Talk:Battle of Fort Pillow

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[edit] Re-organize for Neutrality?

"Not all of the prisoners who were shot were black —Major Bradford was apparently among those shot after he surrendered[11]— but Confederate anger at the thought of blacks fighting them and their initial reluctance to surrender (because many of the black troops believed they would only be killed if they surrendered in Federal uniform) resulted in a tragedy."

Since this refers to the actual events of the battle, rather than the aftermath, it should be moved to the previous section. It also seems too certain in its description of events that are disputed. I propose it should be re-written as follows:

The Union defenders were initially reluctant to surrender. It is unclear if they held out to the end, or if they did surrender and were then massacred. The black troops may have believed they would be killed if they surrendered in Federal uniform. Major Bradford was alleged to be among those shot to death after surrender[11].

I also notice that there are different numbers in this section than in the Bedford Forrest entry. If the proportion of blacks who died is the same as the proportion of whites who died (as per the Forrest entry) that suggests no massacre took place targeting blacks. On the other hand, the numbers in this article suggest that a much smaller proportion of black soldiers survived than white soldiers, which suggests that they held out much longer and/or were massacred. Perhaps some of the content from the Forrest article should be brought here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dherb (talk • contribs) 23:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Evidence

There is no evidence that Forrest participated in, authorized or allowed a massacre of union soldiers at Fort Pillow. From union reports immediately following the battle and from interviews after the war, the following facts have come out. 1) The garrison was made up of relatively inexperienced militia, a few regulars and black troops. Neither the commanding officer nor his second in command were experienced officers. 2) The commanding officer was killed fairly early in the battle. 3) The commanding officer (before his death) and/or the second in command either allowed or provided the men with whiskey from the stores in the fort. Many of the survivors state that a general state of drunkeness prevailed among the white soldiers and some of the blacks. 4) A charge was leveled that Forrest used a temporary truce t manuver his men in to better positions (a violation of the laws of war). In fact, as the union officers themselves testified, Forrest's men had achieved the position in question BEFORE the truce was declared. 5) When Forrest's men finally stormed the fort, there was no general surrender. There was, without a doubt, great animosity felt by the confederate soldiers for the black troops and it is certainly true that some atrocities occurred; but there is no evidence that it was widespread or ordered by Forrest or any of his officers. 5) While some of the union soldiers (both black and white) did surrender, many others retreated from the fort and fell back the the small beach under the bluff. They expected to be taken off by the gunboats in the river, (as previously arranged between the gunboats captain and the officers in the fort) but these were driven off by the fort's own guns, now manned by the confederates. At any rate, they continued to fight and were shot down where they stood. 6) The allegation that the confederates buried alive many of the wounded union soldiers (both black and white) is easily refuted. The burial parties were made up of union prisoners. If union soldiers were buried alive, it was done by their own troops.

I intend at some point to visit this page and add additional information and do some work here. You are correct in many of your points. This is of course a very controversial subject and great care will have to be taken in keeping it NPOV. Part of the problem is that some of the investigation of this incident took place during the war while emotions were high and investigators had obvious reason to use the investigation to inflame public opinion. I believe the evidence points to a huge chaotic mess of a battle. Both commands lost complete control of the battlefield and it deteriorated into scattered bands of men running around in the woods killing each other with no control. Forrest ended up cutting down the US flag to signal and end to the battle since no Union commanders were actually able to call a halt to it. Forrest would be the first to tell you that losing control of the battlefield and his men was his responsibility, but that it is different from promoting a massacre. Hopefully in the future, if it hasn't been done already by someone else, I can make an attempt at this page while keeping it objective.Ark30inf 04:35, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The above is clearly wrong. The quotation from the Confederate trooper who was there on the day shows (1) that more blacks than whites were killed after surrender and (2) that Forrest actively participated. As well, how can the above writer tell that "atrocities" were committed, yet argue (as extenuation) that they were not widespread. Surely the point is that there should have been none at all, if the troops were well conducted. As well, the sobriety and experience, or lack of said qualities on the part of the Union troops has really very little to do with the behaviour of the confederate troops, unless one thinks it is an extenuation to blame the victims. As for the difference between losing control of hte battlefield and promoting a massacre, I would suggest that in this case, that might be a distinction without a difference. Finally, while it may seem credible to the writer that scattered, disorganized bands were running around in the woods, some proof of that would be nice. No report of the battle which I have seen has any such action.

Theonemacduff (talk) 04:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

--greenFyre 13:54, 28 September 2005 (UTC) I removed one of the three occurances of this sentence "Many accused the Confederates of perpetrating a massacre of the black troops, and that controversy continues today." One of the other two should prbably also be removed, but as one is embedded in a quote I leave it to someone else to decide which should go.

Akafish77 (talk) 08:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)If you are talking about evidence, you should look at this page. Its one of the links, but doesn't appear to be used in the article. http://www.civilwarhome.com/ftpillow.htm I think that it is interesting that out of the 11 Union references, only 1 talks about the massacre. I would have thought that the majority of them would have. It is also interesting to note that the one that makes this claim also states that the Confederacy had 7500 men,there were 2500, and that the Union troops tried to surrender immediately. According to the rest of the accounts the Union troops were very reluctant to surrender.

[edit] Mergefrom Fort Pillow

Cleraly the details of the battle should be moved to this article. The only question is whether to leave what is left of the Fort Pillow article as a short article that covers Fort Pillow beyond this battle, or to merge that portion into this article as well and leave only a redirect. Caerwine 02:24, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Partical Union Casualty list {from Offical reports}

- 2nd US Light Colored Artillery: - Killed: - Lt Hunter; - Sgt Mills-killed while calling for mercy; - Pvt. Louis Ingraham-killed while calling for mercy; - Pvt. Peter Lake-killed while calling for mercy; - Pvt. Anserson Smith-killed while calling for mercy; - A. ALexander-sutler to "D" Battery {Civilian who fought as part of the Fort Garrison};
- Wounded: - Pvt. John Kennedy-escaped.
- POW: - 1st Sgt Joseph D. Fox
- Missing: - 1st Lt. A. M Hunter-seen in river
- Force and casualites-1 officer and 34 men. 6 enlisted men killed; 4 enlisted men wounded; 1 escaped; 5 POWS; 1 officer/18 men missing. - - 6th US Heavy Colored Artillery: - Killed: - Major Lionel F. Booth; - Captain Delos Carson-Company D; - Lt. Peter Bischoff-Company A; - Lt. John D. Hill-Company C; - Lt. John D. Smith; - Sgt Major Hennessey-killed under flag of Truce; - 1st Sgt Weaver-Company C; - Sgt Melville Jenks;
- Wounded: - Captain Charles F. Epeneter-Company A-wounded and Captured; - Lt. Henry Lipperet-Company B-wounded and escaped;
- Lt. Thomas W. McCLure-Company C-wounded and captured; - Lt. Daniel Van Horn-Company D-slightly wouned and escaped;
- Survivors: About 15 men-all but 2 wounded-escaped
- - 13th Tennessee Cavalry: - Killed: - Major William F. Bradford-reportably killed after being captured; - Captain Theodore F. Bradford; - Lt. J. Ackerstrom-Company E-{acting Regimental Quartermaster}-reportably wounded and burned to death; - Lt. Barr of Company D; - 1st Lt. Nicholas D. Logan-Company C -died POW Macon Ga 9 June 1864; - Lt. John H. Porter-died of wounds after exchanged; - Lt. Cord Revelle of Company E-killed after being captured; - Lt. Wilson of Company A-wounded and killed after surrendered;
- Wounded: - Lt. Mack J. Leaming-wounded and exchanged
- Survived: - 1st Lt. F.A. Smith-Company D - 2nd Lt. William Cleary-Company B
- - 24th Missouri Volunteers: - Captured: - Captain John T. Young -

[edit] Why is This Even Here?

Why is this within the categories of "Naval Battles during the American Civil War?" No Naval forces on other sides were involved in any kind of military action. The Union side had ships, yes, but they did not participate in the battle at all. The Confederates had only the Cavalry under Forrest, The Unions had Atillery and various others, but even the page itself admits no naval forces were involved. So why is it in this category? PRhyu (talk) 10:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)