Talk:Ban Ki-moon

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Contents 1 wish list 2 Secretary General 3 Reference #1 non-denominational Christian? 4 TO RANDOM USERS 5 Naming the critics 6 Concerning some inaccuracies re the confirmation of Ban ki-moon as Secretary-General designate 7 Ban or Ki-moon? 8 His religion 9 His Real Religion 10 Note on Japanese delegation 11 Rockefeller link 12 thanks 13 Name 14 Vandalism? 15 Official travel 16 Redirect survey 17 Atheist? 18 Miscellanea contents is not suitable for category in 'Term as Secretary-General' 19 POV tag at the criticism section 20 Saintjust's absurd threat 21 Tag 22 Image Problem? 23 Secular?? 24 Vandalism prevention 25 It’s only a paper moon? 26 First Americans

[edit] wish list

• "He paid off the other countries with grand pianos and such like to assume the title of Secretary General of the United Nations." I assume that this is a joke. It needs to be given a source or it should be removed.
• political affiliation?

- Ban-ki moon is not an official part of, but is strongly backed by the Uri Party, namely by Prime Minister Han Myung Sook: Click here for Han Myung Sook's profile.

• role in notable incidents of 04-05?

-Ban-ki moon in late 04: See here. Ban-ki moon commends soldiers for roles in Iraq War: See here.

• he is openly running for SG of the UN. See holbrooke, washington post.

69.170.64.188 01:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)Craig

[edit] Secretary General

1. Ban's 'win' on the UN Security Council straw vote should be included, me thinks.211.27.57.199 11:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference #1 non-denominational Christian?

I was not able to find any reference to his religious beliefs on the reference listed. Is there another reference that supports this claim?

The "Personal" section has been subject to a lot of strange anon activity... there was a reference listed, namely this one, which identifies Ban as a member of the "group without church" or "churchless movement," aka mugyohoe (무교회). The Wikipedia article on this interesting East Asian movement, popularized in Korea by Ham Seok-heon and others, is oddly located at the Japanese name thereof, which made the paragraph somewhat convoluted. I had added some background information on the group's development in Korea; all of this was removed and replaced by an unreferenced statement that Ban has no religious preference -- that in turn was removed per policy, leaving us with no information at all. I'm not sure where to go from here; I can't find anything in Korean or English that supports the statement in the Asianews article, so perhaps it is better to leave religion out unless a more definitive source can be found. -- Visviva 08:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Most likely Ban is not a Unificationist. The source that claim this solely depend on the fact that he confesses as a "non-denominational Christian", which is often a codeword for Unificationist. However, it is NOT always the case. And the claim that he's a unificationist came from one source.

But look at this: Some informed UN sources are concerned that Moon lists his religious affiliation as "non-denominational Christian," a code word often used by the "Moonies" for the Unification Church. [...] Although Ban Ki-moon and Sun Myung Moon are not related, some UN members may sense that there is something amiss about the Bush administration's strong support for the South Korean Foreign Minister given the close links between some Bush officials and the "Moonies."

It's still "alleged".

Added to that, Wayne Madsen is NOT a credible source. Here's one example.

If he's a Unificationist, how come no one mentioned it when he became a South Korea government minister? If true, this would have made him the highest-ranking Unificationist in governement anywhere. The U.S. has 3 state legislators who are definitely members, and the State Departemnt has Josette Shiner, whose "membership" is not clear (all we know for sure is that she was a managing editor of the the UC-owned Washington Times).

Perhaps the confusion arose over the Korean naming system. The two relevant men are:

1. Moon, Sun Myung (or in Western order Sun Myung Moon
2. Ban, Ki Moon (Western order Ki Moon Ban).

One of the articles cited above refered to Mr. Ban by the family name "Moon" even though the word moon is the part of his given name. It's as silly as referring to Tommy Lee Jones as Mr. Lee! :-) --Uncle Ed 21:52, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I am a Korean and there is ABSOLUTELY NO allegation toward Ban relating to unification church in Korea. If he had any connection to the unification church, he wouldn't be a Korean foreign minister at the first place. Because roughly 50% of Koreans are christian and they wouldn't condone moonies to become a foreign minister. I think this is simply caused by mistranslation. --Crmtm 15:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I have never noticed a Korean name with the two given names written together with a hyphen. Mostly it's three distinct words; Kim Jung Il for instance. Is this an effort to downplay the "Moon" part? Steve Dufour 03:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC) p.s. Nice to bump into you again Ed. And thanks for your contributions Crmtm.

It's quite common, and is (all other things being equal) the preferred format on Wikipedia; see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean). See Category:Korean people for numerous examples: Chun Doo-hwan, Go Im-pyo, etc. -- Visviva 08:12, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Steve Dufour 15:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

In a correction, The Economist states that Mr. Ban is not a member of any church or religious group because he believes that faith is an individual matter. Please refer to http://economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8525903. Krballer 16:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Can someone please point out where in the asianews article it mentions his religious affiliation? I know someone earlier in this discussion mentioned it, as well it is cited as a source in the article for mentioning his alleged group without a Church ties, but I read the article and it does not mention anything concerning religion. Was the article edited or was it a mistake? And in response to the debate about "non-denominational Christians," this is a common word for churches that wish to preach a general protestant Christian message without getting tied down in the semantics of different denominations, and is in especially common use amongst international/multicultural churches (within the United States). At least it is where I come from, the American midwest. -Jaardon 23:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TO RANDOM USERS

Consider where you first found the source before listing or referring to it on ANY article in Wikipedia. A V12 ON THE ICE 03:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Nelson NYC, please do add that link in the page again. specifically, Will UN HIRE another crook?

You know that isn't a reliable source, nor one that is credible for wikipedia. Obviously, this should be treated as vandalism, if you do not respond. Login to earth 20:35, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming the critics

Let's avoid phrases like this:

• has been criticized
• concern has been expressed

We need to identify the people who have criticized him or expressed 'concern'. I think this is a guideline (see Wikipedia:Weasel words. --Uncle Ed 15:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concerning some inaccuracies re the confirmation of Ban ki-moon as Secretary-General designate

The page shows Ban ki-moon as the 8th Secretary-General. Actually, he was confirmed by acclamation by the General Assembly yesterday. The President of the Security Council for the month of October read the note (letter) from the Security Council, and the President of the General Assembly then asked the pertinent question, and without objection, Ban ki-moon was confirmed to take office for a term of five (5) years beginning 1 January 2007 as 8th Secretary-General of the UN.

These are subtleties in UN-style language, just for clarification purposes, and I too stand subject to any revision.

Richardjordan 21:23, 14 October 2006 (UTC) Richard Jordan

[edit] Ban or Ki-moon?

Isn't Ki-moon the shortened form of Ban Ki-moon's name. I mean in the news they would call him Ban, but in real life, does his family call him Ban, or like in China they would call him Ki-moon. Got Comments? Sometimes1must 22:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I understand the question, but Ban Ki-moon is a standard Korean name, so "Ban" is the family name and "Ki-moon" is his personal name. -- Visviva 23:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Koreans use first name to call their friends or subordinates. Koreans NEVER use first name alone to call older person. It could be regarded as an insult. You can use whole name to call a person but should be attached with 'Ssi(Mr,Miss or Mrs.)', 'Yang(Miss)' or official position name. When refering someone in official position, last name alone is more frequently used. examples: Roh Daetongryung(president Roh) Ban Yaegyobu-janggwan (foreign minister Ban) Kim Gyosu (professor Kim) --Crmtm 19:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I will never understand Korean and Chinese names. I take it from the comma in the article that, to Western eyes, his "surname" is Ban, but this is the first-name by which he is known in the west...? :confused smiley: doktorb _words^deeds 17:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The closest thing he he has to a first name in the European sense is Ki-moon. However as should be obvious, it's not his first name in the normal Korean order. This is one of the reasons why the term first name should be avoided in an international context in preference to the more inclusive and more accurate term given name Nil Einne 19:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Doktorbuk, there are cultural differences between the east and the west that easily explain your confusion. By and large, Western press follows and respects the eastern conventions mainly, so for a person you are not acquainted with intimately, or as mentioned above, a subordinate - thus Mao Ze Dong is called Mao, which is his family name, rather than Ze Dong. However, what I find bizarre about your confusion is that the practice is not confined to Eastern names, you don't see people refering to George W Bush as George, or Nikita Khruschev as Nikita. It's the nomenclature of respect. Terroiriste 08:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm just waiting for standup comics to call him "Banky Moon" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.219.181.153 (talk) 07:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

You're right but do note that when you refer to East, you're only referring to East Asians. Other Asians have different naming conventions. Malays for example generally follow similar conventions to Arabs and don't usually have surnames (family names) as such. They are therefore usually referred to by their given names. Thais largely do have surnames but as it's AFAIK a fairly recent evolution, it's still the norm to refer to them by their given name, so for example Thaksin Shinawatra is Thaksin not Shinawatra. Indonesian's vary. Some follow the Arab convention but others have surnames. Whatever the case, whether they're referred to by their surnames or given names seem to vary. Nil Einne 19:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] His religion

I removed a sentence that said he had no religious preference. Besides being not true it could be considered a negative thing by some people. Steve Dufour 06:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] His Real Religion

I posted a topic for his real religion, which is the wrong way, against the word of God. Call me a bible thumper, I dont care. I will be laughing at you when the rapture hits. CobraT 02:48, 20 December 2006 (CST)

• I have reverted your edit to a former NPOV version. --JudahBlaze 20:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
• Its still true though.CobraT 03:07, 20 December 2006 (CST)

• If you have a reliable source, then cite it Nil Einne 19:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note on Japanese delegation

As someone that has closely followed the race, including speaking regularly with mission staff, I do not believe there is evidence that the Japanese delegation offered "no opinion" on the fourth straw poll. I would welcome information to the contrary, or ask that the accusation be removed. Tfleming 01:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

--

October 5th report: [1] [2]

October 6th report: [3] [4]

MSN Korea report: [5]

Chosun.com report: [6]

Mkhkoh 15:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Not only did Japan vote "no opinion" on the last straw pole, it was found that the one country that had been persistently voting against Korea was Japan. The articles explain that the Japanese were reasonably upset that South Korea opposed Japan's candidacy for Permanent Membership of the UN Security Council for historic reasons and that this vote was essentially a "political vendetta" (which, unfortunately for the Japanese, was leaked).

One of the articles also mentions a supposed 'online battle' between South Korean and Japanese netizens leading to "mutual accusations."

The leak story was also published by the Japanese Yomiuri Shimbun(読売新聞), where they referred to the leak on the vote as a "failure on the part of Japanese diplomacy." Also reported by the Nihon Keizai Shimbun(日本経済新聞). For reference here are some of the Japanese newspaper headlines related to the matter [7] Mkhkoh 15:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Western news sources (understandably) seem to have overlooked this "detail."

How was this 'leaked'? My korean is a bit rusty and I can't seem to find any english pages that even acknowledge this. If it's hearsay, I'd rather it be attributed as such instead of stated as fact. At the very least, I'd like to know what the Japanese article had to say. Not trying to be argumentative, I just want more details on this point. HiS oWn 13:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no such a thing "netizen" in Japan or anywhere else except for South Korea and China. :-) Most of the news source you mentioned were from South Korean media, which is not really trustabe for Korean matters in general. Japanese source you mentioned did not say what you expect. From western media, one opposed in the second vote was a middle east country and the third one was France.

I don't get what you are trying to say, unsigned discusser, by "and the third one was France". France never opposed Ban's nomination, as is evidenced by the fact that he is unanimously declared as the only candidate with no opposition from any of the permanent members of the Security Council. If France had opposed him, not only would the statement be false, but he would be out of the race, rather than the SG-designate. If you need further assurance, please refer to the rules of SG nomination, and the permanent membership of the SC. Terroiriste 08:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rockefeller link

One of the categories for this article is "Rockefeller family". How is he connected to them? The article does not explicitly say. Even if he is affiliated with the Rockefellers, I wonder if only blood and marriage relatives should be included. SliceNYC (Talk) 17:00, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Have removed it for now; if someone wants to add some content to the article explaining how he is connected to the Rockefellers (assuming he is), we could consider the merits of a category.-- Visviva 10:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] thanks

wank-you-very much for this great article wikipedia!

david slough —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.203.90.172 (talk) 23:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Name

Why isn't he written like "Ban Gimun", as that is the official Korean romanisation of his name? Why this conversion of his name into something easier to read for for-stupid-only-able-to-read-English-people used? Why the "-" between his given names? Wikipedia has to stick to standards, the article should be renamed. 亮HH 13:13, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Although the spelling does have clear English influences, it's the official one used by the UN in English, French and Spanish -- not just English. (See [8], [9] and [10]). If the English speaking world has an accepted spelling that is used more often than the Revised Romanization, it is the one that we use throughout the article, though we still mention the standard romanizations in the name template (as in the Syngman Rhee and Roh Mu-hyun articles). This is outlined in the manual of style. --Calcwatch 18:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism?

Under the Education part, why does it say "my mother met him in albany and had fifty babies with his grandfatther. If hes still alive??? umm oh and dont forget about his pet dog harry!" isn't that vandalism?

[edit] Official travel

Almost half of this article consists of an endless list of all the journeys he has taken in his capacity as UN secratary general. Does this stuff really belong in an encyclopedic article? IMHO the article would be more valuable and user-friendly if one would simply delete the section "Official travel" 91.64.123.107 21:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Diplomatic visits are not generally notable and Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. If a specific trip is notable for some reason, we can mention it in the appropriate section of his biography.

Ban's only been in office for a few months and this section takes up nearly half the article — imagine what it will look like in a couple of years. Sideshow Bob Roberts 22:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't really think it's appropriate for the article either. Even though it probably is verifiable, the list will grow to be enormous. If referenced, I would support it as its own list, but my guess is that I'd be shouting into a chasm of deletionists if it went to AFD. --JayHenry 03:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect survey

His name is confusing to most non-Koreans, and subject to several transliteration schemes. He already has a lot of redirects, and may deserve more. Please bear in mind that redirects from clueless misspellings are not endorsements of the cluelessness as "acceptable variants", and are a good thing unless it can be shown that they would never be used (and presumably exist as Rdrs only bcz they are someone's paranoid compulsive effort at guessing all conceivable mistakes).
As of 05:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC), in current order of display on his What-links-here (possibly order of creation):

1. Ban Gimun
2. Ban Gi-mun
3. Ban Gi Mun
4. Pan Kimun
5. Pan Ki-mun
6. Pan Ki Mun
7. Ban Ki Moon (16 current lks via this Rdr)
8. Ban Ki-Moon (24 current lks via this Rdr)
9. Ban Kimoon
10. Ki-moon
11. Ban Ki Mun
12. Ban Ki-mun
13. Ban ki moon
14. Ban ki mun
15. Ki Moon Ban (1 current lk, from a talk pg, via this Rdr)
16. Pan Jiwen
17. Ban Kee Mun
18. Ban Kee Moon

Grouped roughly alphabetically:

1. Ban Gi Mun
2. Ban Gi-mun
3. Ban Gimun
4. Ban Kee Moon
5. Ban Kee Mun
6. Ban ki moon
7. Ban Ki Moon (16 current lks via this Rdr)
8. Ban Ki-moon (NOT a Rdr, but current bio title)
9. Ban Ki-Moon (24 current lks via this Rdr)
10. Ban ki mun
11. Ban Ki Mun
12. Ban Ki-mun
13. Ban Kimoon
14. Ki Moon Ban (1 current lk, from a talk pg, via this Rdr)
15. Ki-moon
16. Pan Jiwen
17. Pan Ki Mun
18. Pan Ki-mun
19. Pan Kimun

In summary of this regrouped list, the Rdrs each differ from the current title in one or more of the following ways (ignoring the two lower-case-k rdrs, which are unlikely to appear in edits, and are fixed by the system when typed in the go/search box):

1. Role of surname
   1. Given name preceding surname, or
   2. Given name following surname, or
   3. Given name without surname
2. Consonant transliteration
   1. With B: K vs. G ..., or
   2. With P: K and M vs. J and W
3. Transliteration of given name's first vowel
   1. i or
   2. ee
4. Transliteration of given name's second vowel
   1. oo or
   2. u or
   3. e
5. Punctuation between given name's syllables
   1. None
   2. Space and lower case
   3. Space and upper case
   4. Hyphen and lower case
   5. Hyphen and upper case

Note that in theory that offers us not much fewer than 3x2x2x3x5= 180 logical variations. (2x2 + 1)x2x3x5= 150, for those hungry for precision.) I commend to those more familiar with the subject matter the task of deciding which further Rdrs are needed. (I'm just here bcz neither of the first 2 spellings -- which are now Rdr titles -- that i tried got me to the article, and that left me wondering how well any needed Rdrs are represented.)
--Jerzy•t 05:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I've added {{Koralt}} to the top of this section to generate the list of redirects on the right. Looking at the list of Korean family names, it seems that "Bahn" or "Pahn" are also acceptable spellings of his name, so perhaps that is something to consider as well. I honestly couldn't say how many (if any) of these redlinks would be necessary as redirects though. PC78 10:20, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Heh... I'd always hoped that someone would manage to get some use-value out of that template. I share your skepticism -- surely this is one Korean name that most people know the official spelling of -- but then again, redirects are cheap. -- Visviva 15:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Atheist?

Can't find any source for him being metioned as an atheist. Most quotes list him as a non-denominational Christian. I will be removing Korean Atheists tag. 152.15.243.191 (talk) 14:57, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellanea contents is not suitable for category in 'Term as Secretary-General'

[11] [12] [13] Saintjust is Push POV Troll. he made this article in category of 'Term as Secretary-General'. He pick from 'Particularly critical news', mainly pick the criticism contents from source. and omitting other side of view.(POV) also It is not important news. It seems like he want make Ban Ki-moon image as Nepotism person. This contents is not proper article for UN Secretary-General's role. This Trivia news not suitable in category of 'Term as Secretary-General'. This article could be integrating other, or remove soon. 774townsclear 23:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If we're considering this information to be particular biased/poorly sourced wouldn't it be best to just remove it as it's regarding a living person? Stefanjcarney 00:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The description is sufficiently sourced.[14] User:774townsclear is currently under the examination of possible sockpuppetry at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Bason0. --Saintjust 00:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I Quiet to say, I'm not sock puppets. i found your edit, and revert it. and your comment is irrelevant to this. you did not mentioned your POV edit. mainly pick the criticism contents from source. and omitting other side of view.(POV) you just push me as sock puppets. is that all? 774townsclear 00:34, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

also your comment is not suitable is this page. go to user's talk page. 774townsclear 00:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I was not suggesting that it wasn't referenced correctly just that if people had an issue with it we needed to be clear what we were going to do about. Stefanjcarney 09:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The accusation of favoritism in Ban's UN staff appointment is a legitimate one as it was reported by news media, and it concerns his credibility as the UN Secretary-General. Dismissing it as a "trivia" is utterly ridiculous. That's like putting every criticism of George W. Bush in a little trivia section. --Saintjust 10:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Whatever you may think of the criticism, if it exists it deserves to be here, you cannot put it under trivia. Stefanjcarney 10:38, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

it is not criticism matter.

1. POV matter. mainly pick the criticism contents from source. and omitting other side of view.(POV)

for example, his first edit [15] omitting later part from WP news article. only pick negative content from source. His edit was intentionally make Ban Ki-moon as Nepotism person.

2. His omitting by intention. He deleted other side of view and fill negative contents from previous edit. [16] He deleted interview of Ban, deleted Philippines case and deleted Donald P. Gregg reference.

3. It is not suitable for included in 'Term as Secretary-General' category. This article could be integrating other, or remove.774townsclear 12:25, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

As I see it what you added did not belong in the article. That was a reference to Kofi Annan and his son. I understand you think that lightens the criticizm of Ban Ki-Moon but it doesn't, it just means they are both Nepotistic. This is not a page on the Secretary General but rather a page on Ki-Moon and it is a criticizm levelled at him. It should therefore be included on his biographical page. By all means, add a comment mentioning that this criticizm was made of Kofi Annan and link it up to his page but you should not have such a large reference to it on Ban Ki-Moons page. It should be in 'Term as Secretary-General because it was a criticizm that was made during and about his term as Secretary-General. At worst it should be included in a 'critcisms' section under the section 'term of secretary-general'. Stefanjcarney 15:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The section has been renamed from "Trivia" to "Criticism" as per reasoning stated above.

User:774townsclear with whom I have been arguing over this section was indef. blocked from editing Wikipedia on December 1, 2007. --Saintjust 19:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Section move to trivia section.

• POV Section. pick from 'Particularly critical news', mainly pick the criticism contents from source. and omitting other side of view.(POV)
• This content is not proper article for UN Secretary-General's role. This Trivia news not suitable in category of 'Term as Secretary-General'.
• This content could be integrating other, or remove soon. 774townsclear 00:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag at the criticism section

User:Appletrees and an anon IP user are persistent in placing a npov tag at the criticism section without clarifying exactly how the section is biased despite my request for clarification.

The tag was placed first by User:Juice8093 [17], who is quite possibly another sockpuppet of the banned vandal, Bason0/774townsclear (see the section above), with the peculiar English usage of his.

As far as Appletrees also insists on placing the tag there, he also has an obligation to clarefy his reasoning to do so. --Saintjust (talk) 18:55, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saintjust's absurd threat

That is saintjust's another mistake because I simply relocated the tag with which several editors feel where it belongs to. Saintjust hasn't previously asked me anything on this article, but quickly assumed me as other anon. Saintjust is falsely accusing people on the other side of being a bannable person. This is not the first time he mistook me with others on another occasion. Saintjust's threating is considered to be disruptive and bad faith conduct per nom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ban_Ki-moon&curid=2346975&diff=180132058&oldid=180118862

I asked to you clarify on the disc page how exactly it is biased if you insist on placing the tag there. Refusing to engage in discussion to resolve the dispute is a bannable.

I feel offended by Saintjust's absurd threat and he is certainly not an authority but acts like that. Please don't demonize people who do not agree with your edits. Your violation WP:OWN, WP:Civility and WP:AGF are alarming. --Appletrees (talk) 19:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Appletrees placed again the pov tag that I removed earlier, with an edit summmary "you can't delete {{POV}} tag on your own." [18] I have no idea what he meant by "on your own" here, but since he supports the version of the article with the pov tag and keeps reverting to it, he should have a good reason of his own to do so.

It doesn't matter whatever reasons User:Juice8093 or the anon IP user had for their placement of the tag. Appletrees is responsibele for his own edit, nothing more, nothing less. It's none of his business to revert the article for other users anyway. I don't care whoever is placing the pov tag again and again. Every one of "you" who keep placing the tag has an obligation to justify your own edit.

If Appletrees (or anybody else for that matter) wants to keep the article at the version that he supports, then he should come to this discussion page, clarify exactly how the placement of the pov tag is legitimate, and engange in discussion with me to resolve the dispute. Otherwise his edit can't stay. Neither can Juice8093's nor the anon IP user's as far as they do not provide good reasons to defend their edits on this discussion page.

If Appletrees keeps reverting my edits while refusing to engage in discussion to resolve the dispute, then that will constitute an edit warring: "A content revert is an intentional reversal of the changes made in good faith by another editor, rather than improving upon the edit or working with the editor to resolve the dispute; it is not to be taken lightly. Editors who continue to edit war after proper education, warnings, and blocks on the matter degrade the community and the encyclopedia, and may lose their editing privileges indefinitely." --Saintjust (talk) 19:48, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, Saintjust, your absurd threatening continues You need to apologise to me for your rudeness and threats. It is non of you business whether I agree with prior editors' opinions or not. I weight my thought to their edits not you. You can't accept or want to hear that your edit has problems on POV issue. You truly act like a privileged person to which nobody gives the right or anything. That kind of misbehaviors are found in your edits and you are of course, violating rules of community and by which, you can explain why you keep doing like that. You haven't asked me to involve in a discussion at all but falsely accuse me of being a bannable editor by your own rule. You haven't made any kind of prior discussion when you made a controversial edits, but demand prior discussion when others object to your bold moves. Those editors who consistently violate WP:OWN and WP:CIVILITY are eventually forced to be out of Wikipedia. You must be forgetting Wikipedia's spirit and abusing rules. --Appletrees (talk) 20:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I asked you to clarify your rational for the plcement of the pov tag and engage in discussion to resolve the content dispute. Whatever rationals that Juice8093 or the anon IP user may have for their placement of the tag are not a concern here. As far as you also endorse the same version of the article (viz. the version with the pov tag) and keep reverting the article to it, you should be able to justify the edit on your own. Your edit is your responsibility. Don't shift the responsibility onto others by saying "I simply relocated the tag with which several editors feel where it belongs to." If you can't justify your edit, it can't stay. Simple as that. --Saintjust (talk) 23:27, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Saintjust, please don't lie any more. Your behavioral pattern is so typical. You didn't ask me to clarify my reason to restore your removing POV tag on the controversy section which you almost made by yourself. You asked the anon before me and then you falsely assumed me that you has asked me to go to this talk page? You made several threat to me. I believe that kind of immature and disruptive behaviors are not to be condoned for Wikipedia. You're obviously violating community rules. You still owe me a suitable apology and clarify your reason why you reverted my edit and then move the POV tag at the top as if the whole article has problems. --Appletrees (talk) 20:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Are you willing to engage in dicussion with me to resolve the content dispute?
2. If yes, then please provide your rational for the placement of the pov tag that is the very cause of the current content dispute. --Saintjust (talk) 21:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Saintjust, you're so you. You did make a mistake and then just strike into another alley. You should apologize to me for your rudeness and false assumption. I've been your faithful contributions on this article, but there were many editors to oppose your lengthy and POV versions. I still feel that the section holds trivial information to denounce him. I state my reason it's your turn to clarify your reason why you reverted my edit and then move the POV tag at the top as if the whole article has problems. I hope you wouldn't do the same thing to this article as you did to article, The Rape of Nanking.

Ah, I think we should include a news like Japanese persistently objected to Ban's election which is of course "sourced" and "widely well known information. You're a Japanese editor, so you can enhance the content by your Japanese ability. We can polish the controversy section by our cooperation.--Appletrees (talk) 21:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Please clarify on exactly how the issue of favoritism is "trivial" and is causing a "pov" problem to the article.

I think that this issue is important and merits reference on Wikipedia as it has been reported by news media such as Washington Post among others, and it's one of the recurrent problems of the U.N.:

• "According to Americans employed at UN organizations, a key barrier to American representation across the five UN agencies we reviewed was the lack of transparent human resource management practices.... [S]ome Americans at each of the agencies, except IAEA, said that "cronyism" exists and that certain individuals only hire their fellow nationals.... [T]he UN Secretary-General also acknowledged in a report to the General Assembly that management systems, including human resources, lacked transparency." [19]
• "The hiring of nationals from one's own country is a delicate subject at the United Nations. The U.N. Charter requires that officials take no instructions from their governments. But, like Ban, many top U.N. officials owe their jobs to support from their governments, and they sometimes remain involved in their country's political life. Previous U.N. chiefs -- including Kurt Waldheim of Austria, Javier Perez de Cuellar of Peru and Boutros Boutros-Ghali of Egypt -- brought small teams of trusted aides or clerical workers from their country's Foreign Ministry." [20]
• "Problems of Staff Appointment According to Equitable Geographical Distribution.... UN member governments attach great importance to having a fair proportion of their nationals employed in the Secretariat. The 1962 General Assembly recommended that in applying the principle of equitable geographical distribution, the Secretary-General should take into account members' financial contributions to the UN, the respective populations of the member countries, the relative importance of posts at different levels, and the need for a more balanced regional composition of the staff at the director level." [21]

This isn't a new issue to the U.N. --Saintjust (talk) 23:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tag

2 POV tags? I removed one. What is the POV issue. Please let us focus on this and not on each other. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, this is a Featured Article, and I think we all agree it's an important subject. Let's not destabilize the article to the point that it loses its featured status. Now, first, do we think it's NPOV to include a section called "criticism"? I'm not saying that we should not include the information. But rather than give the section an opinionated heading, perhaps the first step toward neutrality would be adding this information to the section about Ban's appointments. Does that seem like a reasonable step to everyone? --JayHenry (talk) 03:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, the criticism section was originally a subsection "Favoritism in appointment," existing right after the subsection "Cabinet" that writes about appointments, and under the big section "Term as Secretary-General." I think that's more appropriate than having an independent criticism section and segregating all criticisms in there.

The subsection "Favoritism in appointment" was moved to the current position by User:774townsclear, who also renamed the subsection to "Trivia." 774townsclear is a sockpuppet of User:Bason0, an indef. banned vandal, and no longer active. See #Miscellanea contents is not suitable for category in 'Term as Secretary-General'. --Saintjust (talk) 03:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image Problem?

I'm having trouble seeing the two images in the Diplomatic career section. Is this just my computer, or is there a problem on the article? Otebig (talk) 03:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Secular??

Secular is not a religion. It should still at least give a specification (e.g. Secular Christian). -Rosywounds (talk) 05:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. And actually, this has been discussed before, and Ban's situation is more complicated than this. "Secular" isn't the full story and it would be best not to include this field in the infobox, and just to mention it in the body of the text. I.e. he has declined to identify with a religion, but has also never accepted the classification of secular. I have removed per what I feel is the previous consensus. --JayHenry (talk) 08:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism prevention

Hello. Some people are now playing tricks on this article. Please let it put into 'restricted to edit' article. 121.141.233.70 (talk) 07:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully the people experimenting with the article will eventually see the futility of vandalism and will some day realize that it's significantly more rewarding to be productive contributors! --JayHenry (talk) 08:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] It’s only a paper moon?

Although the article should mention what a General Secretary does, and should explain why he was allowed to keep China out of the U. N. (the U. N. would be a good influence on China) and why he wanted to, this article was important and rather well written and short enough read in one sitting, and until I had read it, I thought the General Secretary was from some place like Ethiopia. It was well worth reading. – Chuck Marean 03:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Chuck, thanks for your kind words about the article. There's a little more about what a Secretary-General does in the article United Nations Secretary-General but I agree that improvement is still needed. Also, it's actually Taiwan, rather than Mainland China, that's not allowed in the United Nations. In order to be selected as Secretary-General one needs the approval of Beijing, and they're unlikely to approve a candidate who would recognize Taiwan. I think only the United Nations General Assembly really has the ability to change this, but in practical terms it's unlikely to happen because mainland China has so much economic power, not to mention nuclear weapons. --JayHenry (talk) 04:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First Americans

The following text seems like pointless trivia:

"The U.S. military troops in Korea were the first Americans whom Ban ever met.[3]"

Who was the first frenchman he ever met? What about the first chinese?

Either say why it's important that his first american was a soldier (maybe it has influenced his opinion of americans in general) or, it seems to me, delete the sentence.Pre1mjr (talk) 10:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

It's included because it was his first significant encounter with the foreign -- it was a watershed moment in his young life -- such that (in the next sentence) he made English the focus of his studies, (in the next paragraph) traveled to meet John Kennedy, became a diplomat, went to graduate school in the United States, (in the next section) became Director General of American Affairs, and later (the reason he has a biography here) became Secretary-General of the entire United Nations. They are identified as American soldiers for the simple fact that this is who they were. It adds context to his place and time; a child who witnessed the Korean War. If they'd been French train engineers, or Australian doctors, I would have said that. There's neither trivia, nor hidden commentary here, just the way his life happened. (And if the story of the first Frenchmen he ever met is particularly significant and memorable, please do add it!) --JayHenry (talk) 16:17, 25 February 2008 (UTC)