Talk:Asii

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Contents 1 Asiagh connection of Asi??? 2 Citecheck template

1. Scandinavian Asii vs Pamirian Asii -- a connection?

Hello. I read your article with great interest. I just strongly doubt your remark Scholars identify the Asii/Asio of Strabo with the Scythian Asii who had invaded Scandinavia around Christian era. What invasion are they talking about and who are those scholars except James Tod (1782-1835)? His 'Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan', published between 1829-1832, is rather outdated and in his assumption of an invasion of Scyths to Scandinavia simply wrong. Or did you find newer and more recent evidence for such an invasion? Greetings Guss2 23:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Following is based on James Tod's views: ^"In Aswa, we have ancient race peopled on both sides of Indus and probable etymon of Asia. The Assaceni, the Ari-aspii, the Aspasians and (the Asii) whom Strabo describes as Scythic race have same origin. Hence Asi-gurh (Hasi/Hansi) and Asii-gard, the first settlements of Scythic Asii in Scandinavia" (see: Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan, Reprint (2002), Vol I, p 64. Also see: pp 51-54, 87, 95; Vol-2, P 2, James Tod).

To reinforce Tod's views, I have given instances from Mahabharata and Parasar Gryham Sutra and others. Term 'Invasion' is James Tod's. I might simply say 'migration by stages' from southern tip of Scythia to Europe.

Sze cavalry01 23:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Guss2, I have responded to your objections in accordance with my knowledge. Still you may not be satisfied. If so please dont be quite, you must list your doubts here. We are all students in search of knowledge and all are inquiring into our past which of course is shrouded in mystery and no body has the clear vision of our past.

Please note that I dont claim that what I write is more correct than what others write.

Regards

Sze cavalry01 02:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sze cavalry01 !. Again, your articles are interesting. Mostly the history of these ancient tribes extracted from Indian sources is new for me. But I still have doubts about the invasion, or even migration by stages of Scyths to Scandinavia. According to the old Greek sources (especially Herodotus) there was a Scythic migration from east to west across the Pontic steppe, but that area is still a far cry from Scandinavia. So better might be, as you rightly wrote 'migration by stages' from southern tip of Scythia to Europe. Europe meaning present day Ukraine and so to avoid the name Scandinavia altogether.

Secondly. Your quote from James Tod Hence Asi-gurh (Hasi/Hansi) and Asii-gard, the first settlements of Scythic Asii in Scandinavia makes my doubts even stronger. I think Mr Tod sought relationships in comparing names, a method quite popular in the 19th century but scientifically not seen as a proper one. For instance the name Asii-gard. I think he sees a relation with Scandinavia because in Nordic myths the residence of the gods was called Asgard. Furthermore did horses realy play such an important role in Scandinavia? I do not know yet. According to their catalogue the 3 volumes of Mr. Tod are here in the local library. I think it is better for me to read the relevant pages first before making a substantial comment. But I will for sure! Regards Guss2 09:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Asiagh connection of Asi???

Thakur Deshraj has mentioned in his book on History of Jats “Jat Itihas” (Hindi) (1934) that the country Assyria gets its name from Asiagh (clan). The origin of word Asiagh is from Sanskrit word ‘Asii’ meaning sword. According to Kautilya the people who depended on ‘Asii’ (sword) for their living were known as Asiagh. The Asiaghs moved from Asirgarh in Malwa to Europe. Those who settled in Jangladesh were called Asiagh and those who moved to Scandinavia were known as Asii. Asii people entered Scandinavia around 500 BCE and their leader was Odin. James Tod considers Odin to be derived from Buddha or Bodan. The Asii Jats founded Jutland as their homeland in Scandinavia. The religious book of Scandinavia ‘Edda’ mentions that the ancient inhabitants of Scandinavia were Jats or Jits who were Aryans known as Asii people and came to this land from Asirgarh. Asirgarh is a site of an ancient fort situated in Burhanpur district of Malwa region in Madhya Pradesh, India. Thakur Deshraj further quotes Scandinavian writer Mr Count Johnsturn who says that Scandinavians came from India. According to James Tod Scandinavia is derived from Sanskrit word ‘Skandhnabh’. burdak 03:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Burdak,

Thanks for your input.

Asi does stand for sword as well as iron. I think Kautilaya does use Asi- in reference to swords. i.e he identifies three kinds of sword viz (1) Nistrimsa, (2) Mandalágra, and (3) Asiyashti (Arathashastra II, Ch. 18) [1].

Does he also define people depending on Asi (sword) for their living as Asi-agh?. Can you check please?

Kautilya's Arthashastra [2]

Kautilya's Arthashastra however talks of the Kshatriya shrenis (bands of warriors) of the Kambojas, Surashters etc as living by use of weapons which naturally includes the sword (Asi).

"The corporations of warriors (kshattriyasrení) of Kámbhoja, and Suráshtra, and other countries live by agriculture, trade and wielding weapons" See: Kautilya's Arthashastra: Book XI, "The Conduct of Corporations" (Arthashastra 4.1.4). [3]

The Brhat-Samhita of Varaha Mihira also calls the Kambojas as shastra-vartta people, which again attests that they depended on the use of weapons (Brhat Samhita 5.35ab)

ON: Asiagh or Asiyag or Sihag or Sehwag or Siag or Siyag or Siak

Like the Jat clan name Asiagh or Asiyag or Sihag or Sehwag or Siag or Siyag or Siak, the modern Kamboj people also have almost similar clan name spelt like Suhagi/Suhage/Sahige/Suhag etc. Other variations are also noted depending upon place to place. Leaving aside whether the clan Asiagh or Asiyag or Sihag or Sehwag or Siag or Siyag or Siak actually derive from Asi or not, this however does indicate a case of overlap of some kind. Do you think this clan overlap is just incidental or is there hidden some sort of remote connection between the two people?. If so what, kind of lineal relationship do you suppose?. Or else it is just an incidental coincidence of clan names.

Regards

Sze cavalry01 20:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Mahabharata reference to Asi

Mahabharata also contains references to the first creation of Asi or sword. (Shanti Parava, SECTION CLXVI) and connects the Kambojas with it.

[4]

Apart of labelling the Kambojas as bands of warriors, Kautaliya's Arthashastra also glorifies them for their superiormost brand of horses (Aśwa, Assa). Mahabharata too labels the Kambojas as master-horsemen (expert cavalry) (Aśva-yudha-kushalah).

Kautiliya Arthashastra divides the horses from various countries into three classes (i) best, (ii) good and (iii) ordinary breed. Kautiliya includes the horses from Kamboja in the best class, and further, ranks them as the superiormost breed among the best class:

Sanskrit:

prayogyaanaam uttamaah Kaambhoja.Saindhava.Aaratta.Vanaayujaah,

madhyamaa baahliika.paapeyaka.sauviiraka.taitalaaH,

zesaah pratyavaraah // 29

(Kautiliya Arthashastra. 2/30/29)

English: The horses of Kambhoja, Sindhu, Aratta, and Vanayu countries are the best; those of Bahlíka (Bactria), Papeya, Sauvira, and Taitala, are of middle quality; and the rest are ordinary (avarah).

(Trans: Kautiliya Arthashastra, Dr R. Shamashastri, book, II, Ch 30)

For more information on Kamboja horsemen, see Kamboja Horsemen and Ashvakas

In the present context, the Asii of Strabo, Gnaeus Pompeius Trogus and Megasthenes/Pliny refers to people connected with horses (Aśva, Assa) rather than with sword/Asi. Otherwise, also it is more relevant to connect the Central Asian tribe with Aśva, Assa (horse) than with Asi (sword). The ancient Sanskrit texts strongly repute Central Asians as cavalrymen/and for their horses and not refers to their sword (Asi) anywhere. Moreover, Asii is not standard Sanskrit term but it comes from the classical sources who sure have distorted it in accordance with the phonetic rules of their language.

The European Asii, in all probability, were horse-nomads from the same background as the Pamirian Asii, as James Tod has also specualted.

Regards

Sze cavalry01 19:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sze cavalry01

Thanks for your comments. I have visited Asirgarh. It is a a site of an ancient fort situated in Malwa region in Madhya Pradesh, India. The word Asirgarh can be constructed in Sanskrit language as

Asi + garh = Asirgarh, meaning the fort of Asi.

Here it is not clear if Asi is for people or for weapons. Only historian Thakur Deshraj has concluded these to be Asi people same as Asiagh, who moved from Asirgarh.

It is also true that Asiagh clan is found in Jats in Rajasthan. Regarding their arrival in Scandinavia Mangal sen Jindal (1992): History of Origin of Some Clans in India (with special Reference to Jats), also mentions along with Thakur Deshraj. As per another historian RS Joon, The Asiaghs are mentioned in the Puranas and the Mahabharat. An Asiagh king offered a gift to Yudhisthra on his coronation. Thousands of years ago Heir, Bhuller and Asiagh lived in Iran and Turkistan.

I do not have Kautilya’s Arathashastra with me right now but this has been quoted by Thakur Deshraj on page 620 of his Jat History book.

Asi is also name of Hansi town in Haryana.

There seems to be a relation between Asiagh and Asii people. Some clan names are common in India and Europe. The migrations have been reported many times from India to north and west. After Mahabharata Pandavas moved to Himalayas. It is very likely that these people moved further and conserved thir clans and are same people. When British rule was there in India they were surprised to find common surnames in England and in Indian Jats. The existence of Jutland provides proof that these Jats had arrived in Scandinavia.

It is not clear to me what exactly Edda mentions about Asi people. It was simply quoted from Thakur Deshraj, but I do not have other sources to confirm.

Regards, burdak 15:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear Burdak,

Thanks for posting your views.

The Sanskrit texts do define 'ASIKA' as the one who fightes with SWORD and 'ASIPAN' as a one armed with sword in his hand. Both are derived from Sanskrit Asi.

I am not sure if any Sanskrit text has ASIAG/ASIYAG, in the sense of ONE WHO DEPENDS FOR HIS LIVING UPON SWORD. Anyway, below are original Sanskrit and Translated versions of Kautiliyas Arthashastra, which you can refer to, if you wish to pursue further.

(1) Among many other electronic texts, here is Kautilya’s Arthashastra in Sanskrit-English: ftp://ftp.ucl.ac.uk/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/texts/

(2)Here is Kautilya's Arthashastra, by Dr R. Shamasastry (1915), translated into English for your reference. http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/history/primarydocs/Arthashastra/index.htm

3. Here is Critical Edition of Mahabharata (Poona edition) in Romanised form. (One can go through each chapter one by one). http://sanskrit.gde.to/mirrors/mahabharata/txt/01.txt

Here is the Gorakhpore recension of Mahabharata rendered from Sanskrit to English by Mr Ganguli, if one wants to pursue further.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/index.htm

Here is critical edition of Brahma Purana:

http://sanskrit.surasa.net/all_txt/brahmapur.txt

The place name Asirgard, if indeed it is an ancient place name in Malwa, it may have been connected with the Scythian Invaders who had entered India during second century prior to Common era. These Scythians invaders (tribes from vast region of Scythia) were a mixed hordes, all lumped together as Sakas, though they also contained Pahlavas, Kambojas and other several minor tribes from Central Asia.

As far as one can tell, no evidence exists to show that around 500 BCE or about, a people from INDIA PROPER had out-migrated beyond Hindu-kush into Central Asia and beyond.

The Asii/Osii, clans are attested by Classical writers as having been living in upper Indus as well as in Transoxiana. The classical writers have used several different names for these clans connected with horse culture like the Assaceni, Assacani, Hipasii, Aspasii, Ossi, Asio, Asiani etc etc. These people were located around Oxus and upper Indus in Paropamisadae as well as in Badakshan, Alai valley/Mountains, Tien-shan etc. And historically, they were connected with horse culture. Hence they got the classical names which in Sanskrit are appear as Assa, Assaka, Asvayana, Asvaka, Asvakayana etc--the people following horse culture. All this region is known to have been the habitat of ancient Kambojas i.e Parama Kambojas.

Strabo's term Asii or Megasthenes/Pliny's term Osii/Asio is the classical version of a certain Sanskrit term which the Sanskrit scholars think as having been connected with horses or horse-culture (rather than Asi--- meaning sword).

The term Asi (sword) is Sanskrit term rather than a classical term.

Thanks and Regards

Sze cavalry01 02:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citecheck template

The citecheck template has a narrow purpose: to point to misuse of reliable sources, such as quotes taken out of context. When adding citecheck to an article please state specific misuses on the talk page so that editors can correct the problem. Durova^Charge! 04:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)