Talk:Alec Douglas-Home

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Contents 1 Miscellaneous 2 Baillie Vass - nickname 3 House of Lords and Marquess of Salisbury 4 Image 5 Not in any house of parliament 6 Religion 7 The Hon. Lord Dunglass, MP (1951)

[edit] Miscellaneous

Quote "Over the course of the following six years Home was notably loyal to Heath, ...."

I seem to remember, though am not congruently certain, that Sir Alec was Shadow Foreign Secretary in Mr Heath's Shadow Cabinet. I seem to remember Sir Alec being asked, some short time after his resignation, by a television reporter, whether he would (be willing to?) serve in the Shadow Cabinet (I forget the exact form of the question), and Sir Alec replying that that was entirely a matter for the new leader. However, I cannot remember whether that was when Sir Alec resigned or when Mr Heath had been elected.

Songwriter 21:39 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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Quote "to be qualified to re-enter parliament as an MP ....".

Well, he could not, at that time, become an MP while a peer, yet he also needed to be elected as an MP. There was a bye-election for a constituency with a name which sounded like (I am unsure of the spelling) Kinross and West Perthshire. Whether the seat was vacant or whether someone resigned to produce a bye-election I do not know.

Songwriter 21:49 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The seat was already vacant and the existing candidate agreed to step aside and allo Home to stand.

Timrollpickering 10:44 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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Quote "by a murky process the details of which were not clear".

Whether they were clear at the time I am unsure, yet I have seen an account of what happened subsequently somewhere. It might have been in a book entitled "Governing without a majority" but I am not sure on that.

This was the only time, so far, during her reign that Queen Elizabeth II has had to be involved in deciding who would be Prime Minister. I seem to remember that the account claimed that the Queen sought advice from Sir Winston Churchill (at that time by then an earlier Conservative Prime Minister) and whoever was the Conservative party leader in the House of Lords at the time. The Queen had also visited Mr Macmillan in hospital.

Mr Heath was the first leader of the Conservative Party who gained the post by election rather than by "emerging" as I once saw the previous process described. In fact, Mr Heath had the highest number of votes in the first round, but did not win outright. When the result of the vote was announced he was thus due to face a second vote against Mr Maudling, who was a close second in the first round. In the event, Mr Maudling withdraw from the contest and Mr Heath became leader of the party without a second vote. I think that Mr Heath then chose Mr Maudling to become Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer and that he so served.

Songwriter 22:22 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I think you're mixing leadership contests. In 1957 the Queen appointed Macmillan on the basis of advice from two senior Cabinet members and Churchill. No advice was given by the resigning Eden. In 1963 Macmillan gave the Queen formal advice to send for Home, based on "soundings" on the various sections of the Conservative party.

The Queen is also invoked in the outcome of the February 1974 general election - this did not produce a clear result and Ted Heath did not resign for several days while he tried to form a majority. Many felt this was wrong as the one clear thing was that he had lost and that the Queen should have dismissed him.

Also the earlier 1911 leadership election did come to a contest (the party was in opposition; technically this contest was only for the leadership in the Commons not the whole party) and ballot papers were prepared for it, but in the end two of the three candidates withdrew to encourage unity.

Timrollpickering 10:44 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Correct. I've changed the article to make it more accurate in that respect. I've made one other change. It is questionable to call him a Scottish politician. Since home rule was granted, there are in effect four categories of politician. Those who serve in the Scottish parlament, and so deserve to be called Scottish politicians, those who serve in the Welsh Assembly, and so deserve to be called Welsh politicians, those who serve in the Northern Ireland politicians and so deserve to be called Northern Ireland politicians and those who are not working at the regional level but are members of the United Kingdom parliament and who, to distinguish them from the others, should be called, British politicians. FearÉIREANN 19:35, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I think also that Home sat in the Lords under an English, British or United Kingdom peerage - a 14th Earl would have also inherited several lesser peerages as well. Home was certainly automatically transferred to the Lords on his father's death in 1951, which happened in the English/British/United Kingdom peerage but not in the Scottish Peerage (although the later 1963 Peerage Act chaged this).

from sometime in mid 19C, Earls of Home were guaranteed -rather than subject to election from the Scottish peers- a seat under the UK Barony of Douglas. Sir Alec's largest estate was in the Lanarkshire village of Douglas. (He was first M.P. for Lanark). He was the first Minister of State at the Scottish Office and the first minister resident in Scotland. This was one reason why he was so unknown "down South" and why MacMillan's making him Foreign Sec' was so controversial. The peerage disclaimer had to list his individual peerages. Academically, an ancient one was later discovered. As that hadn't been entered on the list, his second stint as M.P. was nicely illegal... AR

Although there is perhaps a case to think of him as a Scottish politician as well as in the early 1950s he was a high profile minister in the Scottish Office.

Timrollpickering 10:44 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The Tory leader in the House of Lords at the time was Lord Hailsham, apparently. Might the Lord Chancellor (Lord Dilhorne) have also been involved in the decision? john 20:03, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Would it not be better to swap the photos around so the one from around the time of his premiership appears in the box?

No, his face is distorted in the second one. We need a direct facial portrait for the box. --Jiang

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I have a very good reason for "Home" to be pronounced as the name spells. It is because the common usage of the word used for "house", which is "home". You may have heard just a few pronounce the name "Home" as "Hume", and there is a discrepancy because someone may accidentally spell his name as "Alec Douglas-Hume." So I think that there may be an alternate spelling. --65.73.0.137

The Hume, Home, Houme, Hoome and Huym families all belong to the same clan and therefore have the same name, but different families use different spellings. Sir Alec's has only ever been known as "Home", despite pronounciation as 'Hume' --Mmartins 06:46, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

No, I haven't heard "just a few" pronounce his name like that - everyone I've ever heard mention him has used the correct pronunciation. He was the Prime Minister, so it's not unreasonable that people would know how to pronounce his name. If anyone pronounces it "Home" they are simply ignorant, not using an alternative pronunciation. Proteus (Talk) 08:07, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. ALL British tv and radio stations pronounce his name "Hume", and always have, for the 40 years I've been listening to them at least, which goes back to his Premiership. People would have noticed if it was a mispronounciation! Arwel 21:47, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Two exclamatory remarks (one in the edit summary) for trivial reasons? Please, get a life. --65.73.0.137

[edit] Baillie Vass - nickname

Baillie Vass (a Baillie being an older version of a magistrate/JP) was actually Simon Vass of Nairn, Moray-shire. A family nickname of PM did not arise from this. KS Vass

[edit] House of Lords and Marquess of Salisbury

This article states Douglas-Home "was the last member of the House of Lords to be appointed Prime Minister" whereas Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury states he "was the last British Prime Minister to hold office whilst a member of the House of Lords." I can vaguely see the difference, but I don't know the precise chronology of when Douglas-Home officially became PM and officially left the Lords. Someone who does might tease out this point; it's the kind of ambiguity that spoils pub quizzes. jnestorius^(talk) 03:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

If I remember what I've read correctly, Douglas-Home did not immediately accept the Queen's commission outright but instead requested the opportunity to confirm that he "could command a majority" and indeed was formally "elected" leader at a meeting of Conservative MPs, peers, candidates and National Union dignities (in 1922 Bonar Law similarly sought confirmation of his position at such a meeting, although I don't think the National Union was formally involved then; however Baldwin, Chamberlain, Eden and Macmillan all accepted the premiership and then were elected). Indeed Enoch Powell and Iain Macleod tried to get Rab Butler to head a refusal to serve under Home in the belief that this would make a Home premiership impossible and so Butler would have to be appointed - this would have been entirely in line with Home at that point not formally being PM (although in the event Butler declined to play along). So the chronology of exactly when Home became PM - the provisional commission or the definitve one - and just when the renunciation of his peerage took place relative to all this becomes crucial. Timrollpickering 23:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

The information on the Douglas-Home page is correct. I've checked several of the biographpies cited and Home was Prime Minister while in the House of Lords, albeit for a short period. The Salisbury article is therefore inaccurate in this regard and should be amended. Christina Kaye 21:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Can someone who knows their way around wiki better than me restore the old pre 'Elmarko5' image and also have a look at the rest of his uploads as he/she seems to have done the same on several important pages. Thanks Galloglass 15:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not in any house of parliament

Quote "and for the next two weeks belonged to neither house of parliament - an extremely uncommon (although not unique) occurrence for a sitting Prime Minister". Who were the others? Enquiring minds would like to know?

There were some in other countries, such as John Gorton in Australia (a Senator who won the sudden leadership contest when Harold Holt was declared dead and who transferred to the lower house), but I can't think of any other British PM who was incumbent whilst outside the Parliament. There was once a law that forced newly appointed ministers to seek re-election (although I think it only applied at the beginning of a period of office - Churchill doesn't appear to have fought by-elections when he moved positions in 1910, 1911, 1915, 1919 and 1921) and some PMs would have had to go through the formal process (Pitt the Younger certainly did) but hardly anyone considers this. Gladstone lost his seat in the 1868 general election but had been elected in another (in those days people could stand in more than one and polling was spread out, making such survival techniques possible). I can't think of any other sitting or incoming PM being defeated. Timrollpickering 09:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

There were 2 other Australian incidences:

• Edmund Barton was appointed the 1st PM on 1 January 1901, but the Parliament did not exist until the elections were held in late March. In the interim, by default, he belonged to no house of parliament.
• Stanley Bruce is so far the only sitting Australian PM to lose his own seat at a general election. (We await with interest the outcome of John Howard's campaign for his seat of Bennelong at the 2007 elections.) The 1929 election was held on 12 October, and Bruce was defeated personally in his seat of Flinders. His government was also defeated by Labor's Jim Scullin. Bruce continued as PM until his commission was terminated on 22 October. So, he was PM for 11 days (12 - 22 October 1929) without being a member of parliament. -- JackofOz 10:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

You may want to update the Gorton article - it's currently citing Barton as the only other case. Timrollpickering 11:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for the good pick up. -- JackofOz 11:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The other point in all this is that in many other countries there is either a law requiring ministers to not be members of Parliament or a tradition of appointing from outside parliament. I don't think Dominique de Villepin was ever elected in France. One PM in Belgium in the late 1930s - Paul van Zeeland if memory serves correct - was initially appointed from completely outside the parliament, but whilst in office won a seat (in a by-election, taking it off the fascists). So internationally at least Home's position was probably far from unique. 12:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

Was he really a Roman Catholic? Lately, Fleet Street has been reporting that there has never been a Roman Catholic PM, in reference to Tony Blair's imminent conversion. Can somebody please address Home's religion in greater detail? --216.73.249.238 20:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

No he definately was not a Roman Catholic. I suspect he was actualy Church of Scotland but couldnt say for sure. Galloglass 22:58, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

In that case, somebody should change the infobox when his religion is ascertained. I have provisionally changed his religious affiliation to "Protestant (not verified)"--I figure vagueness is preferable to flat-out inaccuracy. --68.173.7.33 01:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Rather than speculating, which is against Wikipedia rules, why not just say "unknown"? When and if we discover his religion, we can change it. -- JackofOz 06:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

According to The Dictionary of National Biography, Douglas-Home's religious views were influenced by the preaching of Rev. Billy Graham. However, it doesn't go into any more detail than this. Homagetocatalonia 17:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Hon. Lord Dunglass, MP (1951)

Why was he called 'The Hon. Lord Dunglass, MP' for some period in 1951? I thought the only class of person called 'The Hon. Lord Something' were Senators of the College of Justice (if not also a privy counsellor or peer).--Oxonian2006 (talk) 20:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)