Talk:Ancient history

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[edit] external links

I would like to place an external link to an online history portal that I believe offers added-value to wikipedia's history enthusiasts. This portal, http://www.saecularis.com, offers a good selection of history books, DVDs and posters that can be purchased online. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anasl001 (talk • contribs) 15:37, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Old talk

Would it be possible to indicate some kind of time period associated with each of the civilisations here? - Stuart Presnell

10,000 years is too long for writing. Earliest was around 3200 BC.

I knocked it back to 5000-5500.


Cmon guys, that Madonna zinger is perfect, just leave it there!

  • I can appreciate a good joke as much as the next guy, but this isn't the place for it. Maybe you should start a blog, yeah? Fernando Rizo T/C 21:35, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
    • I'd read the blog. Hell it may be the next Onion, or not. David D. 21:51, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Breaking history

Suppose we can divide history from the beginning of writing until 1945 into groups, just as pre-historic time is divided into periods like the "Age of Fishes", "Amphibians", "Reptiles", and "Mammals". What can we have??

We can start with the Age of Egypt, which begins when writing begins and ends sometime around 1500 B.C.E. I really don't know exactly.

Next, we have the Age of Greece, which ends around 30 B.C.E.

The next period is the Age of Rome, which runs from 30 B.C.E. to 476 C.E. when the Roman Empire was broken.

Then comes the Age of Early English, which runs from 476 to 1066, when the Norman King defeated the English King.

The next group is the Age of Middle English, 1066 to 1492.

From 1492 to 1776 is the Age of Discovering America.

The last period is the Age of Semi-Modern Life, 1776 to 1945.

Any years that you feel surprised do not serve as borders?? 66.245.14.242 15:43, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

I think that the standard ages are sufficient:
The stone age
The bronze age
The iron age
The pre-dark age
The dark age
The middle age
The Renaissance
The pre-modern age
The modern age
The atomic age
The digital age
(i thought that is was something like that...)
82.169.16.145 19:05, 25 May 2005 (UTC)


First of all, terms like Age of Greece, Age of Rome, the Renaissance, Age of Early English, etc., are very Eurocentric. Where would you place, say, the various early Chinese dynasties in this schema? Should those be defined only in terms of Western history? Second of all, terms like Bronze Age, Iron Age, etc., are a product of Victorian historical writing and are not used by "serious" modern writers because (1) they're far too imprecise, (2) no two scholars would agree on where an "age" begins or ends, and (3) the terms themselves are misleading. Does the previous "age" (e.g., Atomic Age) end when the next one (e.g., Digital Age) begins? I'm not aware that we have ever left the Atomic Age. Modern historians use the simple and easily understood framework of centuries and decades, where an exact year cannot be ascertained for some event. Where's the problem? --Michael K. Smith 13:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

This isn't a natural transition from the above discussion, but it kind of has to do with it.

Shouldn't some non-European dates be provided for the end of ancient history? Although I still find 476 to be the most convenient end date, other areas of the world went through some sort of transition around the same time. Western Asia was overrun by Muslims in the 600s. The Gupta Dynasty fell in the 500s. China was reunified by the Sui in 589. Japan began to emerge onto the historical scene. Can some other, Asian date be provided for the end of antiquity? Brutannica 19:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Then there are those terms like Axial Age/Axial Revolution used to refer to the Eurasian period that saw the emergence of Buddha, the Hebrew Prophets, Lao Zu, Zoroaster(ianism), Confucius, Pericles, Socrates-Plato-Aristotle, Epictetus, Epicurus, Jesus, etc. When I teach, I let the philosophical impetus of the Axial Age crystallize into something called the Classical Period, in which the Roman Empire and the Han Dynasty flourish. Dw5 (talk) 02:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

And Ancient Africa ? Kemet, Kerma, Napata Meroe, Nok, Pount, Damat, Aksoum ? 87.90.80.9 18:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The "golden age of Pericles" (Χρυσούς αιών του Περικλέους) - 5th century BC - should be added in the Classical Antiquity list. (Reasons: invigoration and establishment of democracy, acropolis of Athens)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmarnerides (talk • contribs) 15:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Shouldn't this be merged with Antiquity? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:57, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ok, it has been done. Antiquity is a disambig. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:46, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with dates

Under important events, it says "# 410- Alaric sacks Rome for the first time since 390 BC". 390 BC is 20 years AFTER 410 BC, so this is like saying "in 1989, George Bush senior became the first Bush elected US President since George Bush Jr. in 2001". I don't know the facts about the raids and can't find them anywhere, so perhaps this needs to be reviewed by a knowed person, or else that line needs to be deleted.

Alaric's raid was 410 AD (and is in its correct place in the list), i.e. 800 years after 390 BC. Varana

---

The problem that I think some people are running into is the Biblical Account of history vs. the scientific account of history. On the average, the population of religious people tend to think that the earth can be no more than a little over 6000 years old. (Not to offend anyone, but, the scientific proof dates it at much much longer than that). Also, another mistake I keep seeing is BC vs BCE and AD vs CE. I see both formats on this page BC/BCE and AD but no CE. (BCE-Before the Common Era and CE-Common Era). To keep this page as close to the valid scientific account as possible, I think that BCE and CE should be used in place of BC and AD. Again, sorry if this offended anyone.

AscottW 04:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)AscottWAscottW 04:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


I'm not sure that "on the average" most religious folk believe in young earth chronology, and I suppose to "keep this page as close to the valid scientific account" BPE (Before the Present Era (the archeological system)) might be better, eh. As a world historian (and a religious person to boot), BCE and CE are quite acceptable for historical dating. In any case, if using BC/AD, then one should be sure that AD sits before the date and BC after it; CE and BCE both go after. Dw5 (talk) 02:46, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to offend anyone either, but who came up with this "Common Era" crap? What happened in AD 1 to begin a "Common Era?" It doesn't make any sense! It's dishonest! Life in the present has NEXT TO NOTHING in common with life in AD 1! You might as well say the "Common Era" begins with the signing of the Declaration of Independence or the extinction of the Dinosaurs, it'd be about as "scientific." Where does this silly euphemism come from, what makes it so "scientifically valid," and why are we all being forced to switch over to it? I mean, I have absolutely no problem with a secular dating convention, but why the hell would you begin it in AD 1? THAT DATE IS SPOKEN FOR. I realize this may not be the place for this, but my head was about to explode. Sorry. Ştefan 03:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-history

Where should information regarding the time before written history began be placed? Also as the time when written language became used varies by country, does 'Ancient History' cover times such as the Bronze Age and Neolithic in Britain?

in the sense of "Antiquity", no. "Ancient Greece/Rome/China/India" is definitely taken to be limited to the Iron Age covered by historical information. We should treat pre-history separaterly. dab (ᛏ) 16:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Exodus

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Exodus soley a biblical event, with little or no historical proof? Darkahn 02:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct, and there isn't even a consensus within the Book of Exodus. Basically, 90% of what's in the Pentateuch is "folk history" and should not be treated as "real" history. (And I won't even start on the Gospels. . . .) --Michael K. Smith 12:59, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Why are Biblical events listed as "historical"? There is little evidence to support the claim that the Hebrews were actually from outside of the area of Israel. At most this is still under debate in the historical/ archeological community. Biblical references without non-Biblical corraboration should be removed.
I'm not sure it is entirely accurate to refer to anything in history as proven. There is only historical evidence, but there is no historical proof. With regards to the specific case of the Exodus, I agree that there is not sufficient consensus for that story to get fair treatment in such a broad ranging article as this one. On the other hand, the Holy Bible is an important historical document, which has been carefully preserved for centuries. It's value to the student of ancient history cannot be over-stated, and its claims cannot be dismissed out of hand. -ErinHowarth (talk) 06:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Primary sources?

Ancient historians are called 'primary sources' in this article. But aren't primary sources the ones recorded by people involved in the events themselves? Government archives and memoirs for example. Even a historian writing about events that happened during his lifetime isn't technically a primary source, but a historian of events that passed before his birth (like Herodotus) is definitely not a primary source. Renke 16:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I quite agree. Examples of primary sources are birth certificates, newspaper clippings and journal entries. In the case of ancient history, the primary sources are things like inscriptions on monuments, ledger books and coins. Anything created by a historian is by definition a secondary source. If the "historian" was an eye witness to the event, then the "history" is actually a memoir or journalism. I think that would be the case with some of what Josephus wrote in first-century Jerusalem. -ErinHowarth (talk) 06:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good Job!!!

I thought he/she did a great job writing this!

P.S. We're studying this in school right now

I think he/she did a great job describing everything!

[edit] Missing citations

What part of the article is missing citations or needs footnotes? Please list them in bullet order. J. D. Redding 14:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

The introduction seems very confusing to me as it is currently written.

Ancient history is the study of the written past from the beginning of human history until the Early Middle Ages.[1] The term classical antiquity is often used to refer to the timeframe of ancient Greece and ancient Rome. The beginning of history is signified with Sumerian cuneiform being the oldest form of writing discovered so far. Ancient history include the recorded Greek history in about 776 BC (First Olympiad). This coincides roughly with the traditional date of the founding of Rome in 753 BC, the beginning of the history of Rome. The ending date of ancient history falls in the 5th century and 6th century. Western scholars often use the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD, the death of the emperor Justinian I in 565, or the coming of Islam in 632 CE as the end of ancient European history.

It starts out trying to define the title. This is done quite succinctly in the first sentence; although it doesn't actually include any dates, but then the introduction goes on to talk about classical antiquity. I suppose this is included in the introduction because classical antiquity and ancient history are sometimes used interchangeably when they shouldn't be, but I think it would be clearer to stick to what ancient history is rather than to introduce the definition of another term so soon in the introduction. I suggest moving this bit down the page to where the article begins describing ancient Greece and Rome. The third sentence introduces the importance of ancient Sumerian cuneiform as the start point for ancient history, this seems to contradict the first sentence and requires clarification. The forth and fifth sentence are referring the ancient Greece and Rome again. Certainly these two civilizations are important, but I'm not sure its entirely appropriate to single them out like this in the introduction. The seventh and eighth sentences give us several alternate ending dates for ancient history in a less-than-coherent way. I think this information can be delivered much more consisely. In addition, I think the introduction ought to refer to the major sections of the article: Section 1: the study of ancient history, Section 2: the chronology and Section 3: the prominent civilizations of ancient history; therefore, I propose the following:

Ancient history is the study of human civilizations from the advent of writing in 3000 BC (see Sumerian cuneiform) to the fall of Rome in 476 AD. Not all historians agree on these dates. Some historians date the end of ancient history with the death of the emperor Justinian I in 565 AD or the coming of Islam in 632 AD. The study of ancient history is greatly enhanced by the study of archeology due to the scarcity of historical source material. The breadth of ancient history includes 35 centuries on five continents (Asia, Africa, America, Europe and Austrailia).

The number of continents is up for debate, of course, I choose five because, looking through the list of items in the chronology and the list of prominent civilizations, ancient American is taken as a single entity, and Antarctica is not mentioned at all. What do you think? -ErinHowarth (talk) 08:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

North and South America should certainly be distinguished. I'm not happy with the Ancient chronology table as it is linear which causes problems if you want to talk about two important aspects of history occurring in the same century. --Doug Weller (talk) 20:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I've started working out a possible new structure for the chronology section that groups items first by millenia and sub divides them by continet, but I'm actually having trouble taking Asia in all at once. It seems ncessary to divide it into West Asia (i.e. the Middle East), East Asia (i.e. China), and South Asia (i.e. India). I haven't started working on America yet. What do you think distinguishes the ancient history of North America with the ancient history of South America? I might guess the Aztecs in North America and the Inca in South America. They were prominent at the same time rather than sequentially, but they didn't interact with each other very much. -ErinHowarth (talk) 00:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Structure

I think that Section 2: Chronology ought to be combined with Section 3: Prominent Civilizations. Personally, I prefer a chronological organization, but I dislike the current chronology which is essentially a list of dates. I think a brief narrative for each century would be easier to read. However, we are talking about 35 centuries. What do you think? -ErinHowarth (talk) 08:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Someone rewrote the entire page since I made this humble suggestion. It looks like a lot of hard work was deleted and replaced with something cmpletely different. -ErinHowarth (talk) 00:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I've decided I don't like the new thematic structure. I much prefer a chronological and geographical structure. I've posted what I'm working on to my user page, if anyone is interested in seeing it. It's not ready to go here yet, but if you have any suggestions, I would like to hear them. -ErinHowarth (talk) 06:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 'General information' and 'Further reading'

"The standard order for optional appendix sections at the end of an article is See also, Notes (or Footnotes), References, Further reading (or Bibliography), and External links; the order of Notes and References can be reversed." and see WP:Layout In other words, 'general information' should be put under 'further reading'. And IMHO, the books now in further reading should be deleted as they are very, very out of date and superceded by more recent works, such as the Cambridge Ancient History Set. --Doug Weller (talk) 20:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reddi

Reddi, I appreciate your efforts, but I am not sure they are an unmixed blessing (pre-Reddi version). Please try to announce what you are going to do if you want to completely re-structure major articles, and try to collaborate with people. --dab (𒁳) 13:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok ... being bold ... hope didn't step on alot of toes ... article before was a timeline not a real article to delineate ancient history. Sincerely, J. D. Redding 18:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Reddi's version does have the advantage of removing much material that is effectively duplicated in more regionally-focused articles (like Ancient Egypt)- at the apparent cost of adding in NEW duplicated material from thematically-focused articles (like Ancient music). I see that the substantive chronology has been moved from this article to Timeline of Ancient history, but it appears that the quite nice list of "Prominent civilizations of ancient history" is gone (although SOME of it exists at civilization). I also just glanced at User:ErinHowarth's version, which has different advantages (and disadvantages). I really like the fact that her version includes sections on the entire world- both Reddi's version and the previous version are basically Euro-Centric, with lip service paid to Asia and no mention of the rest of the world. This isn't entirely our fault, as the historic record has the same bias. However, her version appears to be basically an extended and expanded timeline, rather than a general encyclopedia article on Ancient History (I'm not sure Reddi's version is really encyclopedic either, as it is mostly a list of a series of relevant themes). I'm uncertain about the best next step- In a way, either version of this article is really just acting as a links-list to a series of geographic and/or thematic articles on the Ancient World. Maybe that's okay, but are any of these versions really a good encyclopedic article on what Ancient History IS? TriNotch (talk) 15:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that expansion and improvement is called for ... but with such a high level article as this one is, it's alil hard IMO it get to the fine details ... that would be more appropriate IMO again for sub articles [like the mains, the further, and the regular links. JIMO, J. D. Redding

yes, I did not revert Reddi because some of his edits are clearly an improvement. They are still rather erratic, partly due to lack of familiarity with WP:MOS issues, and some discussion or collaboration would have worked wonders. I am sorry, but "Ancient history" is an "Eurocentric". Or at least an "Old World" centric one, including the Near East, India and China. The Americas, sub-Saharan Africa and Australia have no "ancient history" in this sense for lack of written records, and move from Prehistory directly into the Modern (colonial) period. Let's not duplicate the scope of the Prehistory article here. --dab (𒁳) 15:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

With respect, Olmec and Zapotec writing begins around 500 BCE in Mesoamerica (the Isthmian_script for example) and possibly as early as 900 BCE (the Cascajal Block). We do have SOME grasp of political and military history from Mesoamerica in the relevant period... which is almost always overlooked by Old World scholars. But I understand your assertion; Ancient History DOES have this bias, and certainly we should not duplicate Prehistory. So, apart from this quibble, do you have any suggestions? TriNotch (talk) 15:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
If Reddi has simply copied text into this article with no acknowledgement, that's copyvio. I'm not entirely sure how you are supposed to do it but you need to put some sort of link in the edit summary so it can be traced back to the original author. I agree we already have a Prehistory article which shouldn't be duplicated. In fact, much of the article looks very unbalanced, and I think the article has lost a lot more than it has gained. The section on archaeology (Reddi's not responsible for it I think) is clearly written by someone who doesn't know much about archaeology - the definition is wrong for a start. I'll try to do something about it. --Doug Weller (talk) 16:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I initially only intended to suggest that it was substantive content duplication of articles we already have, not literal word-for-word duplication. There is no copy-vio from non-Wikipedia sources insofar as I can see. However, I went and looked at some of the articles linked to (i.e. Ancient music) and I have learned that the relevant section is indeed a word for word copy from that article. Hmmm. Still not acceptable. We may have to revert it after all because so much of it is duplicated material. Comments? Reddi? A shame, because rewriting the article in SOME way probably is a good idea. TriNotch (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I've got another problem with the group of historical articles that Reddi has just created, which I think links with some additions here. I don't think it is a coincidence that the non-literate Native American cultures he has included in Ancient American history are linked to fringe claims about Judean, etc inscriptions. He is clearly going down some odd road in Ancient Australian history about ancient aborigine writing (which doesn't exist). All his new articles have large bits about non-literate cultures -- ok, some have petroglyphs, but history is about written texts that we can read, not about possible writing in early cultures, or the use of symbols, that's prehistory. Then there's this one, take another look at the bits about science and technology and maritime contacts. Electrical knowledge, aerodynamic stuff, etc -- take a look at his citations also. These all can be seen as linked to a fringe agenda.--Doug Weller (talk) 07:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reversion to pre-Reddi article

Looking at the comments and the past few days, it's finally struck me that this should have been discussed and that editors aren't generally happy with the drastic change. So, I've reverted to the first good version before Reddi deleted most of it, and am replacing some of the acceptable references Reddi added,which won't include his quick guide to SAT tests that he added :-). It clearly needs work. More citations, and can we get rid of the huge timeline which in any case makes it hard to read? Either delete it entirely, or put it further down. Definitely get rid of anything that is archaeology, not history.--Doug Weller (talk) 07:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)