Talk:Battlecruiser

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[edit] B Class Article

Okay, so the rticle seems pretty stable now and we've been rated as B class by ships and military history. How do we get to an A class rating? Any thoughts? Getztashida 10:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Ask for a peer review, which will hopefully generate lots of useful suggestions. The biggest single point though is that the article almost completely lacks citations. The Land 11:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image without source

I've come across an image with no source information and a copyright tag that is likely to be incorrect - Image:HMS Hood and HMS Barham.JPG - which was uploaded by someone who has since left the project. It's currently only being used on this page (where I suspect - and hope - it's replaceable with a free image). Since the original uploader is no longer about, and I have no idea what the source for the image might be (if it's a private individual or press agency then the photo is almost 100% certain to be a copyvio and needs to be deleted; if it's a UK government source then it may be out of copyright), I thought I'd ask here to see if anyone recognises it - it does seem a shame to get rid of a decent quality photo if it is actually out of copyright - or whether they could suggest or obtain a suitable free image replacement for this page? Purgatorio 14:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems this image is a low quality reproduction of a photograph that appeared in the central spread of the 6th issue of "The Story of The British Empire Told with Pen and Picture", 11th July, 1939, (Edited by Clarence Winchester, published by The Amalgamated Press, Ltd., London) but I can't tell whether that is the first publication of the original photograph, or the copyright term of said photo. Where the source for this digital reproduction comes from I'm also unsure - one other website has been suggested but the dates show the image appeared on WP first. Purgatorio 18:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WWII German designs

I have two problems with this section. First, the inclusion of the Deutschland class ships: they are very clearly not battlecruisers or any attempt at such a vessel. They were originally named panzerschiff by the Germans, and later reclassified as heavy cruisers. Never were they once labeled as battlecruisers, and the "pocket-battleship" was a foreign media term. Second, the inclusion of the Gneisenau/Scharnhorst in this section. They are also not battlecruisers. I've seen far more sources refer to them as BBs (several editions of Janes, and other scholarly works). In fact, I've never actually read a source labeling them as BCs, just the claim that since the British RN classified them as such, they should be labeled as such. If no one comments here in a reasonable amount of time, I'm going to be bold and remove the section entirely, as it's not relevant here, an article about battlecruisers. Parsecboy 12:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree --MoRsE 12:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Scroll up a bit and read my argument concerning the Hood and Deutschland class. I pretty much agree with your argument, but I have a suspicion that any attempt you make at editing or removing this particular section will be met with a great uproar. I will admit that there are valid arguments to be made for both perspectives; as a compromise I would like to see those arguments presented in the article instead of a few people making arbitrary classifications. However, be forewarned, I think you might be wasting your time here. IMHO, of course. --Dukefan73 01:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I've read through some of the discussion above, (as well as on the Gneisenau class talk page) and have yet to see someone actually provide a reliable source stating that the G/S and Deutschlands were BCs. Only the usual "that's what the RN calls them, so that's what we'll call them" nonsense. There are numerous sources stating the opposite, including Janes Fighting Ships of WWII (1946-47 edition) and Jane's Battleships of the Twentieth Century (1996), among others.
In regards to your argument about the Hood, I've never thought of her as a battleship, but I've also never really looked closely at the ship. I think any capital ship that has a 12 inch main belt and eight 15" guns would be accurately classified as a battleship. Regards, Parsecboy 02:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no question that Hood was built as a battlecruiser. From the 1920s onwards the boundaries between battlecruisers and battleships blur. Our articles should talk about why the lines blurred and the how various ships were borderline, rather than seek to put individual ships in a definite box. The Land 10:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh dear, here we go again. Put down the Top Trumps and read the introduction. How do we classify battlecruisers? Are the relative size, shape, armament and armour important? No. These all change over time. (We don't consider HMS Warrior (1860) a "cruiser" on the basis that she has the displacement of a modern day cruiser.) All ships are defined by their intended and actual usage. In this case the term was coined by Fisher, the originator of the concept. We do not use the opinion of select authors and their statistics to delimit the scope of articles. Wiki-Ed 12:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Read Wikipedia:No original research. So far, the only sources I've seen anyone here (or anywhere else, for that matter) provide have been those stating that the German ships in question were either battleships (G/S) or up-armed heavy cruisers (Deutschlands). How's about you provide a reliable source or two, on the same level of authority as Jane's, stating that G/S and the Deutschlands were battlecruisers. Every argument I've seen seems to be from the editor's gut, not based on any sources (other than, of course, "the Royal Navy said so, and they're the ultimate arbiter of all things naval.") Parsecboy 15:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Warships are defined by role; that is not original research. Throughout history, for a wide variety of reasons, different nations have classified their warships in different ways, but have ended up employing them in the same manner as differently labelled warships in other navies. G&S were not equipped to fight in line-of-battle and were employed in a battlecruiser role (as per Fisher), i.e. a ship which could destroy cruiser-size vessels and run away from battleships. They could not go toe-to-toe with battleships, or, indeed, even another battlecruiser (eg. Renown). The only two sources I have on my shelf which contain historical analysis and deal with multiple classifications (MRD Foot's The Oxford Companion to World War II and D Miller's Warships 1860 to the present) both classify them as battlecruisers. I don't have my Jane's with me, but iirc it is rather fond of figures and pictures at the expense of historical context and description of role. Wiki-Ed 19:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
So Bismarck and Tirpitz are battlecruisers as well? They were intended to be used in the exact same role as G/S: commerce raiders that avoided battleships. They were also fast enough to outrun their British opponents. We might as well list the Iowas as overgrown anti-aircraft cruisers, as that was their primary role, they never engaged Japanese battleships, and only rarely performed shore bombardment duties. Parsecboy 19:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Unlike the other German ships, Bismarck (or Tirpitz) could have engaged a whole convoy, including its battleship escort. But that was not their intended role. With Plan Z in 1939 the Nazis planned to increase their battleship fleet considerably with the H-class design. Had they been able to do so the Bismarck class would have been able to take a part in the conventional fleet actions it was designed for. Incidentally, the speed difference between a KGV and Bismarck class battleship was marginal. On American designs: Wikipedia is the only place I have seen the suggestion that the Iowa class were designed solely to provide anti-aircraft guns for carriers. The sources I have suggest they were a response to increasingly large Japanese designs, which is somewhat more plausible. Wiki-Ed 23:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's not the role Bismarck was used in, was it? Nor were the Iowas used for much more than heavy anti-aircraft support. Regardless, my point about the Iowas was to illustrate the absurdity of using only the role the vessel filled to classify them. According to you, it's irrelevant what the ships were designed for, but the role they actually performed. The G/S were designed to be battleships, but the limited amount of 15" guns forced them to be armed with 11" guns. That, apparently, is irrelevant. Therefore, so is your argument that Bismarck was intended to act in surface actions against an opposing surface fleet, but instead used as a commerce raider that avoided opponent capital ships. Guess I'll be moving the page to German battlecruiser Bismarck. Parsecboy 23:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The Bismarck was designed as a battleship and used as a battleship. Perhaps you missed the bit where it engaged capital ships in battle? In its short lifespan it was only tasked to perform one of many potential roles – that does not mean it should be reclassified. The G&S, on the other hand, had their design changed and, as built, they were unsuited to fighting capital ships. They could not be employed as battleships even if other "vital statistics" might suggest that they should be labelled as such. Their owners appreciated this and operated them as battlecruisers. Conversely, the Iowas were designed and employed as battleships – as part of a fleet. That they did not engage the Yamato in pitched battle is irrelevant. They were designed to be able to do so, were tasked to do so and could have done so if the situation had arisen. Same goes for the Alaskas and their intended target's non-availability. Wiki-Ed 10:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Bismarck engaged British capital ships because it was forced to, not because that was its mission. The Bismarck was not used as a battleship. It was used as a commerce raider, which is, according to you, a battlecruiser role. Perhaps you missed the bit where Scharnhorst engaged a capital ship in battle. And no, the Germans appreciated the fact that they had only a handful of capital ships, and if they concentrated them to perform a fleet action, the British would annihilate them. See, here's the flaw in your logic. Both the Bismarck and G/S performed exactly the same roles during their short careers. Yet, somehow, the Bismarck is a battleship, and the G/S are battlecruisers. The only difference between the two is main armament. And according to you, technical specifications are irrelevant. Parsecboy 11:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
The Scharnhorst was sunk in combat by the battleship Duke of York et al. Reading the specs, though otherwise weel protected her main deck armour was about 2/3 of that of the KGV battleships.GraemeLeggett 12:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
And Bismarck was sunk in combat by Rodney and KGV. And your point is what? Scharnhorst was also by itself, engaged by a battleship, four heavy cruisers, and a half dozen destroyers. I doubt a DoY could've continued to fight under similar odds. G/S had thicker belt armor than Bismarck. So what? Parsecboy 12:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The Bismarck was not forced to engage the Hood and PoW - you’ve asserted that it could get away quite easily. It did not, nor did it successfully perform “exactly the same” role as the Scharnhorst, which, conversely, never successfully engaged a battleship or a battlecruiser. At North Cape when Bey thought he faced a superior vessel he tried to disengage. The same thing had occurred previously when both Gneisenau AND Scharnhorst encountered Renown. Surely if they were such mighty modern battleships they would have engaged an obsolete battlecruiser? You might well have a point that the inferior main armament was what caused them to be employed as battlecruisers, but it was not the only factor (cf. Battle of the River Plate). Wiki-Ed 14:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

It likely could've gotten away, as it did in fact evade the shadowing heavy cruisers after the battle. Lindemann made the decision to engage Hood and PoW, despite strict orders to avoid capital ships. No, Bismarck did not successful carry out its commerce raiding mission, it was sunk before it could. It's irrelevant, just like the fact that the Iowas never engaged Japanese battleships is irrelevant. Well, if you were Bey, would you try to slug it out with the forces arrayed against him? Like I stated above, DoY likely could not have survived an engagement under similar odds. Therefore, that Scharnhorst was sunk by a battleship, four heavy cruisers, and a half dozen destroyers is irrelevant.
As for the engagement with Renown, neither side apparently wanted to press the attack. The ships had a short artillery duel, and after scoring a few hits on each other, withdrew. Given that Lütjens was commanding the G/S at Narvik, his of timidity when in combat with capital ships (i.e., reluctance to engage Hood and PoW) is likely the reason G/S were not more agressive with Renown.
I think the issue you're confusing here is that the ships were not used in the "battlecruiser role" based on capabilities or design, but rather on the strategy forced upon the Kriegsmarine based on the huge numerical superiority of the Royal Navy. Had the German navy completed the H plan, G/S would have likely participated in traditional surface actions with the rest of the German heavy units. This, however, was not the case, and every ship available, from Bismarck down to the Z1 destroyers were used as commerce raiders. Parsecboy 15:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes! The Bismarck could have run, but its commander decided to engage knowing he had the ability to sink or scare off his opponents, which he did. It was not timid behaviour. He did not try the same thing with Gneisenau and Scharnhorst because he understood their capabilities. Moreover, do you really think they would have been effective in a line of battle against contemporary ships that outranged and outgunned them? Sure, they might have been able to operate with the planned 1944 German fleet but only in a battlecruiser capacity. Where G&S had to run from convoys protected by a battleship (see Operation Berlin), Bismarck would have been able to "take them all on", so to speak. With larger guns I agree that they could have been employed differently as fast battleships, but that was not what happened. Wiki-Ed 16:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
No, Lutjens, the admiral in charge of Bismarck and Prinz Eugen, was reluctant to attack Hood and PoW; it was captain Lindemann who gave the order to turn towards Hood and PoW and engage them. Lutjens displayed a similar timidity during the encounter with Renown. Given Bismarck's order to avoid any encounter with British battleships, she would've run just as Scharnhorst did at North Cape, especially if her escorting destroyers had already been forced to turn back. Parsecboy 17:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

You seem to know an awful lot about what happened on the bridge of a ship which went down with both senior officers aboard. That the admiral allegedly paused to consider his options proves nothing and in any case the captain would be the one to order the guns to fire, so that means nothing either. Anyway, I think this discussion could go on indefinitely and you keep straying into counterfactuals. Ultimately if you can provide evidence that Gneisenau and Scharnhorst were employed as battleships (or capable of doing so as-built) then we can consider changing things. Telling us that they possessed certain charateristics similar to a battleship does not help. We all know that. There are lots of other ships which also possessed similar characteristics, be it displacement (converted battlecruisers used as aircraft carriers) or armament (monitors). I don't see any arguments about them. Wiki-Ed 19:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I read about the Lutjens/Lindemann incident somewhere; I believe it was Mullenheim-Rechberg's book. Note that Lutjens also failed to press the attack on a clearly crippled PoW after destroying Hood.
The point is, I don't have to provide evidence that G/S were employed as battleships, because they never would have been in the first place. No German capital ships ever were used in traditional battleship roles. Bismarck never was, unless it was more or less forced to. Moreover, the only reason it did so even then, was because her captain disobeyed the standing order to avoid equal or stronger forces (an order that Scharnhorst's CO obeyed at North Cape, incidentally).
One thing I'd like to point out is that G/S's guns were not the same 11" guns as emplaced on the Deutschland class; they had much higher velocity, which gave them longer range and better belt penetrating capabilities. I don't know how you can make the claim you did earlier, about G/S being outranged by British battleships. Have you forgotten that Scharnhorst made one of the longest range hits in history when she and Gneisenau sank Glorious, some 24,200m? Cleary they don't have range problems. I don't think they were all that outgunned either. I've seen several instances where the G/S's firepower was rated as comparable to the QE and Revenge classes. Note that during the Battle of the Denmark Strait, one of Prinz Eugen's puny 8" shells managed to penetrate to PoWs secondary battery's magazine, but failed to explode. Parsecboy 23:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

PoW was not “crippled”. Not being able to carry on a fight is quite different from being dead in the water. You have contradicted yourself by saying that "no German capital ships ever were used in traditional battleship roles" and then admitting that Bismarck was actually used in that way, even if she had been ordered not to. Also you (or your source) have interpreted the actions of Lutjens/Lindemann as being disobedience, which is possible, but it is equally possible (likely) that in their assessment they thought they could reasonably take on PoW/Hood as an inferior force, which was proven correct. I would agree that German ships were mostly sent on operations of a particular kind due to the strategic situation. However, that does not mean that extant battleships, destroyers and submarines should be reclassifed as battlecruisers because they were used to raid commerce. This is about tactical use as well as strategic design.

Warspite, a British battleship, is generally credited with the longest range hit on a moving target at Cape Matapan. Your point about Prinz Eugen being able to cause damage undermines your argument that the 11 inch guns on G&S were sufficient to put them in the battle-line. It simply illustrates that any ship could hit and cause damage to another (Scharnhorst was under repair for a year after Norway due to damage caused by Glorious’s destroyers), but that does not mean smaller ships will win unless present in sufficiently large numbers. The Battle of the River Plate is a good example of this – a close run for the British. Wiki-Ed 09:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

PoW was crippled in the sense that she could no longer defend herself to any meaningful degree, and it would've been a relatively small task to despatch her.
Bismarck was only used in a battleship role in that she engaged other battleships. It's just the same as stating Scharnhorst was used in a battleship role during the battle with DoY. Neither instance was intentional; the primary role was that of a commerce raider. That they happened to be used to engage an opposing battleship isn't directly relevant. I'm not arguing that every single German ship should be reclassified as battlecruisers because they were primarily used to raid commerce; I'm trying to point out that your insistence on classifying a ship by the role it carried out isn't really sustainable. One thing I've failed to point out thus far is that commerce raiding isn't a battlecruiser role, it's a cruiser role. BCs were designed to hunt down commerce raiders and to perform as fleet scouts.
I'm well aware about Warspite's hit on Guilio Cesare (At Calabria, not Matapan, but this is neither here nor there) Scharnhorst achieved a hit at about the same range, so your argument about them being outranged by British BBs is clearly wrong. Scharnhorst's damage after sinking Glorious was primarily from a torpedo hit, not the destroyers' pop guns.
As for the River Plate, let's talk about the Deutschland class, which we have yet to thus far. What is the argument for including them here? They displaced only some 12,000 tons, much less than even the large light cruisers such as Furious or Glorious. The Counties weighed some 14,000 tons full load. The ships were never intended to do anything other than commerce raiding, a typical cruiser role, as stated above. Parsecboy 12:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
  • “Bismarck was only used in a battleship role in that she engaged other battleships.” Yes that’s correct. We don’t have many examples because it wasn’t afloat very long. When it came up against battleships it fought them. On the second occasion it did not have much choice, but on the first it did. This was battleship behaviour.
  • “It's just the same as stating Scharnhorst was used in a battleship role during the battle with DoY.” No, the Scharnhorst was used to to pick on less well armed ships, not just commercial vessels. When it came up against a more dangerous foe it tried to escape. This happened during Operation Weserübung, Operation Berlin and Operation Ostfront. This was battlecruiser behaviour.
  • Cruisers were not widely used to hunt down commercial ships in World War 2, but this point works in favour of the smaller ship classification argument anyway. And in fleet operations cruisers were used as fleet scouts, not battlecruisers, which were conceived as a means to hunt down said scouts.
  • The argument about range is not “clearly wrong”. You found an example to show that German battlecruisers could shoot as far as British battleships, but are chance shots a good way to compare the weight of broadside? Do you seriously think that a line of Scharnhorsts would fare well against a line of Warspites?
  • Glorious was indeed originally classified as a light cruiser, but she was equipped and operated as a battlecruiser in World War 1. Bona fide light cruisers were far smaller, less well protected and less well armed than the “pocket battleships”, which got their contemporary name for a reason. NB. Don’t compare full load with light load, that’s disingenuous. The Counties displaced 14,000 and the Deutschlands displaced 16,000 tonnes.

I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to point out. You seem to think all ships fit in neat categories. They don’t. This article is about the ships that fell into the grey area between battleships and cruisers. That’s why the ships that are here are here. Perhaps it’s time for another view. Wiki-Ed 17:15, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

One cannot ascribe the decisions of the men in charge of these ships entirely to their design. I've already demonstrated Lutjens pessimisity (or perhaps strict sticking to the primary order, if you like); first by not attacking Renown when he had a superior force, because his stated task was to cover the invasion of Narvik, which he did, and second, by sticking to the order to avoid other British battleships at the Denmark Strait, only to have his order disobeyed by Lindemann.
As for G/S's repeated avoidance of British battleships, let's return to my previous point. Who was in command of the ships at Narvik? Lutjens. Who during Operation Berlin? Lutjens. As for North Cape, take a look at the map here, and you can clearly see that Scharnhorst turned back long before DoY even arrived, after the initial scuffles with the British cruisers and destroyers. That's not "battlecruiser behavior", that's obeying an order that stated that undue risks to one of Germany's last active capital ships were to be avoided at all costs.
You are correct, cruisers were largely relegated to other duties during WWII, but commerce raiding has traditionally been a cruiser role, until it was supplanted by new technologies (submarines, aircraft, etc.) as well as less expensive alternatives (armed merchant cruisers).
Why is Scharnhorst's hit on Glorious a "chance shot" and Warspite's isn't? Yes, weight of broadside is important, however, so too is rate of fire. From this list, we can deduce that, after adjusting for rate of fire, G/S could deliver a little less than 10 tons per minute, compared to around 15.5 from the QEs. Note that the maximum range of G/S's guns is about 10k yards longer than that of the QE. Granted, that wouldn't be particularly important, given that even the extreme ranges of the successful hits for Scharnhorst and Warspite are well within both of the ships' maximum ranges.
My mistake, in regards to Deutschland's full load displacement; I apparently misread the text of the article. Glorious, and her semi-sisters were termed "large light cruisers" and were the evolutionary end-point of Jackie Fisher's ideas. I used them as a comparison because they they were quite a bit lighter than other contemporary British BCs (Lions, Renowns).
No, not all ships fall into neat categories. My point though, is that the G/S have more in common with battleships than they do battlecruisers, and that the Deutschlands have far more in common with heavy cruisers than they do with battlecruisers. We do seem to be at a deadlock. Perhaps another view is needed here. Parsecboy 19:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Since you asked, I have another view. I usually don't post in these important articles because I have nothing to add next to you worthies. But here is my view: This is a silly argument. I know that you guys hate top trumps, but perhaps it has a place in this context (in making this point, only). Battleships were the pinnacle of naval power. They were supposed to be the top ships of their time, designed to take on all comers and win. Bismarck and Tirpitz were designed in such a way. G/S were classified as Schlachtschiffe by the Germans. And they were certainly built like battleships, in hull and armor. If they had gotten those 15" guns, you may not be having this argument right now. As it is, they were commissioned in 1939 with 9x11" guns. Think about that: 11" in 1939? I don't care if they're really good 11" guns with a good rate of fire. These ships were outgunned by every Dreadnought battleship and most battlecruisers. Obviously, we're not talking about ships designed to take on all comers- including battleships- and win. Not in 1939, when the battleship as we know it was reaching it's design pinnacle (or obsolescence; take your pick). More than this, it must be realized that the designers of these ships, upon choosing 11" guns, knew that they were greatly outgunned! Therefore, if there must be a line between "battleship" and "battlecruiser," (and, by WWII, this is a pretty fuzzy line, to be sure.) then these ships are on the other side of that line. Battleship hulls, battleship armor, really good speed, but, in 1939, those aren't battleship guns. Atkindave 19:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Oops, missed this. I would tend to agree. If they had been equipped with larger guns this argument would not be taking place, indeed I suspect the course of history might be somewhat different. However, they were underarmed and this affected their employment and hence should affect how we classify them. Wiki-Ed (talk) 10:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The First ****

The recent edit by "The Land" removes relevent background information sourced largely from Massies general history Dreadnought, and a few other more academic works and replaces it with genralistic editorial.

This is a retrograde step - what this article needs is a systematic adding of in line citations and weeding out of editorial/opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChrisMCau (talk • contribs) 05:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, that wasn't the idea - I think it is important to talk about the strategic context of battlecruiser construction, which explains why the ships were built as they were. None of my changes was based on personal opinion. I have a range of sources, including Massie's books. I agree wholeheartedly about the need for more referencing; I tend to work by writing material first then going through, revising and referencing as appropriate. If you see articles I've worked on like battleship, ironclad warship and pre-dreadnought battleship you'll notice that I am actualyl quite good at writing authoritative articles about types of warship. The Land (talk) 10:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I've made some more changes, mainly to structure the 'post-world war I' material around the Washington Naval Treaty. Since the Treaty and its successors pretty much define the history of capital ships from 1918 to 1939 I think this makes more sense than three sections on different nations which say "They started building some battlecruisers. The Washington Treaty happened. They turned half of them into carriers and scrapped the rest."
Obviously there's a risk of taking out some valuable material when making this sort of change - if I've done that please just add it back in. However I think the article is better for having fewer statements that X ship was 'essentially a fast battleship' or Y was a 'super-cruiser'. I am not sure it makes sense to impose those categories on ships separated decades apart - it makes more sense to talk about the technological and strategic background to the construction of each class or set of classes. The Land (talk) 18:24, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I like the restructured interwar section. It flows better than my effort and put things in a more approriate order. Getztashida (talk) 12:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Glad you like it! The Land 14:20, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

The intro says "They evolved from armoured cruisers and in terms of ship classification they occupy a grey area between cruisers and battleships. ". Agree with the second part, disagree with the first. The first battlecruisers were surely based on Dreadnought, not some old pre-Dread ACs? Greglocock 23:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

That's not at all true. HMS Invincible had a great deal in common with the preceeding Minotaur class of Armoured Cruisers, and was even described as a "Dreadnought Armoured Cruiser" for the first half of her career. The first Battlecruisers were essentially to Armoured Cruisers what the Dreadnoughts were to Pre-dreadnoughts. 88.97.243.109 (talk) 12:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

This is exactly the point which I was going to make but forgot to. The early history of dreadnoughts/battlecruisers is complex and quite controversial. Arguably, Dreadnought was based on the battlecruiser not vice versa! The Land (talk) 13:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)