Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carousel Theatre

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 07:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Carousel Theatre

Carousel Theatre (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

Previously {{prod}}'ed,. then recreated, speedy deleted, and challenged. Article is unreferenced and does not assert notability. — xaosflux ^Talk 02:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

• Delete I don't see any assertation of notability or any reliable sources. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells•Otter chirps)} 02:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep The Jessie Richardson Theatre Awards Society is indeed a reliable source. Please refer to their website. You can also google them. They recognize outstanding work in Vancouver Professional Theatre. In terms of notability, please try googling Carousel Theatre. The company has been producing professional theatre for young audiences in Vancouver Canada since 1974 and has the privilege of impacting the lives of more than 75 000 young people each year. Carole Higgins (talk) 04:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I have added several more references to improve the entry.Carole Higgins (talk) 05:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I assumed that the creator wanted to 'keep' the article so I did some layout on her comments here.Gillyweed (talk) 08:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

• Keep Article is suitably well referenced now. The AfD process has led to the article being improved. Article now asserts notability. Gillyweed (talk) 08:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep It seems to have some decent references and the theatre has been around for a while. I did a few quick searches on it and some of the names given and all were adequate enough to play a supporting role in keeping this article. --Stomme (talk) 09:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment The sources are mainly either non-reliable or trivial. They just mention things that played here, and are more about the shows than the theater. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells•Otter chirps)} 13:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note if the article becomes referenced and asserts notability, I have no objection to it being kept, have suggested to the creator that if it is not up to par then having it moved to a user sandbox would be OK as well. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete, the provided sources are either not independent or trivial in nature (event listings). These are not "decent references", unfortunately. We need reliable sources discussing the topic with some significance, not just proof that it has held events (we do believe it's real). --Dhartung | Talk 17:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment Could you clarify what you mean by trivial and not independent? None of the provided sources are simply event listings. The Vancouver Sun, Canadian Theatre Encyclopedia, IMDB and Canada Council are reliable sources. Could you be specific as to which sources you consider to be unreliable?Carole Higgins (talk) 03:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Reply Certainly the Sun and Encyclopedia are reliable sources, but what the information they and IMDB give is basically trivial event data -- somebody acted here, this production was mounted here. There is no source that is, for example, a profile of the Carousel Theatre as an institution -- its founding, its history, its influence. At most there is the Jessie Award (which is sponsored by the Canada Council, so one award, not two). But this is an award explicitly for Vancouver theatre, rather a small pond to be the best children's theatre in for one year. --Dhartung | Talk 03:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

ReplyThank you for clarifying. Several additional references have now been added, three of which speak to Carousel Theatre's influence and history. Carole Higgins (talk) 04:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• Delete I do not accept the the awards for a local theater prize is notable. Vancouver is not London or NY--there is no significance beyond the region. The Canada Council prize is also specialized, for a children's theater. if we get as specialized & local as these, we can find awards for almost anything. DGG (talk) 04:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment - arguing that "there is no significance beyond the region" means that you need to delete every tin-pot little sporting team that appears on WP. And claiming awards that are only given in New York or London are notable is somewhat geographically arrogant. This theatre may be vastly better than anything in London or New York but we don't know, because it's not in London or New York?!? Is this the systemic bias in WP that we are trying to get rid of? Gillyweed (talk) 10:53, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

it has no relationship to quality. I've seen very good theater elsewhere, and rather poor theater in both. It has to do with the influence which they hold over the genre. DGG (talk) 16:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Reply You mention the influence that the theatre company has in its genre. Wikipedia recognizes children's theatre as its own genre, just as musical theatre, comedy and drama are genres. Carousel Theatre was recognized by the Canada Council (a national body) through their TYA Award as leader in the genre. This is a notable achievement. More references have been added to further improve the article.Carole Higgins (talk) 02:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• Keep - or am I missing something here. Certainly the article as nominated for AfD asserted no notability but I can see lots online. I can see numerous reviews on reviewvancouver.com [1] [2], eight on vancouverplays (reviews by alleged Professor of English Jerry Wasserman) [3] and others. There appear to be a number of useful news articles just through google searching, notable enough to be listed in guide books (Vancouver, Victoria and Whistler, 2007). Noted in Canada on Stage York University, 1982 as "One undeniable bright spot in Vancouver theatre during the season was the work turned in by Carousel Theatre and Green Thumb, the city's two professional ..." . Noted in "The Canadian encyclopedia", 1988 - "The Oxford Companion to Canadian Theatre", 1989 and so on. All up there is clearly enough material from reliable sources to write an informative and verifyable article - Peripitus (Talk) 08:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 22:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of British Columbia-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 22:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. Article is well-sourced (I've seen articles ten or twenty times as long as this which didn't have half as many references) and contains numerous claims of notability: first Canadian theatre company to offer sign language interpretation for the hearing impaired, association with Mavor Moore, awards, etc. Bearcat (talk) 15:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Carousel Theatre is a well-established and highly popular travelling theatre company serving communities in the Interior of BC for decades; easily one of BC's better-known theatrical companies/arts institutions.Skookum1 (talk) 16:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Also worth noting it has various notable alumni actors, not sure who at the moment, but I know it's the case.Skookum1 (talk) 16:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• Keep per Bearcat. Well referenced, coverage in a local daily, it merits inclusion. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 16:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
• Keep notable local theatre company. Reggie Perrin (talk) 19:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - meets WP:notability, has WP:RS. Still needs some improvement, but that isn't a reason to delete. DigitalC (talk) 23:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
• Keep The article's lengthy listing of references shows notability is not an issue.Ecoleetage (talk) 01:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.