know little bits and pieces about some of them, and it may help to fill out the pages. If you like the idea I can see how you add it, and then do similar for the other ones.
Shetlander57 14:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeed I think it would be helpful, and crucial in creating comprehensive articles about the islands. I have just completed something along these lines for Papa Stour in fact. It should be easy enough to provide references. Entering 'Green Lily shipwreck Shetland' into Google for example provided several useful hits. Ben MacDui (Talk) 16:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I had a look at the Papa Stour page. I can correct some details there, so I'll look out some of the info I have, and the Ben Doran happens to be the one I know perhaps most about. I actually have a tape recording of a BBC radio programme from about 1978 which tells the full story of the Ben Doran (A178) wreck, and the later wreck of the Elinor Viking (A278). The programme was put together from tape recordings made by the late Clement Williamson from Scalloway, who, sometime in the late 40's or early 50's, had interviewed all the people, still alive, who had been involved in the rescue attempts. It is an amazing programme.
I'll see what I can put together and add a bit to your aticle.
Shetlander57 15:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

OK. In principle I can't see any objection to a radio broadcast from a reliable source being used as a reference, but having taken a quick look I can't see anything about the subject either way. Ben MacDui (Talk) 16:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe I wasn't very clear. I was referring to the Shipwrecks on Papa Stour, Section 3.4. The Aberdeen trawler Ben Doran. The Stromness lifeboat was only given the order to launch on the Sunday, 2 days after the wreck, by which time it was too late, and it was called back before it got there.
I also had a little bit more on the Highcliffe wreck, and the Juniper wreck as well. It's just that locally it is something that just about everybody knows about.
Maybe best not bother, I think I'm just confusing you.
Shetlander57 17:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you were being clear, but you may have come across one of Wikipedia's more famous conundrums already. "Wikipedia is not about truth, but about verifiability". In other words, if you and everyone in Shetland knows something to be true, its irrelevant if you can't point to a published source that verifies this. I hope you will edit Papa Stour; all I was saying is that if the reference you use to verify the facts is a radio broadcast, it would be interesting to try and find some wiki-guideline about this. There is probably one somehere in the vaults. Ben MacDui (Talk) 17:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Conundrum would be putting it mildly.
As I now understand Wikipedia thanks to your very sensible and honest statement, I'm surprised that anything every gets added, or indeed, to be candid, that half the information is allowed to stay here.
I won't bore you with a long statement on it, but this is the way I see it.
An event happens, and it is reported in the newspapers, perhaps with wrong details, but, that is a verifiable source, so Wikipedia includes that information, and therefore Wikipedia has the wrong information.
In this house there are over 2000 factual books, which must have been written by somebody with personal or technical knowledge of the subject. If not, and they all had to reference other works, it begs the question, "Who wrote the first reference, and if that was a newspaper, who are normally the first to report anything, can we believe anything?"
That sums up the conundrum as I see it, and now I appreciate what a hard time you guys have, it must be very frustrating to see things on Wikipedia which you know personally to be factually wrong, but are tied to the rules in such a way that you cannot correct it.
I'll edit the Papa Stour shipwrecks tomorrow, most likely Canmore is the best reference to wrecks, and any other references I can find, and then you can see if you think it's admissible.
Shetlander57 20:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The changes look good. In the perfect world we'd have the actual date of the radio broadcast, but its a small point. It's my intention to propose this as a Good Article at some point, and I think its unlikely the reviewer will grumble, but we shall see. Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)