Talk:Andy Summers

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[edit] Birth year

Was he really born in 1942 rather than 1952?

That appears to be a typographical error. Can anybody check on this?

If you read a lot of articles about the Police, you'll find mention that Andy Summers is 10 years older than Sting and Stewart Copeland.

If you still doubt this, check The Police: Message in a Box: The Complete Recordings. Andy's birth date is clearly stated as December 31, 1942.

Andy's official recording career began in the 1960s as a member of Zoot Money's Big Roll Band, Dantalion's Chariot, and Eric Burdon and the Animals. He was in his 20s during this period. The box set even mentions that a teenaged Sting saw Andy perform with one of those groups, roughly a decade before they would become bandmates.

If you're still not sure, wait for his autobiography, One Train Later, to be published in October 2006 by St. Martin's Press.


Oddly some of the material in One Train Later implies that Summers was born in 1946, and not 1942. For example an encounter with Hank Marvin when Cliff Richard and the Shadows perform in Bournemouth seems to occur when Summers is 13 or 14, and since the earliest this could have happened is sometime in 1959 it implies Summers was born in 1946. Another example is that Sonny Rollins classic The Bridge, which came out in January of 1962, is discussed just prior to a section mentioning Summers turning 16, again implying he was born in 1946.
The following essay on his own website mentions seeing Eddie Cochran on TV when Summers was 13, which could also imply a 1946 birthdate.

http://www.andysummers.com/lightstrings.php Tim gueguen 19:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


There is no question that Summers was born in 1942. It does seem that he is misremembering some of the events described in his autobiography on the one hand, and his autobiography is also often fuzzy about chronology on the other hand. I don't know how you're managing to correlate the Cliff Richard references so precisely though. Is there really a record somewhere of when Richard first played Bournemouth and first appeared on television? TheScotch 08:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no specific dates for when Richard first appeared on TV or toured Bournemouth. However Hank Marvin joined what where then the Drifters sometime in the second half of 1958, and the first singles with Marvin on them were released in the first part of 1959. So whenever Hank Marvin first appeared live backing Cliff Richard it couldn't have been earlier than the fall of '58, and was more likely sometime in '59. So either Summers screwed things up by remembering something happening at 13 or 14 when he was actually 16 or 17, or his birthdate has been consistently presented as four years earlier than it actually is.Tim gueguen 20:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

If you don't know when Cliff Richard played Bournemouth and he couldn't have played it earlier than 1959, then as far as you know he might have played it in 1960, 1961, or 1962, and so on. Summers's birthdate has been "consistently" represented as December 31, 1942--very consistently, in numerous disparate reputable sources. Summers's fuzzy chronology in his book doesn't seem to me completely consistent, but it's hard to tell because it's fuzzy.

As of page 137 (in the hardback edition), which is as far as I've got, I'm coming to the conclusion that Summers is deliberately attempting to portray himself as younger than he is supposed to be. On page 135, just before he describes the Animals break-up, he says, "I will be twenty-three on my next birthday." I don't know what year it's supposed to be at this point, but it couldn't possibly be earlier than 1968, and it's more likely 1969. The latter fits your 1946 theory. TheScotch 09:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Internet sources confirm that the version of the Animals that included Summers broke up in 1969. On the other hand, Summers on page 143 confirms that he was born on December 31 (of a year he doesn't specify), and then on page 146 (I've read just a bit further now) he says he was twenty-nine in November of 1973, which two circumstances would mean that the year of his birth would have to be 1943. Somehow, by his own account, he managed to age six years between 1969 and 1973. TheScotch 12:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this discussion points out why an autobiography is not considered a reliable source for articles for any facts that might be disputed. --Bloodzombie 17:57, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legal father

What does it mean that Andrew is now legally fathered by Martin...? That's a very confusing statement.

I've read Martin Turner discuss this in interviews. Andy Summers had a relationship with Martin's now wife during his period apart from Kate, they fathered a child, Andrew Jnr, who has been raised by his mother and her now husband Martin. Martin legally adopted Andrew Jnr.

[edit] Kate who?

Re: "In 1973, he married Kate, a psychology graduate, and they had a daughter, Layla Z Summers (born in 1978)."

If this person's maiden name is unknowable, then the passage should at least be reworded so that it reads something like, "He married his girlfriend Kate in 1973." If Kate were (or is) an actual psychologist, then "a psychologist" would help to identify her, but the phrase "a psychology graduate" is essentially meaningless and should be deleted.TheScotch 08:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UCLA

Didn't Summers study classical guitar at UCLA from approximately 1969 to 1973? If so, shouldn't the article mention this? It would seem to me a pretty important part of his biography. TheScotch 09:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've added this information (under the rubric "Education"). I don't know whether Summers graduated from UCLA, though. I hope someone can tell us.TheScotch 06:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I am planning an expansion of this article and rewrite of some sections with sources. The entire article is currently unsourced. If anyone has any good links to articles on Summers, can we collect them here to start improving the article? Thanks --Bloodzombie 16:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

There is of course his autobiography One Train Later (which is not, however, entirely trustworthy, as I've noted above). There is a Police entry in the on-line Grove Dictionary of Music (a highly reputable source, although not nearly as reputable as the 1980 hardbound edition, which, incidentally, has fewer entries having to do with pop music). There is also, of course, Summers's web site.
Acknowledging sources is fine, but I don't want to see this article riddled with footnotes. Take a look at the Encyclopedia Britannica or the Encyclopedia Americana or the Funk & Wagnall Encyclopedia and see how many footnotes you find. I think you'll find there are virtually none at all. TheScotch 18:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't favor extensive use of footnotes either. I like to use one at the end of each paragraph for the reader's reference, unless there is a statement that is likely to be disputed; in that case, I think a footnote at the end of the sentence is appropriate. Do you agree? What do you think of the style I have used in the Equipment section? --Bloodzombie 18:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The footnotes in this section don't seem to me to be especially obtrusive, but I'm not convinced we really need them at all. A "Reference" section will be understood to refer to the information in the article proper without footnotes.TheScotch 06:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

If I may make a suggestion, you might familiarize yourself with the criteria for good articles and featured articles, both of which are the eventual goal for any article here. Reviewers always require articles to be properly verifiable; an article of any good length and thoroughness requires inline citations so readers don't have to guess which of a jumble of references at the bottom is intended to verify facts in the article. Makes sense? --Bloodzombie 14:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I think if we're really afraid there might be confusion (and I don't see how there could be in this particular case), then all we really need to do is make the reference section more specific. You seem to be suggesting that the longer the article the greater the need for footnotes, but the longer the article the more a reader will need to scroll down to read it in its entirety, which necessarily means trying to find the information the footnotes reference will be the more aggravating. An on-line encyclopedia thus has even less an excuse for footnotes.TheScotch 21:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Footnotes are clickable; clicking them takes you directly to their respective reference and then you can click again to go back to where you were. So that is not a reason not to have footnotes. Please read the project pages I linked above - articles really cannot make it to GA or FA status without inline citations. I think we should be using inline citations (minimally) unless we have a very compelling reason not to. --Bloodzombie 17:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Equipment

This article as it now stands seems to me obsessively concerned with brand names and models of guitars. I don't think any mention of them should occur in the opening paragraph, and the "Equipment" section, if it is to be retained at all, should be reduced to at least one-third of its current size. Brand-name guitar buffs can indulge themselves elsewhere.TheScotch 06:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Summers is well-known and noted for his guitar collection and equipment; Guitar Player Magazine has done more than one story on just his rig. It is very much in scope for an article about a guitarist to cover his equipment in detail. And trust me, what I have written is extremely concise in relation to the depth of information that is available about Summers' equipment. Additionally, I intend to expand the other sections of the article considerably so they are proportionate to the equipment section. --Bloodzombie 14:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

If the justification for this section is that "Summers is well-known and noted for his guitar collection and equipment," then if we're to retain it at its current length we need to amend the opening sentence which now reads, "Andy Summers (born Andrew James Somers 31 December 1942) is an English guitarist and composer best known for his work in The Police," so that it reads, "Andy Summers (born Andrew James Somers 31 December 1942) is an English guitarist, composer, guitar collector, and guitar enthusiast best known for his work in The Police."TheScotch 21:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. I can provide many sources that back up that claim. --Bloodzombie 17:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)