Talk:Baptism of Jesus

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Was Mary, mother of Christ present at the baptism of Christ by John? The question came up in Bible study. The Article "Baptism of Jesus" tends to indicate no. Some one believed one of books not in the Bible says she was. What is the answer?

There is certainly nothing in scripture about Mary being there, and the wording of the Gospels makes her presence seem unlikely. It is entirely possible that there are stories that placed Mary at the event, but at best these would be apocryphal. - SimonP 04:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Harry Anderson Baptism of Jesus artwork...

The name Harry Anderson in the caption for the artwork links to a wiki article on a Harry Anderson, but the article seems to be on an entirely different Harry Anderson who was born in 1952, not the artist Harry Anderson who was born in 1906 referenced here ( http://www.christcenteredmall.com/stores/art/anderson/anderson_biography.htm ), who would seem to be the Harry Anderson in question who did this artwork. Could this be fixed? I'm going to unlink the article from Harry Anderson's name in the caption for the artwork for now. Twilight 15:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edits -- RFC

I tried to shift the language towards NPOV where possible: changing "most"s to "some"s, for example, when different schools of thought are clearly in conflict. If any changes are objectionable, please indicate below. I have also tried to remove or qualify uncited speculations (e.g., that Luke's "crowd" did not respond to the voice of God from the heavens -- since the pericope ends, we have no indication of the crowd's response!). Again, if this needs discussion please indicate below.

Also (to those writing articles of this nature), please use a first initial for E.(duard) Schweizer to distinguish him from both Alexander Schweizer and the far better-known Albert Schweitzer, sometimes spelled 'Schwiezer.' jrcagle 19:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Edits -- RFC

In the "John's purpose according to the synoptic gospels" section, I have removed the following:

1)

"The quote, coming from Isaiah 40:3, is taken somewhat out of context, and the original referred to making straight the paths of God. In Isaiah, the passage was referring to how escape from the Babylonian Captivity would come about, whereas the synoptic Gospels have reinterpreted it as being a more metaphysical escape."

and replaced with

"The quote, coming from Isaiah 40:3, refers in its orginal context to making straight the paths of God."

My choice to do so is not simply POV (although it happens to agree with my POV!), but rather that the passage Is. 40 - 42 is highly disputed in terms of original intent; it makes no mention of Babylon; and the passage contains clear references to a coming servant. Hence, rather than drag the reader into a protracted discussion of Isaiah's near and far eschatology, I thought it best to mention the recontextualization in Matthew and let those interested pursue the topic on their own.

2)

"The quote otherwise has the wording of the Septuagint, in preference to that of the Masoretic text."

with

"The quote uses the wording of the Septuagint, typical for New Testament quotations of the Old Testament."

The Masoretic Text dates to AD 900 or so, and was not available to Matthew for quoting! (I don't know about the wording in any of the Dead Sea Scrolls). The majority of textual quotations in the NT are from the OT, so Matthew's choice is not surprising.

3)

"There are actually two justifiable punctuations for the quote, the traditional one being the voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare ...., whereas, based on the Hebrew, modern scholars feel that Isaiah was intending the passage to read the voice of one crying: In the wilderness prepare ...., which quite substantially changes the meaning. The latter meaning is far less able to apply to John the Baptist, and hence this interpretation is not favoured by those of a more fundamentalist persuasion."

with

"There are actually two justifiable punctuations for the quote, the traditional one being the voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare ....; the other reading, the voice of one crying: In the wilderness prepare ...., which substantially changes the meaning."

I actually disagree that it "substantially" changes the meaning, but I'm willing to concede the point. However, the Hebrew Mas. Text does not prefer either reading (qol qore bamidabar panu = A voice of one crying in the wilderness); both could readings could easily point to JtB; and the last clause of the original strikes me as POVish.

I'm certain that this topic is worthy of some discussion...

jrcagle 01:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


4) Removed

"The Gospel of the Nazarenes, a text which has very strong similarities to Matthew, adds a clarification to this story, stating that it was because of Jesus' sinlessness that John felt he was the one who should be baptised."

with no replacement. I was unable to find any such reference in the Gospel of the Nazarenes (text here. --jrcagle 01:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


The changes look pretty good, and make sense to me. It seems to help clarify and focus the text a bit better.

Twilight 14:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

On (2) what is meant is that the (Greek) Septuagint was used rather than the normal Hebrew version of the text (which was later standardised as the masoretic text). This is viewed as highly significant in academic circles because it implies that either Jesus' words are rewritten and edited by the Gospels rather than directly quoted, or that Jesus quoted the Greek rather than Hebrew, which would be extremely odd for someone who supposedly has a Jewish background speaking to a supposedly Jewish audience. Clinkophonist 22:50, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

On (3) the difference in punctuation is the difference between

A - Prepare the way of the lord - cried out by someone in the wilderness
B - In the wilderness, prepare the way of the lord - cried out by someone

B has the significant difference that it additionally refers to the current state of affairs as a wilderness, and does not describe the person doing the crying as having to be in the wilderness (i.e. does not necessarily equate so obviously to John the Baptist or other anchorites/hermits). Clinkophonist 22:58, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

On (1) by missing out the context it makes it seem as if Isaiah clearly refers to the coming of God in a messianic type way, wheras the passage in Isaiah is much less clear and most Jewish and Secular scholars see it as referring literally to the historic Babylon. Hence leaving out the context is quite biased. It would be akin to quoting George Bush like this and not mentioning the circumstances of such a quote. Clinkophonist 22:58, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jesus's baptism

Please give reasons for removing work here, otherwise will be promptly re-inserted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Traveller74 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

The "work" I removed on 21 February (perhaps the same as someone else removed on 13 February or earlier) was:

Contrary to baptism practices of the thirteenth century onwards, and works of art of the period (as shown)<ref>Jules Corblet, Histoire Dogmatique, Liturgique et Archéologique du Sacrement de Baptême, volume II, opening words. See also [[Baptism#Apostolic period|Baptism, Apostolic period]]</ref>, historical evidence shows, more likely than not, Jesus' baptism was performed by immersion. The fact that Jesus was baptised in the Jordan River, where John the Baptiser frequently performed baptisms, and who was known to select an area where there was a lot of water, something required for immersion ({{bibleverse||John|3:23}}). Indeed the very meaning of the Greek ba´pti•sma used in the New Testament refers to the process of immersion, including submersion and emergence. Moreover, baptism by immersion is unquestionably and universally accepted as the normal practice for Christians during the apostolic period, which is supported by the [[Didache]], the Catholic Encyclopedia<ref>(''New Catholic Encyclopedia'', 1967, Vol. II, p. 56)</ref> and many historians (see [[Baptism#Apostolic period|Baptism, Apostolic period]]). Faithful first-century followers of Jesus would have followed his baptism example, as they did with other aspects of his life.

The last paragraph in the section on Jesus' baptism, which this "work" contradicts, makes it clear that there is no evidence that Jesus' baptism was by total immersion, since partial immersion was practised in Early Christian times and continued to be prelevant down to the eighth century. The word βάπτισμα does not necessarily mean total immersion ("the process of immersion, including submersion and emergence"): the corresponding verb is used twice in the Gospels to speak of a partial immersion or a mere washing. The Didache is quoted in the "work" in a manner that hides the fact that it expressly mentioned the conferring of baptism without total immersion. Lima 16:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] John the Baptist

The long section on John the Baptist should be summarized since that material is already (or should be) covered on the John the Baptist page. Jonathan Tweet 03:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] historical perspective: yes, it's historical

I added reference to historical opinion on the baptism. This is one event that even skeptics admit is true. Since it stands out as one of few events that even more skeptical historians give credit to, that deserves a mention. Jonathan Tweet 01:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The reader deserves to know that this event stands out from other Gospel events as getting lots of credit from historians. Lima doesn't like the idea that historians agree on the historicity of few events in Jesus' life so he deleted that information from the lead. I could scrounge up a reference myself, but I'm tired of Lima following me from page to page and messing with my edits. Is there anyone else out there who can help out with a reference? Jonathan Tweet 14:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] dissimilarity and embarrassment

A well-meaning editor added "embarrassment" to the criteria of "multiple attestation" and "dissimilarity." Unfortunately, the criteria of embarrassment and dissimilarity are essentially the same. I'd fix it myself, but I'm in a dispute with this editor at Purgatory, so I'd rather not mess with it if I could avoid it. Jonathan Tweet 00:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The criteria in question are indeed essentially the same. There is a Wikipedia article on "embarrassment", but, I think, none of "dissimilarity". The dispute you raised elsewhere is surely no reason why you should not work here or elsewhere in accordance with Wikipedia rules (including that about verifiability). Please go ahead. Lima 04:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
In fact, the definitions of dissimilarity, discontinuity, embarrassment, and contradiction are so hard to get straight that I'm not sure whether this page should be referring to the criterion of "dissimilarity" or "embarrassment." Jonathan Tweet 03:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I said: Go ahead. Not: Go back. Reverting is not a way to cooperate to solve a problem. Lima 04:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The quote from the Gospel of the Hebrews is relevant in its own right and should go in the "noncanonical" section. The commentary on the quote doesn't seem to rise to the level of notability, though maybe it would go on the Gospel of the Hebrews page. Jonathan Tweet 14:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The point of baptism

If this baptism ritual is so important, why is there no mention of its purpose? Why were people being baptised by John at this time? Whas is an egyptian ritual? Was it a greek mystery? Some explanation is required. Mike0001 11:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The second sentence of the article states, "In [the synoptic gospel accounts], John the Baptist preaches ... baptism for the forgiveness of sins" which seems relatively straightforward to me. A note in my Bible translation (New American Bible, footnote to Matthew 3:6) states, "Ritual washing was practiced by various groups in Palestine between 150 B.C. and A.D. 250. John's baptism may have been related to the purificatory washings of the Essenes at Qumran." -- MatthewDBA 12:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section "Jesus' baptism"

This section is overlong, and I see the reason why; paragraphs 3 to 13 are written like a sort of essay, completely wrong tone, etc. I, personally, found nothing in it worth of inclusion, but it's such a large block of text that I thought I'd get people's opinions before excising it. Dr. eXtreme 18:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

No objections. I'm gettin' rid of the chunk. Dr. eXtreme 12:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)