Talk:Babak Khorramdin

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  1. Archive 1

[edit] page needs some fixes

The part: Ancient historical figure and modern nationalistic debates is not scientific and I do not think any journal has referred to such a debate. Indeed it is useless debate since Azerbaijanis have Persian/Iranian heritage as well. (According to Swietchowski it is harmonic symbosis of Iranian and Turkic culture and Planhol has said the ratio seems to be more Iranian but acknwoledges the other factor). Babak Khorramdin according to classical sources is called Persian (Ibn Hazm, Vardapet) and also Encyclopedia of Islam, and other scholars. I don't think that is an issue between historians. Simply the language of Azerbaijan before Turkification was mainly Middle Persian dialects and also Babak's father was from Mada'in (Sassanid capital of Iraq) according to oldest sources. Also the article should focus on the history of what babak did. So I am going to fix this article and make it more encyclopedic.--alidoostzadeh 02:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Movie

I created the article for the movie: Babek (film). Therefore, I removed the movie section of the article, as this article is about Babak the person, not the movie. I'll expand the movie article later.Azerbaijani 17:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I will put links to that article you created on this page as it is related subject.--Dacy69 19:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC) Sorry - you did already.--Dacy69 19:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Azeri or Persian?

The article says Babek was born in a Persian family, such a statement without any objective source is very POV. Most historians agree Babek was Iranian of Azeri ethnicy. So now I also ask you, what is the difference between Persian and Iranian? Arent Persians also Iranians, so why not simply refer them as so. I corrected this mistake, or else Iranians of Azeri ethnicy will also have the ability to claim everyone as Azeri rather then Persian. Baku87 (talk) 20:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The only source shows that he was half Persian and half Azeri, so best thing we can do is just note Iranian. This is most objective. Baku87 (talk) 20:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Classical sources use "Persian". See the introduction. Persian means speaker of Middle Persian/Persian dialects, in the west used equivalently for Iranian and has other meanings. It does not necessarily limit itself to one Iranian dialect (Modern Dari-Persian) or region. So it has a wide definition [1][2]. So context here is important. It is the same even with the word "Azerbaijani". Is a Zoroastrian or Tat or Talysh or Kurd from Azerbaijan an Azerbaijani? Geographically yes, nationality yes (citizen of the republic of Azerbaijan), but in the 20th century or so, the term "Azerbaijani" as an ethnicity became associated with Turcophone people of the area. So in order to be clear without arguing which definition applies, the issue with this regard is Babak's language/ethnicity rather than anything else. We can't apply 19th/20th century ethnonyms here. So perhaps you mean Babak was an Oghuz Turk? I disagree. At the time of Babak and even at least up to the Ilkhanid times, Persian and Iranian dialects were prevalent in Azerbaijan. For example the name Azerbaijan itself is of Iranian origin and not Turkic (now I am speaking about language and the context should be clear). All the cities mentioned with regards to Babak: Barzand, Khash, Daval-Rood, Ardabil, Saderasp/Saterasp, ZahrKosh, Badh have Persian names as well. Babak was also the name of the founder of the Sassanid dynasty and is a Persian name. One of the dialects of Persian is Khorasani Persian or Dari. But Middle Persian languages are also called "Persian". "Azeri" Turkic did not exist in Azerbaijan during the time of Babak and it was not spoken in Azerbaijan or Arran. His master's name was Persian: Javidan Poor Shahrak. His wife's name was Persian: Mah-roo. And the language of Azerbaijan at the time of Babak was a Middle Persian dialects and Iranian languages like Talyshi or Old Azari language. His name is Persian: Babak. His sect is also Persian: Khoramdin which is a descendant of Mazdak movement, itself a sect of Zoroastrian. Classical sources (Arab, Armenian) as well modern Historians have used the term Persian. Also Greek-Byzantium documents call the Khorramdins as Persians. M. Whittow, "The Making of Byzantium: 600-1025", Berkley: University of California Press, pp. 195, 203, 215: Excerpts:Azerbaijan was the scene of frequent anti-caliphal and anti-Arab revolts during the eighth and ninth centuries, and Byzantine sources talk of Persian warriors seeking refuge in the 830s from the caliph's armies by taking service under the Byzantine emperor Theophilos. [...] Azerbaijan had a Persian population and was a traditional centre of the Zoroastrian religion. [...] The Khurramites were a [...] Persian sect, influenced by Shiite doctrines, but with their roots in a pre-Islamic Persian religious movement. " . Indeed Khorramdini is just a continuation of Mazdakism itself a sect of Zoroastrianism.
In terms of Khurramites, Persian/Iranian refers to linguistic/ethnic term. See here for example: [3] The term was also used specifically for those Iranians who fought the ¿Abbasid caliph Mo¿tasáem be'lla@h (r. 833-41) and enrolled in the Byzantine army of the iconoclast emperor Theophilos I (r. 829-42). . Babak's last words were also Persian: "Zahi Aasaani" or "Asaaniyaa". So yes Iranians today can be of Turkic-speaking background (due to the long rule of Turkic speaking dynasty and movement of Turkish nomads, some areas of Iran became Turkic-speaking), but this did not exist during the time of Babak-e-Khorramdin. Note the name "Azerbaijani" as ethnonym to Turkic speakers if fairly new (late 19th or early 20th century), and from a geographic point of view, at the time of Babak, Azerbaijan would strictly be identified with North-Western Iran. For example, in terms of modern setting, historian Ighrar Aliyev is both Azerbaijani (a Talysh from the country of Azerbaijan). But we need to use definitions that were used at the time of Babak.
If he was of Turkic-Oghuz origin (which is what I assume is what you mean by "Azeri" and modern Turkic speakers of the Caucus identify themselves with it seems(from the general feeling I get in Wikipedia)), classical sources and modern academic sources would have identified him as so. Actually most of Babak's enemies were rather of Turkic origin. For example, not only the Cailph Muta'ism (himself born of a Turkic mother) and the main enemy of Babak, but also Ashnaas, Aytaakh, Boga Kabir (Turkic gaurds of the Caliph from Khazaria or Central Asira) whom Babak fought against. Afshin was most likely of Sogdian origin (per Encyclopedia of Islam and per the book "A thousand swords"). And Maziyar's(an ally of Babak in Mazandaran) Brother, Kuhyaar, writes to Afshin and Babak: "We have three enemies: Arabs, Berbers (the North African slaves who served as Soldiers in the army of the Caliph), and Turks". Note I do not agree/disagree with that statement(perhaps due to its own political conditions it might have been understandable or something?), I am just bringing it to show that the Khorramdinan were not a Turcophone movement. Rather they were a sect with roots in pre-Islamic Iran and they predate the linguistic Turkification of Azerbaijan by many centuries. They also had a close connection with Abu Moslem Khorasani, and in some soures, Babak identifies himself as a descendant of Abu Moslem through the daughter of Abu Moslem. Anyhow the Khorramdinan were a psuedo-Zoroastrian sect, where-as the Turkic people in Central Asia were Shamanistic and when the Seljuqs conquered the area, they were Hanafi Muslims.
Also let me add Babak Khorramdin was really popularized by nationalists in Iran and by the USSR in the caucus (due to the communistic nature of Mazdakism). This was all in the last century or so. So in order to understand the Khorramdin belief (a sect based on Mazdakism and itself a reformist sect of Zoroastrianism), it should be approached with dispassionate analysis. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 15:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The article shows clearly he was half Azerbaijani and half Persian, that makes him an Iranian. And please next time just give me decent argument rather then just copy and paste somebody else his story Baku87 (talk) 18:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Decent arguments were given, so please read them. The article doesn't show anything except what is sourced. Azerbaijani today is defined as Turkic speaking and mainly Shi'i people. At the time of Babak Khorramdin, this modern group was not present in Azerbaijan and this came about as a synthesis of Iranian elements and Oghuz migrants, which changed the language although probably did not have a wide genetic effect. So if you are assuming that Babak was Turkic speaking (or any of his family for that matter) because his mother was from Azerbaijan, that is misplacing time and history. That is a geographical argument, but from History point of view, Azerbaijan was not Turkic speaking during the time of Babak. Just like ancient Egyptians did not speak Arabic before Islam. That is why the article says his mother was from Azerbaijan. She sure was not Turkic speaking since the population of Azerbaijan was not Turkic speaking during the time of Babak. Babak's mother was Iranic speaking much like much of Azerbaijan back then. Mahroo is the name given in classical sources which is Persian. Babak is also an Iranic name (founder of the Sassanid dynasty was called Babak). His master's name was also Javidan the son of Shahrak. And his sect is Khurramite/Mazdaki (both Persian words) which is not Turkic but an off-shoot of Zoroastrianism (Iranian religion). All classical sources have stated he was Persian (Armenian, Iranian, Arabic) and his sect was a Persian (Khorramdini) and Azerbaijan had a Iranic speaking population back then. That is why his name is not Turkic and his sect was a offshoot of Zoroastrianism, which is an Iranic not Turkic religion. We are not talking about nationalities or 19th/20th century or modern citizenship. We are talking about background here, which today Babak would be identified as Tati. Note Mark Whittow: M. Whittow, "The Making of Byzantium: 600-1025", Berkley: University of California Press, pp. 195, 203, 215: Excerpts:Azerbaijan was the scene of frequent anti-caliphal and anti-Arab revolts during the eighth and ninth centuries, and Byzantine sources talk of Persian warriors seeking refuge in the 830s from the caliph's armies by taking service under the Byzantine emperor Theophilos. [...] Azerbaijan had a Persian population and was a traditional centre of the Zoroastrian religion. [...] The Khurramites were a [...] Persian sect, influenced by Shiite doctrines, but with their roots in a pre-Islamic Persian religious movement.. Ethnically Babak was Iranic speaking and he came way before the Turkification of language in Azerbaijan, which started from the Seljuq era. The Khorramdin religion is also a Iranic sect. I would read the scholarly references in the article. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 18:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)