Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 22

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Media Matters for America

I encountered a reversion stating that "back-and-forth spats" with "partisan organizations" weren't the "right direction. I think that Media Matters for America is notable, and since two of their top front-page articles cite issues with the accuracy of certain media reports about Obama and the Rezko case they are certainly relevant. If anyone has a problem with this please explain. Wnt (talk) 19:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Media Matters is a blog.... Is it really a reliable source? --Bobblehead (rants) 19:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Media Matters is reported on by third party media sources.[1] Wikipedia describes it as "a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization founded in 2004 by journalist and author David Brock." You're telling me that's a blog? I didn't even purge the crummy references with "blog" in their name from the Jeremiah Wright controversy and nobody commented on my mention of them in the talk page. Wnt (talk) 20:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Hey, Wnt. I'm glad you expanded the paragraph a bit, but don't understand why back-and-forth spats between background partisans like Media Matters for America and John Kass warrant such detail. The Media Matters source (whose reliability I'm sure some might challenge) defends Obama, but the sentence "Obama is accused of no wrongdoing" already covers the point they're trying to make. Shem(talk) 20:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I think it's worth mentioning when a talking heads on two major news outlets each falsely accuse Obama of essentially taking a bribe in two different ways, each based on what turns out to be clearly false information, when these inconsistencies are each noted by a well known "media watchdog" organization. It speaks to the general reliability of the press in the United States and has an impact on the Obama campaign. Wnt (talk) 20:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Brevity is important. The two sources you mention, even granting both are WP:RS report different facts. And a hundred other sources each report their own variation or opinion. We can't discuss every nuance of what every source purports, and the "Obama is accused of no wrongdoing" does a good job in summing up the media consensus. When there's any doubt, fewer words is always better than more words in an encyclopedia (or in any good writing). LotLE×talk 20:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Anyone can register as a 501(c)(3), so that's not a very good indicator of reliability.But anywho, their reliability is probably something that shouldn't be discussed on this talk page, there's a whole noticeboard for that. If Media Matters is complaining about inaccuracies in a reporter's story, shouldn't that be covered in the article about the reporter, not the person who is the target of the inaccuracies? --Bobblehead (rants) 20:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the standards for 501(c)(3) are fairly strict (501(c)(6) is much easier to get). I am happy to accept that Media Matters meets WP:RS, and moreover that a MM refutation of another source casts that other source as last reliable. However, we can avoid the issue by simply omitting all of the back-and-forth over he says/she says on exact land values and the like. LotLE×talk 20:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The paragraph I had was this. (I tried putting up half of it with no mention of MM and they reverted that immediately also, claiming the remaining sources were "partisan". Like I can cover a partisan dispute without mentioning some partisan sources?

The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer and Obama fundraiser, Tony Rezko. This deal provoked media scrutiny of Obama's relationship with Rezko, a top adviser to Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich, who was convicted in June 2008 of fraud and money laundering. Although no wrongdoing was alleged in relation to his campaign, Obama has donated $150,000 in Rezko-related contributions to charity.[1] In an interview with CNN host Glenn Beck, Chicago Tribune columnist John Kass stated that Obama had received "around" $300,000 or "maybe $150,000" discount on the purchase and that Rezko's wife had paid $300,000 more. Media Matters for America criticized this statement, citing reports that Obama made the best offer for the property and Rezko's wife paid the $625,000 asking price for the adjacent land and subsequently sold five-sixths of it for $575,000.[2][3] The group also disputed Mitt Romney's statement to Fox & Friends that Rezko financed Obama's house, citing a $1.32 mortgage Obama and his wife took out with the Northern Trust Company.[4][5]

From this I managed to slip one fact in past the deletionists - that Obama didn't just pay off all his debts and show up with a $1.6 million house without taking out a correspondingly expensive mortgage. The current version does not mention that Fox and Friends (like Wikipedia) made it sound like this was some kind of a gift from Rezko. I still think that apparent news sources are lying about this guy is worthy of note. Wnt (talk) 20:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

You didn't have to "slip it in" past anyone; standing alone, it's a perfectly relevant fact to include. So far's the lies go? Sure, people're going to tell lies about him (he's a presidential candidate), but are we to say it's notable every time someone does such? Shem(talk) 21:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm with Shem here. I'm sure that some major news sources are either lying or doing really bad fact checking. While that is perhaps notable in articles about those sources, it's not a matter about Obama. There are going to be hundreds of thousands of misreported facts in the course of the subsequent campaign (about both candidates, FWIW)... we can't have the biographies details every incorrect thing said by every mainstream source. An encyclopedia needs to float at a slight detachment from microscopy about such details. LotLE×talk 21:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. We don't need to cover every single organization's coverage. Fishal (talk) 23:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
How anyone can consider John Kass to be an anti-Obama "partisan" is beyond belief. He is the head political reporter for the Chicago Tribune and he is equally critical of both Republicans and Democrats. He has extremely harsh words for "the Illinois Combine," a term he coined to describe the alliance between Illinois Democrats and Republicans to share power and wealth, trade favors, and in general, do everything that we despise politicians for doing. Kossack4Truth (talk) 14:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Personal Life and Rezko and Blagojevich

The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer and Obama fundraiser, Tony Rezko. This deal provoked media scrutiny of Obama's relationship with Rezko, a top adviser to Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich, who was convicted in June 2008 of fraud and money laundering.

The second sentence above says that Blagojevich was convicted of fraud and money laundering. Either the relative clause should be moved to the end of the preceding sentence so that it clearly refers to Rezko or the reference to Rezko's connection to Blagojevich should be removed. Given that this article is about Obama, not Rezko, and that this sole mention of Blagojevich refers to his association with Rezko, not Obama, I'm going to remove it.

If someone sees fit to restore the mention of Blagojevich, please do not place it immediately before an adjective clause that libels him. ForDorothy (talk) 02:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I was wrong. Ignore me, please. ForDorothy (talk) 02:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Shame on you Wikipedia, Barack Obama is INTERRACIAL

Barack Obama is Interracial (half-White, half-Black) and should be recognized as such. A Wikipedia contributer said that "we are obligated to accept whatever the well-sourced sources are publishing, if we choose to accept their word." What are these "well-sourced sources"? Associated Press (AP), CNN, etc.? If so, THEY ARE WRONG. Are you going to post that Barack Obama is (only) African-American based on AP, CNN, etc., or use the BEST source for his racial background, his birth certificate and his own biography? I have been disgusted with AP, CNN, and other news agencies constantly referring to Barack as only African-American/Black. Are both his parents Black? No. One is White, so Barack is ***INTERRACIAL***. I thought that at least Wikipedia would report the facts correctly, but I see that Wikipedia also is an UNRELIABLE resource and tainted by the mass media instead of being an independent, accurate source of information. Shame on you Wikipedia! This is a perfect example of the "one-drop rule" that carries on from America's racist past. Despite Barack having a White parent and a Black parent, I have never heard any news agency refer to him as White. They always refer to him as Black. They (and Wikipedia) are completely denying half of Obama's racial makeup, essentially denying that his mother ever existed. Is the media calling Obama "Black" because his wife is Black? If so, that argument cannot hold. I am Interracial (half-White, half-Black) and my wife is Filipino, but neither I (nor anyone else) can call myself (me) Filipino. I am Interracial because of my parents' ethnicity. Even if Obama more closely identifies himself with African-Americans, that does not define his racial identify. As another poster mentioned, if I am one race (i.e. White), I cannot call myself Asian even if I completely embrace Asian culture. We need to identify Barack Obama as Interracial (half-White, half-Black), a true unifier of the two races in the U.S. that have been divided for too long. Wikipedia, it is unbelievable that this is even a discussion topic. Report the facts and stop being wrongly influenced by the major (polarizing) news agencies. Khjp95 (talk) 18:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

They're perpetuating racism. So, in essence, they're all racists. 71.195.153.149 (talk) 18:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

We're not here to make social policy. He self-identifies as African American, the Senate Historian refers to him as such, the New York Times report of his election as first black president of the Harvard Law Review uses that terminology - etc. No one is denying his Caucasian parent - in fact for a very long time this article included a quote from him that said "That my father looked nothing like the people around me—that he was black as pitch, my mother white as milk—barely registered in my mind." and I was sorry to see it removed because I think it addresses the issue well. Tvoz/talk 19:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This article doesnt stand a chance

Im sorry to say this, I really am. I cant quite believe that a consensus couldnt even be reached on the single issue we voted over. Obama is at the Most important stage of his life and we cant even edit the article because of the pov pushing on both sides. If this continues I will seriously consider having the article reassessed. --— Realist2 (Come Speak To Me) 21:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Been there, done that. All links to it have been airbrushed out of the infobox, but if you already know what happened you can still find it: [2][3]. Andyvphil (talk) 23:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)