Talk:Azerbaijani Jews

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Since when Cuhud is a derogatory term? Cite your sources, please. Grandmaster (talk) 11:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Cuhud

I am not saying that we should not tell the truth. No in fact it is very good to honestly say how the Jews are called in the republic of Azerbaijan, but the word Cuhud (also Johud, Juhud) etc... is a dereagatory word. In Iran the word Yahudi and Kalimi is used. Kalimi (those of words) is a very respected designation and refers to moses. Also you will find these designations was used in what is today called rep. Azerbaijan in the Iranian era before the Russian conquest. The fact that Cuhud is used says much about the disrespecting views of Musavat and panturkists on their minorities. Every minority gets discriminated by these Panturks; Kurds, Talysh, Lezgin, Armenian, Jews. very sad--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a place for unsourced POV claims. Cite your sources please and refrain from offensive comments about other nations. Thanks. Grandmaster (talk) 12:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
very illuminative especially your phrase about "other". You know better than me that I always can cite and refer to sources. So I will come back. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Please do and cite a source that Cuhud is a derogatory term in Azerbaijan. Grandmaster (talk) 12:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok. I will come back soon --Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:51, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Mountain Jews in Azerbaijan refer to themselves as Juhuro, how can it be considered offensive? Plus, if a word means something in Persian, its meaning doesn't automatically project onto other languages. The Russian word Żyd / Zhid is of Polish origin and is considered highly offensive to Jews, whereas in Poland that same word is an official way of referring to Jewish people and carries no negative connotation whatsoever. Parishan (talk) 03:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes a word in Chinese can mean something else than in Zulu. But we are talking about the usage of that word in Iran (I did not say Persian language only, but also Azeri language) and the republic of Azerbaijan which has been part of Iran. The fact is that Iranians are more respectful towards their religious minorities than the Panturkists from republic of Azerbaijan. The evidences are the conflicts with Armenians (Christians), Lezgins (Sunnis), and Avars (Sunnis). The fact that the Panturkists have love relationships with Turkey and Israel is purely strategical and does not mean that they love the religious minorities in their own countries. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:14, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, I couldn't care less what it means outside Azerbaijan. The world doesn't revolve around Iran, ya know. And I personally don't have time for this drivel. So unless you're ready to provide something more substantial than your pathetic Iranian-Power! fairy-tales about big bad Panturkists and their made-up conflicts, you're free to bore somebody else with them. Thank you. Parishan (talk) 21:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Pan-power kimdir Man ya san? agar xastasan yazma. Aslan muhum daylidir ki san Iranli ya Turk ya Moghul ya Hindli, ya Chinli san, Azerbaijan respublikasin arazilar Iranin arazi iddi. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear that. Anything else? Parishan (talk) 21:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
yaxchi, xuda hafiz olsun.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] some points

Parishan bey it is weak of you to first oppose me then take my words and add Yahudi to it. By the way it is also not correct to remove Andranikpasha's text, he gavve the source and it was written in the source. You can artificially display a clean face but the fact is that in the rep. Azerbaijan there is not much respect for the minoities. And something more important is: There is no ethnicity of Azerbaijani Jews. There are Mountain Jews and Russian Jews living in Azerbaijan but there is no ethnicity called Azerbaijani Jews.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

There was nothing in that source about Sumgait or Antisemitism. And it is not me who is displaying a clean face - unlike you, I actually made a contribution by rewriting this whole article myself, going into the hassle of finding numerous neutral sources (including Israeli ones) to back up the points. All you have been doing here is openly displaying prejudice, hatred and disgust towards Azerbaijan, its culture, its people, its values, to a point of agreeing with any nonsense just to make the object of your dislike look repulsive to others. Do you actually expect me to treat your input into this discussion seriously after such disrespectful, inadequate and simply unacceptable attitude?
You are not making this discussion smoother by taking up the role of a judge who gets to evaluate the degree of tolerance in countries. You even went as far as regarding my expansion of the introduction as "cover-up" work, when I did not remove a single bit of information from it. Parishan (talk) 07:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I think you are going too far if you say this: "All you have been doing here is openly displaying prejudice, hatred and disgust towards Azerbaijan, its culture, its people, its values." It is true that I am not in love wioth PanTurkists/ islamists and other extremists, but you cannot accuse me that I hate a culture and people to whom I am closly connected.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Labeling other people as "Pan-Turkist", etc is not a good practice here. Why don't you assume good faith with regard to other editors? Grandmaster (talk) 10:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I dont know hwy you are saying this, but if I see how great the efforts have been to do everything to minimze the Iranian legacy of rep. Azerbaijan and replace it with some fictyive Turkish/Turkic identity, there is no other conclusion possible that these efforts are driven by Panturkist agendas.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Antisemitism allegations

  1. "Fear of becoming the target of hostility" is not an example of Antisemitism on the part of the local population.
  2. "none of the 100 buildings formerly belonging to the Jewish community has been returned" - please assume good faith. None of the buildings that belonged to any community prior to 1920 has been returned. Also, no reference is made to the fact that these buildings were repossessed by the Bolsheviks, not the government of Azerbaijan.
  3. "During the last years different attacks against individual Jews or Jewish communal took place" - The last years? The source is from almost 13 years ago.
  4. Hamidov is a controversial politicial with criminal background who spent 9 years in jail while being head of an ultra-right political group.[1] How wise is it to quote him on something as serious as Antisemitism?
  5. The Islamic Party of Azerbaijan has not even been officially registered. Let alone accounting for their newspapers and radio channels, as said in the article. Parishan (talk) 09:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Parishan, do not delete a big part of sourced info just cuz you dont like it! I presented reliable sources, isnt it? if they're laying, pls represent more reliable ones (not only your opinion) saying that facts didnt happened! Echoaz site is an Azeri not Jewish site, surely biased on "Antisemitism in Azerbaijan" case. So pls assume good faith! Andranikpasha (talk) 12:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
What is the point of this discussion if you didn't even read my response? Parishan (talk) 21:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I read it! here are the answers:

  • yes its a fact of anti-Jewish feelings in society, as the people are affraiding to become the target of hostility. Surely such things will never happen in a enough tolerant society. the source itself is about anti-Jewish events.
  • "None of the buildings that belonged to any community prior to 1920 has been returned." if its a sourced info its really very sad and proved that not only anti-Jewish, but some untolerance exists in Azerbaijan to all the religions and societies. Its not a good fact and cant help us here!
  • "Also, no reference is made to the fact that these buildings were repossessed by the Bolsheviks, not the government of Azerbaijan." It happened in Azerbaijan. If you have reliable sources on facts of Bolshiecik (Azerbaijani Bolshievik?) vandalism and anti-semitism you're welcomed to use here!
  • "During the last years"- you were right, changed!
  • "The Islamic Party of Azerbaijan has not even been officially registered" - any source? if yes then lets write that its a non-registered party! the cited site is reliable and only discussing reliable info (not OR) is welcomed. Andranikpasha (talk) 22:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
If the source is about "anti-Jewish" events than the entire first part should be deleted. Being afraid is not an "anti-Jewish event." Also, Kasparov's departure has nothing to do with Anti-Semitism. Being Jewish did not contribute to the fact that he had left Azerbaijan.
You clearly have no idea what your own source is talking about. In 1920, when Azerbaijan was Sovietized, the Bolshevik government repossessed (confiscated) all the real estate that belonged to wealthy individuals and ethnic communities, including cultural and community centres, clubs, mosques, churches, synagogues [2], etc. After the collapse of the Soviet Union the descendants claimed their rights [3] but their demands were not fulfilled. This has absolutely nothing to do with Anti-Semitism, let alone vandalism.
Hamidov is a controversial right-wing ex-criminal; it is not rational to include his quotes into the article.
The Islamic party was founded in 1992, but its registration was cancelled in 1995.[4] It does not have its own TV or radio channels. Parishan (talk) 22:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The antisemitism is not only events but also sentiments, feelings etc. What I included is not my OR but researches on Antisemitism. So our opinions are just opinions.
  • "but their demands were not fulfilled." what is this if not an obvious antisemitism? the reliable sources says the same thing!
  • "Hamidov is a controversial right-wing ex-criminal". I dont know him personally. he is not cited as ex-criminal in the source.
  • so the Islamic party was registered until 1995 before what period the antisemitic facts happened? if the cancelling is connected with antisemitism, then we can add here, if no, then you can add to the article about that party. Andranikpasha (talk) 23:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
  1. Do you even read the sources I provide you with, or are we just wasting time here? It wasn't just the Jews whose demands were not fulfilled, it was everybody who claimed their rights to their families' pre-Soviet property seized by Bolsheviks, and were denied. The decision did not have Anti-Semite sentiment behind it. Even your source doesn't classify it as Anti-Semitism.
  2. Of course he is not cited as an ex-criminal in the source - the source is not about Hamidov. That is why I provided you with that link to Echo, where Hamidov's short biography is published.
  3. I don't know what the cancellation was for, but you must mention it in this article. Otherwise you are creating an illusion that there is actually a full-blown recognized active opposition party operating in Azerbaijan that calls for hostility towards Jews. Please assume good faith. Parishan (talk) 23:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
And here is a statement that proves these "cases of Anti-Semitism" are either irrelevant or minor, and it comes directly from an Israeli source, chairman of the Israel-Azerbaijan International Association, Mr. Lev Spivak:
The Jewish community in Azerbaijan is one of the few, if not the only one in the world that in more than 200 years has not seen a single case of Anti-Semitism [5] Parishan (talk) 07:54, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Do you think this single POV is enough to delete all the sourced info?? Pls stop editwarring. We have sources saying the same about Armenia but we also have a chapter on Anti-semitism in Armenia (despite no any Jewish was attacked despite of Azerbaijan). Andranikpasha (talk) 13:18, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Facts of Antisemitism

As the facts of antisemitism are sourced with too much serious human rights organizations reports the deletion of the whole section is unacceptable. Parishan, if even you can find any other reliable sources disputting these facts, try to discuss here and achieve a consensus before of deletion of the whole section. Atherwise, sorry, another such an edit should be reported. Lets leave the political propagand and discuss the existed facts. Andranikpasha (talk) 12:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

How Kasparov's story is antisemitism? He became successful player because of patronage of Heydar Aliyev, and emigrated because of his Armenian ancestry. What does it have to do with antisemitism? Same with other examples. In fact, Azerbaijan is one of the places in the world where antisemitism is practically non-existent and it is the only place of compact settlements of Jewish people outside of Israel (Krasnaya Sloboda). Grandmaster (talk) 16:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
This person, a half-Jewish, had to fled Azerbaijan among with his family and friends just for his half-Armenian blood. Its what about the starting of the section. Many Jews were harrased and oppressed just for their sometimes so weak relations to anything Armenian or Russian. Many Jews had mixed families with them and also were oppressed. All the other things you wrote is out of our section and off course can be added to the article (not to this section) if they are sourced. the section is dedicated to the facts and supporters of Anti-semitism, I never said the Jewish community has no any rights in Azerbaijan. Andranikpasha (talk) 17:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You say: This person, a half-Jewish, had to fled Azerbaijan among with his family and friends just for his half-Armenian blood. Now please explain how this is antisemitism, if his departure had nothing to do with his Jewish origin? Grandmaster (talk) 12:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

As the source says many half-Jewish people face up aggression and had to fled just for some connections with Armenia or Russia. This is a good example. Anyways, if this only example for you shows a good level of inter-ethnic tolerance in Azerbaijan and you think we need to hide this fact, I can delete this part on Kasparov as it seems too much problematic for you! Andranikpasha (talk) 17:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

It is not just about Kasparov. See the estimates of US State Department and the way you try to portray the situation. The section on antisemitism is the largest in the article, while it is well known that antisemitism has never been a problem in Azerbaijan. You cannot present isolated incidents as general trend. If you feel that this issue still needs to be covered, try doing it in an objective manner, and not by misrepresenting the sources. And once again, if anyone suffered because of his Armenian connections, it is not antisemitism. It is still no good, but it's not the topic of this particular article. Antisemitism is hostility or prejudice towards Jews as an ethnic group, but not every incident involving ethnic Jewish people is actually antisemitism. Grandmaster (talk) 19:09, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Independent review

Im glad you reverted yourself after my protest, Grandmaster. I prefer if you discuss your actions and decisions before doing contradict editions. Anyways Im too prefer an independent (means accepted by all sides ) reviewer, maybe also for History of Jews in Armenia article, as the sources mostly are the same (despite it seems the level of aggression is different in different countries). Andranikpasha (talk) 20:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I hope one of admins at AE board will be so kind as to review the section that you created. Alternatively, we can ask for a third party opinion via the formal procedure. Grandmaster (talk) 20:30, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Agree. In this case Im personally can agree for the revert of the Armenian article with the same conditions. Andranikpasha (talk) 21:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)