Talk:Battle of Villers-Bocage

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[edit] Opening moves section - inconsistencies

In this section only A Sqn 4CLY are explicitly stated to have moved from V-B to Point 213. Before I copyedited it out, it then went on to say that 4CLY reconnaissance troop, regimental headquarters and A Company (Rifle Brigade) moved to the side of the road at Point 213. Did they accompany A Sqn or did they follow it? I think this needs clarifying. Furthermore, the last para. in this section states that the 4CLY reconnaissance troop and regimental headquarters were in V-B, so they now appear to be in two places at once. --FactotEm (talk) 10:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I have been waiting before going back over all these sections for my copy of Through the Lens to arrive, which it finally did yesterday. Am somewhat obessesd with this subject now lol

So cheers for the copyedits and pointing out mistakes which i have missed :)

The correct version of events is:

  • A Squadron, 4CLY arrive in VB and then proceed to Point 213
  • A Company, 1RB are behind them and halt just outside the town and park along the side of the road, there officers then proceed up to the hilltop in 3 halftracks
  • RHQ and the Recon troop were following the above two and parked along the main road inside the town but close to the 1RB (few hundred yards or so)
  • B Sqn, 4CLY would be at the western end of the town

The map within the article shows the locations of the units at roughly 0900, however as you have stated its became a bit confusing. Ill try and do some edits later to support you and make it more clear :)--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 11:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

My first ever EC! Yes - I figured out the map made it clearer and re-added the info about which units were parked by the side of the road back into the narrative. I may however have messed up the referencing slightly in the process. --FactotEm (talk) 13:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Its alright, ill go over it when am home and have the books at hand to make sure there all in the right places. I've done that myself on several occasions. :)

I know the peer review said to cut down on the quotes and to write them into the text, however the one which opened up the "Morning Action" section i thought was a nice way of opening. In your opinion is it more effective as it is now or as it was perviously as a block quote?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I do think it looked a bit out of place in its original format, but agree it is quite an effective way to open the section. How about now? --FactotEm (talk) 12:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Repositioned images to enhance impact of opening quote. The images are slightly out of whack further down as a result, but that'll all come out in the wash. --FactotEm (talk) 12:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I think thats spot on and how i should have probably done it to start with!--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Other than the arrival of B Sqn, I'm not sure that the para and associated quote relating to Lieutenant-Colonel Pearce adds anything to the article. I'm inclined to just delete it. I'm out of time so I'll throw it up for discussion here rather than do anything about it now. --FactotEm (talk) 13:22, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hastings, D'Este and A Company 1st RB

I realise I am venturing into a sensitive area here, but I've felt it necessary to re-word the criticism levelled at A Coy, 1st RB at the end of the third para in the Opening moves section. Firstly, the previous version was a little weasley. Specifically it referred to "some" historians saying one thing and "others" saying another, when in fact only one source for each side of the contention has been provided. Secondly, the rationale for A Coy's actions was published by Hastings in 1950, whilst the criticism was levelled by D'Este in 1983, which technically means that D'Este's position is a rebuttal of Hasting's, and should, it seems to me, be ordered this way in the narrative.

I also think that the criticism, at this point in the narrative, is an unnecessary digression (there is at least one more such to my mind, possibly more). I suspect that it is a result of previous disputes. I don't intend to do anything about that now, but as the article develops it seems to me that the best place for such discussion is in the aftermath section. --FactotEm (talk) 18:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Hastings is a devoted account to the actions fought by the battalions of the Rifle Brigade throughout the war, supported by accounts from riflemen who were there. While it is not the official history of the Brigade (which i assume is the 2 volumes published by the Committee Of The Rifle Brigade Chronicle - each division and regiment (in this case "brigade") has there own official history) it provides the indeapth detail which general historys of campaigns etc lack. For example, the British Official History of the Normandy campaign by Major Ellis gives the basic details - to find out the indeapth stuff, orders, losses, actions etc one has to look to these books, the war dairies and other records.

The quotes and other information provided from the D'Este book (which i have yet to read let alone find the time to, lol i have a hell load of others which am reading though) strike me as being very one sided and only looking to show the incompentence of the British forces, which is not true. While the D'Este book is more modern compared to Hastings work, i would'not state its a complete rebuttal of pervious works and it also contains some rather dodgy information.

Currently there are a few cases of instances like this as attempts to remove them or rewrite them have been met by edit wars - hence the compromise at this current momment in time. --EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

If I can offer some friendly advice, I think your opinion on D'Este is leading you down a difficult path. Who's to say that Hastings is not "very one sided" and looking to show only the competence of the British forces? He did after all hold a commission in the Rifle Brigade, and was a training Company commander of the successor regiment the Green Jackets in 1951-52.[[1]] I know you've had this discussion before, but if you allow your opinion on D'Este to influence your contributions to this article you run the risk of straying into issues of WP:OR. Like it or not, D'Este is a source for this event. Unless there are reliable sources that specifically discredit D'Este's work, as opposed to ones that present an alternative viewpoint, all you can do is present the counter arguments from other sources and let the reader make up his/her own mind. It's difficult I know, but that's what this encyclopedia is all about. --FactotEm (talk) 08:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Btw I know its probably no biggy and quite possiably didnt add anything to the article, well anyhoo Moore was B Sqn: 2003 Newsletter, Pg2 The annual get together for No2 troop, B Sqn was partially organised by Moore :) --EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:58, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The reason I took out the statement that Moore was B Sqn was because on p.18 of the Sharpshooters newsletter you reference above it says that Moore was responsible for the shot that forced Wittman to turn back, which then resulted in the action with Dyas. When Dyas' tank was subsequently destroyed he (Dyas) was able to run to another tank that was blazing but with radios still operational and warn B and C Sqn's about the disaster as they were not yet aware of what was going on. You see the inconsistency here? --FactotEm (talk) 07:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC What Dyas believed has no bearing on what B Squadron actualy knew. The implications of all this on the head-on meeting are obvious.Mjkenny (talk) 12:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh i know i currently have a very low opinion of D'Estes book however that was why i opted to have a comprise passage showing both points of view rather then just D'Estes'. Prehaps i could have done so a little bit better but the intention was there at least :)

Yea i see the inconsitancy now, still need to do some copyediting to help sort out the article and make it more clear.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

You might want to *read* D'Este before forming your opinion of the book. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 19:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
heh, same right back to you about say the Official History of the campaign...--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Panzer IV Losses

I am unable to get an accurate number of MK IVs knocked out or damaged during this battle. There are several different claims and none of which match up:

  • Ian Paterson website claims 8 Panzer IVs knocked out inside Villers-Bocage.
  • Fortin claims about 15 MK IV and Tigers knocked out - minus the 6 Tigers confirmed knocked out that would mean 9 MK IVs.
  • Fortys account is somewhat confusing, its either 3 MK IVs in total or 3 MK IVs during the afternoon fighting and two knocked out approaching the town making a total of 5.
  • 4CLY War Diary claims 3 MK IVs.
  • Taylor tallys the British claims as:Sharpshooters claimed 4 Tigers and 3 MK IVs, Rifle Brigade claim 1 Tiger, 1/7 claim 4 Tigers with there 6 pounder AT guns and a further Tiger and MK IV with Piats. Total 10 Tigers and 4 MK IVs ... one would assume tanks have been claimed twice and/or misidentified as Tigers when in fact they were MK IVs but that still doesnt really answer the question.
  • the article itself for ages has claimed 5 MK IVs knocked out.

I guess the quesion is what should be the correct way to approach this?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 20:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

If the recollections of those in the battle (from the Sharpshooters newsletters) show uncertainty as to whether the tank being engaged was a Tiger or a MK IV then I suspect that we can never know a definitive figure. As a reader I would be content just to know the total number of tank casualties - around 14 - 15 right? Is it really necessary to quantify by type? If you really want to go into this level of detail though, how about phrasing it along the lines of "Reports of German tank casualties vary, but around x Tigers and y MK IVs were knocked out", using what seems like the best source for those figures and adding a more detailed explanation of the differences as part of the ref? --FactotEm (talk) 09:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Point 213 section

This section is actually quite small and consists of short sentenced paragraphs. As part of the copyedit process I'm thinking that the best way to improve it is to roll the sentences into a single para. and remove the section heading so that it becomes the last para. in the Morning action section - the events described all take place in the morning anyway. Also, as fascinating as the quote from Lord Cranley is, I have some problems with it. First, I have Neillands "The Desert Rats" which says (p223) that Cranley's last message was "Burn your tanks and get out". Second, I find it hard to believe that Cranley, in as much personal danger as he was, and with one of his squadrons being torn to pieces, wouldn't have occupied RT bandwidth with something more germane to the predicament he and his troops were in (such as "Burn your tanks..."). I'm inclined to change it to the Neillands version. Comments? Objections? Better Ideas? --FactotEm (talk) 14:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Yea i think it should probably be rolled into one section, i do need to add bits and bobs to that section but i dont think its going to be that much information to expand it considably.

I have copies of the pages of Neillands book which covers this battle. If i recall correctly its made up from two peoples accounts of what happened that day and then there is the Sharpshooters mag which states his last transmission is what is in the article. In which case my impression is that probably no one reallys knows, prehaps he said both or niether.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Edit: thinking about it, prehaps it should be better split but covering the late morning and the fighting on the ridge. So:

  • The ambush
  • Point 213 and late morning fighting (temp title lol)
  • Afternoon fighting

Something like that, so the main two sections - the initial 15 minutes and the 6 hours afternoon battle are seperated by this portion of time where there was little fighting.

Your thoughts?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The day's fighting seems to comprise two clearly definable sequences; Wittman and co's actions at the initial ambush and his foray on into V-B; and the later, larger scale battle for the town itself. I think the article would be well served if it was organised as such, but if you think there's a better way I'm good with that. The main thing is to avoid short sections like the current Point 213 one. --FactotEm (talk) 07:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

No i agree, am just wondering where the interim period (the rounding up of the men on the ridgeline and the arrivial or more forces before the fighting really kicked off) should go.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 09:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that the capture of the ridgeline is a concluding action from the morning action, whilst the gathering of reinforcements is an introduction to the subsequent action. No? --FactotEm (talk) 09:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep thats sounds good to me.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 09:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dyas' action in V-B

I've removed the dispute over whether Dyas actually met the Tiger head on from the main body and placed it in the footnote, largely because the prose read awkwardly. The other problem was the statement that the wreckage of the Tiger was nowhere near the wreckage of Dyas' Cromwell. This statement was unsourced, and anyway Dyas' account states that his Cromwell was destroyed but that the Tiger wasn't, so why would the wrecks be close together? This confusion is compounded by the fact that a previous statement that the Tiger was subsequently disabled by a shot to the tracks by a six pounder has been removed from the narrative. --FactotEm (talk) 11:09, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The wrecked Tiger is in a location well away the position of the Cromwell and. It could not meet a Cromwell 'head-on' when it was rendered immobile before it could get to the Cromwell.Mjkenny (talk) 12:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I've reformated the above comment for readability. Notwithstanding the difficulty in finding sources that place Wittman's wrecked Tiger with any degree of certainty, I understand now the problem with wreck location and the implication for Dyas' account. If this can be reliably sourced then we can either remove the details of Dyas' action completely, or move it into the footnotes as an alternative but conflicted detail. --FactotEm (talk) 12:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


Dyas simply got the order of events wrong. When you are under fire, wounded and have just watched your friends being killed then a little confusion can be expected.

The fact is Dyas went after Wittmann is a tank that allowed him little chance of success. He was brave and nearly lost his life for his trouble. Over the years the story took on a life of its own. The simple explaination is that after the 'problem' with the crew member Dyas pulled out to attack the Tiger. Dyas actualy says he thought he was facing the rear of the Tiger. In his latest book Henri Marie (Villers Bocage Normandy 1944. Heimdal 2003. now only available second hand at £60 upwards) comes to the same conclusion.Mjkenny (talk) 13:24, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tags

I've copyedited the Opening moves and Morning action sections, and whilst there is always room for improvement, I'm wondering if the copyedit tags for these can go? --FactotEm (talk) 11:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Disabling of Wittman's tank

I'm not sure why there is no evidence to support the possibility that Wittman's tank was disabled by a six-pounder. This was previously sourced to Forty p65, but was edited out. I don't have access to Forty to check. The article on Michael Wittman also includes an unsourced claim that it was the work of a 6 pounder. Any chance of clarifying/confirming this? --FactotEm (talk) 12:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The confusion is this. Taylor was the first to put Wittmann being knocked out by a 6pdr at the crossroads. Wittmann himself claims he was knocked out by a 'heavy pak' in the centre. Wittmann never mentions the meeting with the Fireflies. That is the 'evidence' for a 6pdr hit. Mjkenny (talk) 12:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
There is some controversy over this, Taylor claims that the 6 pounder took out Wittmanns tank. Forty also states the same but his book, like Taylor, contains no footnotes so we dont know were each piece of information came from, he may have researched it and claimed so or it may have been a simple copy and paste.
When looking though the book on the Rifle Brigade by Hastings, he claims that the 6 pounders knocked out halftracks/armoured cars etc but i dont recall him mentioning a Tiger. Although his work isnt that indeapth in places nor is it the battalions war dairy so things may have slipped through i.e. what the guns total tally was etc.
The person who edited this, when i have been in contact with him via private messages on a forum he told me Taylor stated so because he believed the account of Dyas (we will come to him in a minute).
He stated,

"The problem is the 2nd kp. Tiger standing in the middle of the high street and Wittmann's own account. There was also another Tiger '231' that is shown knocked out in the area where the 6pdr crew made the claim. Thus Wittmann's '212' sits where he says he was knocked out (and thus the Dyas claim must be wrong as Wittmann never made it back to where Dyas was) and another wreck( '231') is in the area around the 6pdr."

I will however check out the full text of Wittmanns propaganda speech what he recorded that night (he goes through what he did), ill either post it in full here or sum up (depends how i feel :p).
As for Dyas, well it seems some of his own unit doubt his story as evident in some of the articles in the newsletters from the last few years - in paticular i believe it was Lt-Col Peace who mostly doubted him - although his accounts of the action are unsupported in some places i.e. him claiming Arid froze up etc which is not supported by Arids own crew members .... its hard to dig through everything here to find the truth.
Ill try and dig through everything i have on this battle later on and post here so we can discuss the event.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 13:37, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
There is no truth. There are several version, all valid. All we can do today is eliminate the impossible. That will still leave a lot of unresolved contradictions
Taylor is the source of the claim that Wittmann was knocked out 'at the crossroads'. This is a case of believing Dyas and thus having to put the Tiger in a location where the Dyas version says there should be a Tiger. It is directly contradicted by Wittmann's own account(Agte page 328 in the report by Dietrich dated 13/6/44) that states clearly he was knocked out in the centre of Villers. Because of a bend in the road in front of the position of Dyas's Cromwell it is impossible for the 2nd kp.Tiger in the high street to have engaged Dyas 'head-on'. It would be wise to consult Gary L Simpson's book 'Tiger Ace' (page 320)
"Question No. 4) Did Wittmann and Dyas really meet in the middle of the street like two gun fighters of the old American West?
The answer is yes, this is absolutely true, as Pat Dyas stated (during his lengthy interview, June 1980), that he was stalking Wittmann for about five minutes with tensions running extremely high within his Cromwell crew. By this time, the streets of "Villers-Bocage" were filled with black smoke from the three burning R.H.Q. Cromwell tanks, and that everyone involved were on pins and needles. Suddenly, Wittmann's Tiger I loomed out of the thick black choking smoke with Dyas being able to pump two rounds of 75mm AP into Wittmann's machine. Both main gun rounds bounced off the thick hide of the Tiger I with no effect! Estimated range was 70-80 yards!
Wittmann fired one round of 8.8cm AP and penetrated Dyas's Cromwell turret through the right front turret, and out the right rear"
Simpsons book is garbage and can not be used as a source I am only using his explaination of what Dyas said to him.
In 1980 Dyas had a different version of events. Remember the 'burning HQ Cromwells' were behind Dyas and at an angle to the High Street of Villers (Taylor pg.14) Dyas was also within yards of his starting position when he was knocked out. It would take him seconds to reach the position where his Cromwell was disabled. Because of the bend in the road any Tiger coming at Dyas would only be 'head on' for a few moments. It is also revealing that although Simpson's Book has the photo of Dyas's Cromwell he (Dyas) does not seem to know it is his tank.
There are a couple of good photos here
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=21545&st=60
There is no source for there being any 6pdrs in Villers at the time of Wittmann's attack Mjkenny (talk) 13:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
OK. We have a reliable source that states a 6-pdr engaged Wittman's Tiger, and I would say that that is enough to include it in the narrative. I don't think we don't need to second guess our source's source. Is your contact quoting another source re: the location of the knocked out Tigers and the consequent implication for the statement about the 6-pdr action? If so, we can also include that, either in the narrative or, if there is less weight attached to it, as part of the footnote. Alternatively, I'm wondering if your contact is conducting his own research, checking the accounts against the maps and coming up with his own theory. There's nothing wrong with this, but it does tend to disqualify the theory as reliably sourced for Wikipedia's purposes. Remember, it's not so much the truth that counts here as what can be reliably sourced. --FactotEm (talk) 14:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
There are no supporting accounts. There were 2 6pdrs and another is shown emplaced further east and to the south (hand drawn map of Capt Milner RB. page 38 of Henri Marie, 'Tigres Au Combat' Heimdal 1993) Even if the 6pr at the crossroads did get into action and knock out a Tiger then it most likely was Tiger '231' seen being towed in this area by Tiger '222' (Taylor 80/81) Agte has an account by a member of Pz Lehr who reported that there was a Tiger knocked out in the area(Rother: "In front of Villers Bocage I saw 2 Tigers to our left sitting at the edge of the forest. One of them had definitely been knocked out.The crew were still there. Several were wounded, unfortunately one was dead." Agte pg 323) . No member of Wittmann's crew recieved any injury but 2nd kp report 1 driver killed. The towing Tiger is indeed '222' and thus this can not possibly be the Tiger used by Wittmann in Villers.Mjkenny (talk) 13:13, 25 April 2008 (UTC]


Wittmann's Own Words

"....Drove up the colum, surprised the English as much as they had me. I first knocked out two tanks from the right of the column, then one from the left and attacked the armoured troop carrier battalion in the middle of the armoured regiment. I drove toward the rear half of the coloum on the same road, knocking out every tank that came towards me as i went. The enemy was thrown into total confusion. I then drove stright into the town of Villers, got to approximately the centre of town where i was hit by an anti-tank gun. My tank was disabled. Without further ado i fired at and destroyed everything around me that i could reach..."

Provided by Taylor, Pg 38

Taylors version of events (one should note the guys from the Sharpshooters in there newsletters seem to believe that this is the best account of the fighting)

Page 31-32:

Talks about Wittmann coming head first with Dyas, destroying his tank and heading out of the town and disabled by the Tilly-sur-Seulles junction.

Page 33:

Has a diagram placing Wittmanns tank at the junction, literally across the road from the 3 M5 Honeys and near the AT guns and destroyed carriers.

Page 34:

"Besides Wittmann's account, a radio report logged at XXX Corps at 0945 hrs claimed a that a Tiger had been knocked out by an anti tank gun to the east of Villers. The only abti-tank guns incontact with the enemy on that side of town were the two 6-pdrs of A Company of the 1st Rifle brigade. Wittmann himself states that his tank was immobilised by an atni tank gun. This gun (Taylor is talking about two photos of a 6 Pounder by the destroyed transport facing towards the down i.e. back down the main road into Villers-Bocage) is pointing in approximately the right direction towards Villers. If the intention had been to fire the gun at Wittmann when he had first appeared coming down the road from the direction of Point 213, the gun would have been trained and the trails deployed in the opposite direction."

Pages 66-67

has several photos of the same Tiger, one facing away from the town centre i.e. as if it was leaving the town and knocked out. The photos themselves leave no clue to whose tank it was as the numbering cannot be seen nor is there any other identifying marks. Taylor states: "..a forth Tiger stands with its gun pointing awat from the square. It may be the one hit by Sgt Brammal although, if this was so, it has since been moved."

He contines: "...Some sources claim that this is Wittmann's Tiger although contemporaty accounts would appear to contradict this,"


Forty

Page 65-66

Essesntially repeats the same story, Wittmann heading out of the town - struck by a 6 Pounder and immoblised ... shot at everything in sight and then left the tank

Ellis, the Campaign Official History

Quite rightly doesnt go into who nailed one Tiger tank - he covers the battle and the British losses and then moves onto the next part of the campaign (ala all the OH do, the simpely cant go into minute detail about every action, thats what the divisional and regimental histories are for)

Hastings (not Max, the guy from the Rifle Brigade)

Page 351

Sgt Bray claims engaging and hitting 2 half tracks and an armoured car.

Not mention of Tiger tanks, however this isnt the war diary of the battalion nor is it the official history of the battalion (didnt feel like one from the bunch of regimental OH i have read, i believe the OH is the one by the Rifle Brigade chonicle and is in two volumes - in London (only copy i have been able to find)

Photos of Wittmanns Tiger in Villers-Bocage

From a discussion on a forum several years ago:

discussing Wittmanns Tiger being in the centre of town and photographed...

"Nope, What you see on this pic is the tank No. 121 of Moebius 1st Coy. Wittmann was with Tiger 222 in Villers Bocage. For pics showing Wittmanns disabled 222 in front of the store Huet Godefroy in the Rue Pasteur, either look for Patrick Agte "Michael Wittmann und die Tiger der LSSAH" or Wolfgang Schneider..."

Patrick Agte - Michael Witmann and the Waffen SS Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandart in WW2 Vol. 2: p. 241 Wolfgang Schneider - Tigers in Combat II: p. 281 for Wittmanns tank

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=13;t=010660--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 13:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


his is not a question about Wittmann's tank but about one of the 1st kp.Tigers. The reply correctly states that Wittmann's Tiger is in front of the store. Mjkenny (talk) 13:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


J.L Cloudsley Thompson

Sorry it was Thompson not Pearce i was thinking of before when i stated someone doubted Dyas claim.

Page 18, 2003 Newsletter http://www.sharpshooters.org.uk/Newsletter/Newsletters/SYA%20Newsletter%202003.pdf

"Charles Pearce wrote that he was ‘puzzled over Pat Dyas and his exploits’6.I myself, do not believe that Pat’s gunner got out ‘to have a pee’. After our escape, Pat told me that he had been delayed for a few seconds before following Wittmann’s Tiger because his gunner – who was killed a couple of minutes later – had taken a moment to calm down. Nor, for a number of reasons, do I now think that Pat met the Tiger ‘coming back’ and head on. There was insufficient time for this to have been the case. It seems much more likely that Wittmann had traversed the turret to fire over the back of his Tiger before proceeding further into Villers-Bocage."

R. Moore MM

Same page, same newsletter

Moore claims:

"It is certain that some measure of retaliation took place – several German tanks were destroyed by ‘B’ Squadron. Both Bill Cotton and Bobbie Brammall scored hits. My tank was responsible for denting Wittman’s driver’s visor which sent him back to confront Pat Dyas – hence the expression “That bloody man Moore!”

My opinion from this evidence is that Wittmann was not disabled in the centre of town but on the way out, he may have fired over his rear deck to nab Dyas but he was on the Tilly junction when knocked out.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 20:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Whilst there are no visible markings on this wrecked Tiger in Villers the front bow plate is unmarked on the left hand side(see Taylor pg 67/70). As both 1st and 3rd kp.Tigers had a Unit emblem in this location by default this must be from 2nd kp. Their markings were on the right hand side of the vechle and this is where the Zimmeritt is damaged. There were no other Tigers in Normandy on this date and all the photos show that every SS 101 Tiger had a full set on markings. The camouflage pattern visible on this wrecked Tiger matches that shown on Tiger 212 from 2nd kp
How did a 2nd kp.Tiger get left in the middle of the high street? No 2nd kp. Tiger (other than Wittmann's) went into Villers and Wittmann says he was disabled in the centre of town. Mjkenny (talk) 13:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I've updated the narrative to reflect both events according to the sources. The contradictory accounts are now part of the footnotes. The Dyas events are, I think, adequately handled by introducing them with "This move is said...". As for the location of Wittman when his tank was disabled, the more reliable sources tend towards the road junction. This might change if we can get hold of the books by Agte and/or Schneider and see exactly what their accounts report (I don't think we can cite the forum itself). At the end of the day though, the exact location is a small detail, and I think the account as it currently stands, i.e. leaving discussion of this issue to the footnotes, is perfectly acceptable for this article. Do we have a source for Wittman's account though? Currently his statement is unsourced. --FactotEm (talk) 07:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
His propaganda speech is shown in full on Page 38 of Through the Lens by Taylor.
I think you have done a spot on job the way you have currently wrote it up.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 07:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


Michael, to answer you question no I don’t know.

I don’t have the Viller-Bocage photos in front of me at the moment so cant compare camo patterns on one tank over another but I can’t comprehend how one tank with no markings on it automatically makes it a 2nd Kompanie Tiger.

There are two Tigers knocked out and a MK IV in the town centre, both accounted by the afternoon fighting. However the one with no markings and claimed as Wittmanns is facing east and is further east down the street. I guess the question would be how did it get there if Wittmann states he was disabled in the centre of town?

The other question, which comes up, is why didn’t the 4CLY claim the Tiger which had ambushed them as one of their kills or made the claim for disabling him? If he was in the centre of town it would have had to have been them.

We have some members of the 4CLY who are somewhat hazy on the turn of events however it seems the most believe the Tiger retreated, something Germanys famous panzerace probably isn’t going to admit to? Although at the same time it seems Moore is correct when he doubted Dyas version of events and the time he (Dyas) believed elapsed.

The question crops up about Tigers 222 and 231, the two runners who were attacking Pt 213 … how or why did one of them then work its way towards Villers-Bocage to be knocked out by the 6 Pounders when the British were still on the ridgeline and were not cleared out until more of the 101st arrived…--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

That 2nd kp.Tiger: All SS 101 Tigers were marked on the vertical bow plate. There were three companies(kp.) of 14 tanks. The 3 command Tigers were not so well documented and we do not know the system they used but luckily for us the Tiger in Villers is not a command vehicle.

1st kp.had a shield enblem on the left hand side and a lozenge on the right hand side. 2nd kp. had the shield on the right hand side. 3rd kp. had the shield on the left hand side.

The wrecked Tiger facing the wrong way (i.e.towards Dyas) has no markings on the intact left hand side of its bow plate (close up Taylor page 70)thus it can not be from 1st or 3rd kp. The position (on the wreck)where the markings would be on a 2nd kp.Tiger has been damaged so we can not see any insignia. The other 2 Tiger wrecks in the high street (there were 3) are clearly marked as to 1st kp. Therefore the damaged Tiger in the centre of Villers can ONLY be from 2nd kp. This is beyond any dispute. Wittmann said he was disabled in the centre of Villers which is the position of all 3 wrecks really. The salient point is Wittmann did not say he was disabled on the outskirts of Villers. Dancing on the head of a pin? Maybe but let us recap. Wittmann was in a 2nd kp.Tiger. Wittmann says he was disabled in 'approximately' the centre of Villers. There is a knocked out 2nd kp.Tiger sitting in just such a position. All the other Tigers (3 from 4) in Villers are clearly marked as from 1st kp. The evidence confirming Wittmanns statement is all there. Mjkenny (talk) 14:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, i follow now regarding the symbols! I imagine that does seal the fate of where Wittmanns Tiger ended up.
As this is the wiki, i imagine adding something like such would be speedily deleted, is there a source regarding teh Tiger markings we can use?
Ill address 3/4 Tigers bit later on when i can look at the photos etc, am a bit confused over this at the momemnt.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure I fully follow the details here, but can I advise some caution against marrying fact A with fact B and coming up with an unsourced conclusion C if that's the way this is going? As the narrative currently stands it states only that Wittman's Tiger was disabled by an anti-tank gun, sourced from Wittman's own account. I don't think we need be too concerned with where or what gun. It might be better to summarise the contradictions as part of the footnotes. Dyas' account is relatively famous, so it needs to be included, though again it might be better as part of the footnotes along with a discussion of the contradictions. Fair? --FactotEm (talk) 15:30, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not really bothered about unsourced quotes as this is not on the main page. Having to rely on published work means 9 from every 10 sources are wrong and that condems the article to the same fate. You would not believe some of the rubbish still being published on this engagement. As to A+B=C all I can tell you is that wrong facing Tiger is without any doubt from 2nd kp. Anyone saying that Wittmann used another Tiger and that is the one that was knocked out at the crossroads is going to be a long time looking for a single shred of evidence to support this claim. I have every known photo (so far published) and the 2 German newsreels of the scene. I would not recomend Forty as having any special insight as to Villers Bocage itself and it contains a number of errors. Anything that says Wittmann knocked out 3 Stuarts on his way into Villers is simply recycling Taylors work. I sort the accounts in 3 categories. 1) is the '3 Tigers and a PzIV version'. This is the old pre-Taylor works where they rely on the photos showing 3 Tigers and a PzIV! 2) Those after Daniels work and they inevitably mention his list of casualties and say there were 3 Stuart tanks knocked out on the bend. 3) Original works that seek the truth and do not rely on previous accounts. In my opinion this is only Taylor, Agte and Henri Marie. To clear up any confusion here I am not criticising Taylor simply because he believes Dyas. I do not agree with his conclusion but that does not change the fact there is a there is a lot of new information in his book.Mjkenny (talk) 17:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is part of an article Taylor did for After The Battle Magazine No. 132. It is a caption to the photo he originaly used on page 66 of his book.

ATB Magazine 132 (2006) page 31

"Another alternative, not so easily discarded, is this Tiger, dis- abled further up the high street, between the town hall and the Place du Kiosque, and with its gun pointing towards the top-end of town. There are a couple of features that imply that this is at least a 2. Kompanie vehicle. Tigers of 1. Kompanie had the I. SS-Panzerkorps sign on the front right side (beside the driver's vision aperture) and the schwere Panzer lozenge on the left (beside the hull MG position), usually (though not always) painted onto a patch where the Zimmerit had been removed. Tigers of 2. Kompanie and 3. Kompanie, by contrast, had no Panzer lozenge but only the I. SS-Panzerkorps sign. the 2. Kompanie having it on the machine-gun side, the 3. Kompanie on the driver's slot side. Though the turret of this tank is badly burned and there is staining around the hull MG, the area around the driver's block appears unharmed, but there is no sign of the I. SS-Panzerkorps badge there. Hence this tank must belong to 2. Kompanie. Also, the Zimmerit pat- tern of this tank conforms to that of a known 2. Kompanie vehicle. However, the sequence of events of the battle in the town as reconstructed by Daniel leads him to conclude that this too cannot be Wittmann's and for him to stick with his original hypothesis. (BA)"

I suppose it fits the 'published source. criteria.Mjkenny (talk) 19:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Am confused here, 3 M5 Honeys were most certinally taken out. The 4CLY claim that number lost - however that is for the full day.
There is a photo of at least one M5 on the road and were the other should be are obsucred from the angles of the photo iirc The tank would have to have been destroyed by Wittmann as it would be pretty suidical to be there once the German infantry entered the town in force and once the second attack started.
So what happened to this other Honey, were was it destroyed if Wittmann was not the culprit? Who has claimed otherwise?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 20:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The photos in Taylor only show 1 Stuart. Pages 33,35 and 36 for the lead Stuart Calamity Jane II. The second Stuart is referenced via a screen capture from the Germans Newsreel footage and is on page 23 l/h side. It shows Calamity Jane in front of it so it is the 2nd Stuart. The other screen grab on page 23 is claimed to be the third Stuart behind the other 2. Not so. There is an edit on the original film between the second Stuart and the sequence for the 'third' Stuart. It is not one continious take. If you look at this sequence in its entirety you can see that the house to the left of the 3rd Stuart is nothing like the houses on the road into Villers. What is more the trees and the background do not match. The 'third' Stuart was filmed somewhere else other than behind the other 2. The half track in the background fitted the descriptions of the MO's half track being knocked out here so it was a simple mistake to see what you want to see.

The following is a quote from an unpublished manuscript written during October / November 1944 from a personal point of view by C.W. Pearce whilst recovering from wound :


"The country from St. Martin-des-Besaces was very fine: a series of rolling hills untouched by the fighting. Once the armies move forward from the initial bridgehead near Caumont, ground was covered fairly rapidly until the next hold up near Vire and north of Falaise. We eventually came up near Villers and saw John Simmonds' tank - a Honey - burnt out and marked Tpr. Fox's grave. It was obviously amazing how John Simmonds and the operator had managed to get away. Also one of the M.O.'s half tracked ambulances was burnt out there - the crew also got away but one was captured later. The town itself was absolutely unrecognisable. The new streets had been made by bulldozers and all the tanks knocked out in the town were buried under the rubble. We went through the town to the scene of the great battle of 13th/14th June. A number of tanks had been moved, but the shambles was still quite amazing. There were a number of graves -not many marked- and 4 tanks knocked out. A Sqdn. must have put up a pretty stiff fight but of course were hopelessly outnumbered. We did not really get a lot of information as so much had been moved, but the most notable was that on the objective - a crest - there was an sunken track running up from the east side that could not be covered by the tanks.: in fact they probably never knew it was there. No doubt the Germans used it to very good effect A little thing like this cannot be seen on the map, and I suppose just had to be accepted as one of the major risks of war"

Next a quote from Carpiquet Bound A Pictorial History Of 4th CLY 1939-1944, (1997): Chapter 12.10 "As Brigadier Hinde had been up in his scout car and had said that the town must be held at all costs. Major Aird set about reorganizing the defence. Some of the Queen's infantry had arrived with anti-tank guns and these, with tank troops were dispersed round the roads leading into the Square. To the south Lt. Simons, in charge of a troop of Honeys, had had his tank knocked out by a mortar, so his patrol was drawn in. Simons himself had had his wounds dressed by French peasants, who looked after him until he was recovered enough to escape, but he had little fresh information to give on his return. 'C' Squadron remained on the high ground to the east of the town."

I think there you have the location of the 3rd Stuart.

If you look in these posts http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=21545&st=40 post 52 shows Milners Map Post 54 shows road behind the 2nd Stuart.

http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=21545&st=80 post 82 shows that there is no half tack or armoured car wreckage behind the Sherman OP tank. http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=21545&st=100 post 116 explains the Stuart positions.

Daniel Taylor has several posts in the thread.Mjkenny (talk) 23:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

the problem is Mike, is that under the general rules of the wiki we need published sources or decent websites to back up what we have stated otherwise the call it original research and delete it. etc
Is there any published accounts (books, war diaries etc) which confirm some of the details in the photos i.e. that 3rd Stuart not being knocked out by Wittmann etc?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The ATB Magazine 132 with Taylor's update of his book mentions the 'third' Stuart problem. Taylor is now not certain it was behind the other 2. (page 34/35). It was Daniel who first said there were 3 Stuarts on this section of the road.Mjkenny (talk) 13:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok so we have published evidence which supports Wittmann being in the town centre when knocked out, publshed evidence that some think Dyas may be wrong, photographic evidence to support some stuff, Taylor published account doubting weather there was 3 Stuarts/Honeys at all and published material which states that the 6 pounders didnt engage the Tigers and XXX Corps log which has them record a tank engaged something like 30 minutes after the ambush took place.
That i think warrants the suggested outline below--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

PS: Do we have any sources for the third M5 which was destroyed, as mentioned before by a mortar round? Also do we have a source for the identifying marks on the 101st Tigers?


hand drawn map of Capt Milner RB. is on page 38 of Henri Marie, 'Tigres Au Combat' Heimdal 1993. ISBN 2840480271 This map shows Butler and his 6pdr some distance from the crossroads.

' Carpiquet Bound' Chiavari Punlishing ISBN 0952059266. W D Allen & R F H Cawston 1997 has this about the third Stuart:

Chapter 12.10 "As Brigadier Hinde had been up in his scout car and had said that the town must be held at all costs. Major Aird set about reorganizing the defence. Some of the Queen's infantry had arrived with anti-tank guns and these, with tank troops were dispersed round the roads leading into the Square. To the south Lt. Simons, in charge of a troop of Honeys, had had his tank knocked out by a mortar, so his patrol was drawn in. Simons himself had had his wounds dressed by French peasants, who looked after him until he was recovered enough to escape, but he had little fresh information to give on his return. 'C' Squadron remained on the high ground to the east of the town."


A Record of the 4th County of London Yeomanry And The 3rd/4th County of London Yeomanry in The Campaign of France From 5th June 1944 to 15thAugust 1944

(Written during October / November 1944 from a personal point of view by C.W. Pearce whilst recovering from wounds)

Pearce is explaining the re-entry into Villers in August.

"We eventually came up near Villers and saw John Simmonds' tank - a Honey - burnt out and marked Tpr. Fox's grave. It was obviously amazing how John Simmonds and the operator had managed to get away. Also one of the M.O.'s half tracked ambulances was burnt out there - the crew also got away but one was captured later"

Below is how Cloudsley-Thompson reworked his old 1956 article when writing his book in 2006. He also changed the earlier use of 'Pat' to the nickname commonly used for Dyas in The Regiment, 'Dong'.

John Cloudsley-Thompson article in Royal Armoured Corps Journal 10. 1956

"A dreadful noise was going on in the town so I decided to go back beside a wall at the rear of the houses and try to reach 'B' Squadron. As we started off I saw Pat, on foot, in the distance. He had hoped to shoot the Tiger from behind, but had met it coming back after knocking out the rest of R.H.Q. It fired once, killing his co-driver and gunner, but he and the driver managed to bale out unharmed. "


Sharpshooter. Memories Of Armoured Warfare 1939-45 by John Cloudsley-Thompson. 2006 ISBN 9781905703012

"A dreadful noise was going on in the town so I decided to go back beside a wall at the rear of the houses and try to reach 'B' Squadron. As we started off I saw Dong, on foot, in the distance. He had hoped to shoot the Tiger from behind but his shots bounced off. In reply the Tiger fired once killing Dong's wireless operator(loader) and gunner; he and the driver managed to bale out unharmed. "

The Tiger marking system is explained on page 27 of 'Tigres Au Combat'. Henri Marie, Heimdal 1993. ISBN 2840480271

Mjkenny (talk) 21:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


This is how Wolfgang Schneider summed up the Wittmann myth:

The action of the 1st and 2nd Companies of the schwere SS-Panzerabteilung 101 was everything but awe-inspiring. SS-Panzerkorps propaganda then gave a decisively misleading account of it. How can this be explained? First, we have to remember that - unlike the Wehrmacht - the Waffen-SS did not have a experienced tank arm. Compared with the brilliant exploits of the «old» (Wehrmacht) panzer divisions, the Waffen-SS could not hope for similar successes. At a pinch, the II SS-Panzerkorps's action in Russia, in the southern sector, during Operation Zitadelle in July 1943, commands respect. So with Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann, Sepp Dietrich tried his utmost to manufacture a hero. On the Eastern front, the Knight's Cross was awarded for «kills», as were Oakleaves. This is all the more astonishing as, both in the Wehrmacht tank arm and among the tank destroyers, many soldiers had much higher scores. As we know, the legend of the "Second World War tank commander with the highest number of kills" has been kept up to this day. This judgement is completely wrong, in terms both of the actual score and the tactics employed! A competent tank company commander does not accumulate so many serious mistakes as Wittmann made.

From Page 159 Henri Marie's Villers Bocage, Normandy 1944. Heimdal 2003. ISBN 2840481731 Mjkenny (talk) 17:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Proposed new morning section structure

Am thinking we should fully show both sides of what is recorded to have happened within the town ala the above discussion.

thus starting off with Wittmann mounting the tank, the warning given to the Rifle Brigade like what is currently there and then state something like there is two versions of what took place.

1) - Taylors version of events, as also supported/copied by forty 2) - Photographic evidence along with reports etc which dont all tally with the above two

thoughts? --EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not so sure it would need two separate sections. I think that the contradictions can be incorporated into the narrative/footnote structure easily enough, along the lines of...
  • Keep the 1st para as is.
  • Combine the 3rd & 4th paras and move it up one to read "Wittman and his crew were eventually forced to abandon their Tiger..."
  • Continue this para along the lines of "Accounts vary as to the exact details of Wittman's disengagement." and continue with the 2nd para account that relies on Dyas' version.
  • Complete the para with the alternative version based on Wittman's account of where his tank was disabled, and rely on ATB 132 as the source which allows inclusion of a discussion about photographic evidence.
This covers the pertinent info without distracting from an article which is after all about the almost day long battle of V-B, not how/where Wittman's tank was disabled. Elegant? --FactotEm (talk) 14:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
It was just a quick thought before, yea if it can be kept in one simple section and it all covered and referanced then yea i dont see any problems with that :)
I also agree that we should not distract from the what the battle is, as you said a day long battle and not a 15 minute (tops) action. As far as am aware there is nothing too controversal about what happened in the afternoon, the majoirty of condtrictory reports are surrounding the morning and Wittmann.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Handling Wittman's disengagement in the Morning action section

I've updated this section to reflect the discussion about where Wittman's Tiger was disabled. It still needs work to tidy up the prose, but it would be useful to have confirmation that the section now covers the salient points. If I can get this then I'll revisit the narrative to tidy it up. My main concern now is that it might be an unnecessarily detailed digression. It might be better handled by simply stating in the main article that Wittman was forced to abandon his tank having destroyed x number of vehicles, and move the discussion of the disputed accounts to the footnotes. --FactotEm (talk) 07:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Plans section

Ive just edited the article so that the British and German forces section are now subsections of a newly created one. Its only a temp name so please change it to something more fitting.

I have created the order of battle for the battle and placed it on its own page so i will be cutting down these two subsections soon.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 10:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] information placeholder

Just storing information here for use at a later date, information removed from infobox:


28 carriers or halftracks[1]
27 tanks and 3 Scout Cars[2][3]
1st Rifle Brigade:
80 men killed, wounded or captured[4]
1/7 Queens:
128 men killed, wounded or captured[5]
4CLY:
100 men killed, wounded or captured[6]
20 Cromwells, 4 Fireflys, 3 Honeys
5th RHA:
2 Cromwell OP, 1 Sherman OP


2nd Panzer Division:
Unknown
1Panzer Lehr Division:
3-9 Panzer IV[7]

s.SS-Pz. Abt. 101:
6 Tiger I knocked out[8]
1 Tiger I damaged[9]
23 men killed and wounded[10]