Talk:Albert Einstein/Archive 14

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

The first line (again)

I hope this doesn’t trigger yet another round of fruitless discussion, but… How do other people feel about changing “German-born” to “German-Jewish-born”? Such a change would satisfy my concern that the first sentence be brief and defensible against additions of other labels such as Swiss and American. I previously proposed something similar, but Geeman objected for reasons I do not understand. Perhaps this is something we can agree on. --teb728 21:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking now about a new formulation which be something like a "German Jewish scientist" (I'm still not sure but in the next few days I will since I promised Schulz with a quick answer)which any one could interpret according to his/her understanding about ethnicity and etc (Stephan Schulz suggested that it would be "German scientist born to a Jewish family" (a formulation which I first asked him about)."German-Jewish born" isn't a very good definition for my understanding (and I can be wrong as my English is limited ).And any ways -any solution should be on the open paragraph only and should be widely accepted .--Gilisa 07:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
People can make there own judgments on ethnicity and nationality this way Epson291 07:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Which way? (and I fixed my last comment here-please read it a gain...:-)--Gilisa 07:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)Epson291 , forgot about my last comment (which is now striked) I think that we better live the status quo as it is .It get to my knowledge that this is the best way to obtein Einstein Jewishness along with his German history in a very balanced way , not ideal , but there is nothing better for now.--Gilisa 07:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I think "German-born" gives the wrong impression - one of the absolutely central things about Einstein was his Jewishness and he widely known now around the world as first and foremost Jewish - also, given his persecution by the Nazis, we should surely mention it in the introduction. "German-Jewish" would be more accurate and also more sensitive to his memory and to the man he was. LiberalViews 19:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
This has been thoroughly discussed and debated (check the Talk archives). Einstein wasn't an "observant" Jew, and his personal religion differed from Judaist doctrine, so his Jewishness was not "absolutely central", and is not among the very first things that need to be mentioned. There is ample coverage of his Jewish heritage, religous ideas, and connection to the Zionist cause within the article. The present introduction seems to be the most tolerable to the article's editors in general, and has been stable for quite some time now. Please don't mess with it. — DAGwyn 22:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Surprised it's such a source of contention. Is the contention to do with hostility to him being acknowledged publicly as Jewish for some strange reason or it being a prominent feature? Note for example Brittanica which mentions it ("Einstein's parents were secular, middle-class Jews") within the first two paragraphs. [1] LiberalViews 23:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem was/is that once you start attaching labels to Einstein, other special interests try to attach their labels to him too, and it becomes a mess. The only reason I left "German-born" in that sentence when I last edited it months ago was because that was needed to explain why the article had a just exhibited a link to an audio file giving the German pronunciation of "Einstein". Note that we haven't labeled him up front as "German", nor "Swiss", "American", "Jewish", or "vegetarian", even though each of those is mentioned in the body of the article. Our article does contain the information about Einstein's Jewish heritage, albeit in a different place than the Encyclopedia Britannica. The Wikipedia is a different venue, and attaining consensus (or at least stability) is one of our requirements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DAGwyn (talk • contribs) 23:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Notice also that this article mentions his Jewish family in the first sentence of the body of the bio. (Wikipedia is a little unusual in that its articles begin with a brief summary.) --teb728 01:03, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Einstein the Communist

Why is there no mention of the fact the the FBI kept a 1,427 page document of einstein's affiliation with 34 communist fronts and service as an honorary chairman for three communist organizations? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.81.227.133 (talk) 05:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Perhaps because the FBI had been found to misrepresent the involvement of numerous notable citizens in socialist/world-government style organizations. I'm not aware of any evidence that Einstein was sympathetic to the Communist cause as such. The article does note Einstein's "activist" involvement with such matters, including opposition to racism. If more emphasis is needed, feel free to add it, with a good neutral-POV reference. — DAGwyn 16:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Agree with DAGwyn....the FBI's overly aggressive documentation of public figures during the era up to Einstein's death is widely known. You did not have to be a "radical", just a peaceful pacifist would do to merit a file. I do not think any particular purpose is served by mentioning it, other than perhaps to say that Einstein was monitord by the McCarthy-era FBI...Engr105th 16:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Einstein was, however, a self avowed radical and a socialist. He helped found the influential socialist journal Monthly Review, and wrote an [[[article]]] for the first issue in 1949 called "why socialism?". I find it appalling that the Wiki article about Einstein remarks heavily about his Zionism but says virtually nothing whatsoever about his socialist convictions. Besides at least HAVING A LINK TO THE ARTICLE HE WROTE, there are other sources and means of characterizing his politics that have not been explored. For instance, Monthly Review ran an article on Einstein's politics in the May 2005 issue entitled, "Albert Einstein, Radical" by John J. Simon. The red-baiting intentions of the poster of this comment aside, we should conclude that the omission of the radical left-wing nature of Einstein's politics is not only egregious, but likely intentional.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.53.11.40 (talk • contribs) 17:39, 28 May 2007.

Einstein wasn't so much a radical - protester, marching in the streets, or violence advocate as we tend to think of radical in the USA - as he was just intellectually (and generally) anti-authority. (one ref: "Einstein: His Life and Universe" by Issacson). As far as Socialism, we should remember this was on the rise during his lifetime. Socialism is an old and respected political view in Europe, versus the association with 'radicalism' or Communism that Americans generally assign it....Einstein had personal aversions to any authority, beginning in his school years... It also should be pointed out that many groups and institutions sought to use his name to promote themselves....I just throw that out for whatever its worth. Engr105th 17:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Just added the link in my edit to settle the "red-baiting" issue: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1132/is_n8_v40/ai_6944290
I just want to note that Einstein was fairly radical in his time. He didn't march in the street but he did give talks directly taking the US to task for its inequality, its racism, its war drums. In his time he was considered pretty Red, and had many associations with known Communists, but he wasn't a member of the CPUSA himself nor did he support the actions of the USSR. Attempting to simply make Einstein "a regular intellectual" of his time is somewhat incorrect—he was more radical than many of his contemporaries, more outspoken, more willing to take risks. The more politically bland Einstein is common in hagiographical sources (and has been since his death, when his support for things like Civil Rights was still considered unseemly) but a few good books have come out lately on the subject, see e.g. the work of Fred Jerome. --24.147.86.187 17:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

full protection

The template says partial protection, but it seems to be full. --Allen 04:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing it, Yonatan. --Allen 04:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
No problem, I didn't even notice the request on the talk page. ;) Yonatan talk 06:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Looks like Stephen Colbert is up to his old tricks again.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sith Penguin Lord (talk • contribs) 08:44, May 25, 2007.
Um... why is the page fully protected? Is semiprotection (and the usual Wikipedia checks and balances) somehow not enough to protect the page from vandalism? Silly rabbit 20:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I've switched it to semi-protection, since the worst of the Colbert Report vandalism looks to be past.--ragesoss 20:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
It's been five months - is there a reason this article is still protected? -MBlume 06:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually it's been four months. (It was unprotected for a few hours on 21 June 2007.) The reason it needs permanent semi-protection is that when it is not semi-protected, it is hit by multiple anonymous vandals 15 to 20 times a day. The last experiment at unprotection lasted only five hours before it had to be reprotected. --teb728 07:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Einstein Zionism and the use of complete quotes

“I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from practical consideration, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain - especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state.” – Albert Einstein

http://globalwebpost.com/farooqm/writings/other/einstein.htm


Einstein is often portrayed as a Zionist and a supporter of the Jewish state. I believe that it would be important to demonstrate that he had serious reservations about the establishment of a Jewish state. Einstein's quotes deserve to be posted in their entirety. Only posting a portion of a quotation does not do him justice and often serves to misrepresent his positions.

Sunspot123 05:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Since the Einstein article is already long, and this subject has been a controversy magnet, perhaps attempting a separate article on the subject, just as with Relativity priority disputes, is a Good Thing? --Alvestrand 07:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps add something along the lines "Although he had misgivings, ..." with a reference attached. — DAGwyn 13:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The article presently says:
Despite his years of Zionist efforts, Einstein publicly stated reservations about the proposal to partition the British-supervised British Mandate of Palestine into independent Arab and Jewish countries. In a 1938 speech, "Our Debt to Zionism", he said: "I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain - especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state."
It seems to me that the one quoted sentence together with the lead-in expresses his reservations about the establishment of a Jewish state as well as the full quote. (By the way, I get DNS error from your link.) --teb728 22:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Where did the "Despite his years of Zionist efforts" opening come from? That surely needs to be sourced. — George [talk] 22:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
These transitional words refer to the first paragraph of the preceding section, which is sourced there. --teb728 23:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
This should likely be changed to point to the topic of the first paragraph then. The paragraph in question talks about cultural Zionism, while this statement implies the more common definition of Zionism (that is, political Zionism, supporting the state of Israel). The problem is the way this is currently worded makes it sound like "Despite supporting the creation of Israel, he publicly stated that it shouldn't be created", which further implies that he had a public facade that didn't match his private thoughts, which may or may not be true, but would definitely count as OR unsourced. I'll change the wording to reflect this difference. — George [talk] 20:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I changed this to use a wording closer to the defition of cultural Zionism: "Despite his years as a proponent of Jewish history and culture..." — George [talk] 21:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The above change looks pretty good to me. Thanks! — DAGwyn 00:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
You've misunderstood, Cultural and Political Zionism, Zionism in all it's forms is the belief that Jews have a right to live in their historic homeland, something Einstein supported, (yet had reservations about nationalism, per above). During pre-state Palestine and after Israel's creation he always supported Israel, including through fundraising starting in the 1920s Epson291 07:06, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Who misunderstood? By indentation you seem to refer to my first post, but I think it agrees with you. (If you clarify, feel free to remove this post.) --teb728 07:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Teb728, I should've been more clear, I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the user who changed it. Epson291 07:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
"A "proponent of Jewish history and culture" does not mean anything consturctive to me, and has nothing to do with Israel. It seems to me, certain people have tried to make the word Zionism and Zionist a slur and an ugly word. Regardless of Einstein's deep reservations about the conflict, and especially of the right-wing nationalist, Irgun (which was highly contentious in Israel for many years by the left, specifically of Ze'ev Jabotinsky, Einstein still professed Zionism, again the belief Jews have the right to live in their own land. Revisionist Zionism was something professed by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, something Einstein, was clearly opposed to (see quotes), though it can be attempted to be misconstrued as being against all Zionism, by those who want to make it so. Epson291 07:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I see; you were commenting on your revert. Is it true in the preceding paragraph that “Einstein was a cultural Zionist”? If I understand the article on Cultural Zionism correctly, it emphasizes reconnection to Judaism. That doesn’t sound like Einstein. Prior to 27 February the article said instead, “While Einstein was a supporter of Zionism in the cultural sense, he often expressed reservations regarding its application in terms of nationalism.” --teb728 08:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Cultural Zionism's emphasis is not on a reconnection to Judaism, but rather a reconnection to (secular) Jewish culture and the Hebrew language (versus Yiddish, Ladino, German, French, etc...) (See Ahad Ha'am, the founder of "Cultural Zionism" if you're curious), and that then, Israel could become both the cultural and religious centre of the Jewish people. But nonetheless, its emphasis is not on religion. Epson291 09:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Also, a small point, it shouldn't be, "a supporter of Zionism in the cultural sense," but rather, a supporter of Cultural Zionism, which is slightly different, since Cultural Zionism is the term. Epson291 09:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

aspergers syndrome

there is talk that einstien had aspergers syndrome (autism in a person with extremaly superior brain functioning) should we mention this, note: people with dissabilitys are not stupid, the fact einstien was a genius dose not mean he did not have a disability, genius is actually a symptom of aspergers, among other things ofcourse —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.206.77.234 (talk) 15:17:23, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

Something along this line used to be mentioned before a major revision six months ago; it said, “There is speculation that Einstein was a poor student, a slow learner, or had a form of autism, dyslexia, and/or ADHD. According to the biography by Pais (page 36, among others), such speculations are unfounded. Some researchers have periodically claimed otherwise, but most historians and doctors are skeptical of retrospective medical diagnoses, especially for complex and, in the case of ADHD, diagnostically-controversial conditions.” The speculation is more general than just about Asperger’s, and it is just speculation. In my opinion the paragraph was well removed. --teb728 19:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I understand your point, and I don't necessarily disagree with it, but one problem is that some people might come to Wikipedia to find out if Einstein had Aspergers. Or, they might "know" that he had Aspergers and seek to edit the article accordingly. Once nice thing about that paragraph is that it acknowledges that the claim was made but that is just speculation. Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 19:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Apparently Simon Baron-Cohen has been involved in studies about this ([2]). Not that it's more than speculation, but it is at least professional speculation. --Allen 20:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes that BBC article and Wikipedia's People speculated to have been autistic were referenced at “Some researchers have periodically claimed otherwise” in the earlier mention. The latter contains an NPOV discussion of the speculation regarding Einstein. So perhaps that is the answer to anyone who wants to mention possible autism here. --teb728 21:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

ofcourse its too late to actualy properly diagnose him but we do know he had some form of of disability, probably aspergers but it may be ADHD or dyslexia, we should atleast mentuion that he had a disability but were unsure on witch one —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.206.77.234 (talk) 20:13, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

We know no such thing: The speculation that he had AS is based on a belief that he was more interested in ideas than in people and not on any supposed disability. Whether he had AS or not, he had no disability. --teb728 08:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

yes i agree that aspergers isent really a disability if thats what you mean —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.213.88.85 (talk) 19:30, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

I agree that such speculation was well removed from the article, which is still too long. A problem we have is that Einstein's fame has led to a vast amount of claims involving him, and rebutting the false or unsubstantiated ones should not be undertaken by the article. (Except possibly if one is exceptionally widespread and wrong.) — DAGwyn 18:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, the speculation that Einstein had AS is not based on a belief that he was more interested in ideas than in people. Einstein lacked social skills. Most people with AS find difficult in casual talking. Unlike Feynmen, Einstein was not someone who liked casual talking. There are other points noted by psychologists like Baron-Cohen, which suggest that Einstein had Asperger's Syndrome. Masterpiece2000 08:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Many scientists lack social skills (arguably including myself). To go from there to an Asperger's Syndrome label is pure conjecture. Yes, arguably many scientists have Asperger's syndrome, but that is also largely conjecture. Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 13:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, the argument "AS implies poor social skills; Einstein had poor social skills; therefore, Einstein had AS" is invalid logic. — DAGwyn 15:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Einstein didn’t lack social skills. As Walter Isaacson points out here, “even as a teenager, Einstein made close friends, had passionate relationships, enjoyed collegial discussions, communicated well verbally and could empathize with friends and humanity in general.” --teb728 16:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

to the above he did have friends but he had friends who had leanrned to accept his social misunderstanding, just because your autistc dosent mean you dont get friends —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.201.197.61 (talk • contribs) 10:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

People in the autism spectrum have social misunderstanding, which they may overcome and/or other people may accommodate. There is, however, no particular reason to believe that Einstein had any social misunderstanding. --teb728 16:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Research has been carried by Simon Baron-Cohen and others into the possibility that Einstein, and others such as Isaac Newton, had AS or even HFA. They have concluded that Einstein probably had HFA, due to the delay in language acquisition during his childhood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.117.23.221 (talk) 12:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

This article is very well written, and appears to be very complete and informative. It's a pretty good and accurate description of Einstein's life. A good, thorough copyedit would be good, as there are still a couple errors in the prose, mainly things like some structural grammar and punctuation issues (commas not being there when they should, etc).

The article was overhauled by a copy editor several weeks ago. Generally when I notice grammatical or punctuation errors, I just fix them. If you know of any, please do the same or at least point them out. — DAGwyn 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The main issue holding this article up from GA status at the present time is references. There's still a lot of unsourced information, primarily earlier in the article, but a couple later on. There's some pretty bold statements that lack references as well. Examples:

Generally we have added references when they have been requested. Who has the time to find a reference for every single phrase? — DAGwyn 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Every single phrase doesn't have to be cited; just information in quotes, and information that is challenged (citation needed templates), and information that is likely to be challenged (specific figures, numbers, hard data, etc). Dr. Cash 06:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Lots of stuff in the 'Youth and schooling' section.
Frankly I would prefer much of that text removed altogether. It should be in a detailed book-length biography, but is generally unimportant trivia. Most likely it is all covered in Clark's biography. Unless specific statements are challenged, why should they have to have individual sources given? — DAGwyn 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Although he continued to be lauded for his work in theoretical physics, Einstein became increasingly isolated in his research, and his attempts were ultimately unsuccessful. ... No citations. This could also be construed as POV.
This is so well known that nobody had asked for a reference; I'm sure one can be found if it is truly necessary. This text and the surrounding text were thrashed out quite some time ago and represent consensus among the editors. My own research in physics was in this very area, and I worked hard to ensure that the text was descriptive, factual, and neutral. That Einstein did not succeed in his program is acknowledged by virtually everyone in a position to have an educated opinion about it. — DAGwyn 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I see that the Encyclopedia Britannica Online also calls Einstein's attempt "unsuccessful". I have added one of many possible references that say essentially the same thing as the text in our article. — DAGwyn 21:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
  • He became honorary president of the League against Imperialism created in Brussels in 1927.
That's mentioned in the League against Imperialism article. However, I was unable to find a reliable reference for his being honorary president at that session; it appears that Nehru was h.p. at that congress, and Einstein may have been h.p. later on. I revised the text accordingly and added the best readily-accessible ref I was able to find. — DAGwyn 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
  • The Leó Szilárd and Einstein letter information. The caption of the photo to the left indicates that it was both of them, but the letter was signed by Einstein alone. Did Szilárd actually co-author the letter, or his he trying to claim he did when he didn't? The text in the article is also unsourced.
    • Fixed Szilárd wrote the letter; Einstein signed it. Copied ref from Leó Szilárd --teb728 22:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
This is explained further in the linked Leó Szilárd article and in the Einstein-Szilárd letter article (the link to which I have just restored). — DAGwyn 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Before the cremation, Princeton Hospital pathologist Thomas Stoltz Harvey removed Einstein's brain for preservation, in hope that the neuroscience of the future would be able to discover what made Einstein so intelligent.
This is also referenced in the Thomas Stoltz Harvey article. — DAGwyn 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Some of the 'honors' are unsourced. Some aren't needed, as they're pretty obvious and general knowledge, like awards & elements named after him. But a statement like, "In 1990, his name was added to the Walhalla temple." should be sourced.
The linked Walhalla temple article is the appropriate place for that reference. A Google searh turns up plenty of potential references for its enshrinees. — DAGwyn 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
  • The Star Wars character Yoda's eyes were modeled after Einstein's. (and a whole paragraph in the popular culture section).
    • Removed the whole unsourced paragraph; it is still in the subarticle. (Yoda's eyes still unsourced.) --teb728 22:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
That was a very recent addition, well-known and mentioned (also unsourced) in the Yoda article. I've added the first authoritative reference I found using Google. I also restored the lead sentence from the deleted paragraph; it seems worth stating (and doesn't seem to need sourcing). — DAGwyn 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The other major issue with the references is that both Harvard references and inline citations are used in the article, and there doesn't seem to be any pattern over the types of information that either are used on -- it's pretty haphazard. While WP:CITE doesn't really say which citation format you should use (it talks about both, and lets editors decide), it doesn't look very professional to use both in the same document. Although I can see a justification for citing books written by Einstein himself using the Harvard method, and everything else using inline citations, since this would also produce a nice list of his own books and publications at the end of the article, while still leaving most of the other citations in the other footnote format.

A copy editor attempted to convert references to Harvard format as an "experiment". There would be a lot of work involved in converting everything to either form. — DAGwyn 23:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
This is not an excuse to not do it. I don't think the article can be called "good" with two major different forms of referencing being used like this; it's horribly confusing. Dr. Cash 06:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I think I completed the conversion of Harvard references—except for one Pais reference which is already in a footnote. Does it bother you that page references are lost in the process. --teb728 22:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
That bothers me somewhat (loss of page references). Why is it that they can't be included? (I thought they could.) — DAGwyn 22:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, page number can be specified, but it makes it a lot more complicated in the case where there are multiple references to a work (like Pais (1982)). Without page numbers you give the full inline citation once and subsequently refer to the original citation by name. That is what Dr. Cash started and I followed. With page numbers you need the full citation for each different page set. Except for Crelinsten (2006) and Pais (1982) I put them back in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TEB728 (talk • contribs) 00:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Loss of page numbers in the citations is a big problem. The best solution in my view is to have each note be a citation with page numbers, to a corresponding entry containing complete bibliographic information in a "References" section. See for example Attalus I. Paul August ☎ 19:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Overall, I think the article is very close to GA status, so I will put this on hold until October 9, 2007 (or sooner, if you can fix the issues). Cheers! Dr. Cash 05:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

One other minor issue. Could you change the name of the 'Einstein in popular culture' section. For one, WP:MSH states that the article title shouldn't be used in section headers, so 'Einstein' should be removed. The other issues is a general discouragement of 'in popular culture' sections, as they tend to invoke list generation and random trivial facts by anonymous editors. Although this section seems reasonably good and well written, there's still the referencing issue with the second paragraph, and this could spawn more garbage easily added to the article by anons and other vandals. Dr. Cash 05:24, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Renamed to Impact on popular culture. --teb728 22:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe this article now meets the Good Article criteria, and will be listed. Good work! Dr. Cash 01:46, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Request

Can someone please add an important quote to Einstiens article? It is "We cannot fix our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them" Thanks!!! Dustihowe 16:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but this article (or Wikipedia generally) is not a collection of quotations. The Wikiquote article is an appropriate place for your quote. And indeed there are several versions of the quote there. --teb728 17:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Albert Einstein's Last Words

I heard a story about how Albert Einstein's last words are unknown because he told them to a nurse who didn't speak German. Shouldn't this be on here?

Wikipedia doesn't include stories that someone hears. It includes only information from reputable sources. Do you have a reputable source for the story? --teb728 02:46, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
That's useless information anyway!
I heard that his last words were <<Gott wirklich spielt Würfel!>> — DAGwyn 06:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I've seen the fact that his last words were in German and heard by a nurse that didn't understand German in legit biographies of Einstein. I don't have one at hand, but an interested person should be able to find it. Bubba73 (talk), 20:20, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I actually started my search by looking at snopes.com as I was highly skeptical. However, it turns out that this story is "true", i.e., a verifiable, reliable source backs this up—from the 2 May 1955 issue of Time magazine:
“ Last week Professor Einstein trudged no more in the grounds of his beloved institute. A lingering gall-bladder infection sent him to the hospital. Blood began to escape from his aorta, the main artery. Shortly after midnight he muttered a few sentences in German. The night nurse could not understand, and the last words of the modern world's greatest scientist were lost. At 1:15 a.m. Albert Einstein, 76, died in his sleep. ”
Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 20:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not it is true, it is useless information. Many people's last words are not heard or are not captured for posterity. — DAGwyn 00:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd argue it is true (in the Wikipedia sense of the word) and it's not useless information—it's interesting. Whether it's interesting enough to be included in the article is debatable, but it is interesting information. Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 12:16, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I suppose it may interest some people. My point is that it qualifies as "trivia", since it doesn't tell us anything about Einstein the person, his work, his times, or any effect he had. The article is already too long, and doesn't need such trivia added. Indeed, I would prefer that some of the other "trivial" information already in the article be removed. A complete biography can afford to include such incidental details, but the encyclopedia article ought to be concise. — DAGwyn 19:25, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I suppose I agree with that. Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 19:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

IPA

I added the IPA for Einstein in English (check if correct). His being German/Swiss would account for the German (and native) pronunciation. Since he became an American citizen however, and lived in the United States the rest of his life, it's only fair to include the English pronunciation of his name, otherwise it would appear to the reader only the German way to say it, is proper, when the truth is, no one speaking English would say, "shtein" instead of "stein" when speaking German names. Epson291 08:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)it

I wonder if the article need either IPA – or the audio file. --teb728 08:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed the English IPA but kept the "German:" tag on the previous one. I fear that if we start including mispronunciations of his name in other languages it will turn into another instance of "everyone wants a piece of Einstein". — DAGwyn 20:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
How often do you hear English speakers call him /ˈaɪ̯nʃtaɪ̯n/ as opposed to /ˈaɪnstaɪn/? Which is the “mispronunciation”? --teb728 20:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
It's not a mispronunciation, thats how its pronounced in English. Consulting the Merriam-Webster dictionary, the ONLY pronunciation listed is /staɪn/, it doesn't even list /ʃtaɪ̯n/at all, even as a secondary pronunciation. Regardless if you think its a mispronunciation, it's the way you say his name in English. The reason of course, is a sh sound is not made, since there's no "h". Epson291 21:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
And to comment on other languages, there is clearly no justification, and I imagine no consensus, for any other languages to be added (in addition to this being the ENGLISH Wikipedia. But listing it as the only pronunciation is misleading to readers, because it would lead someone looking at this page to say ʃtaɪ̯n, which would be a nonstandard pronunciation of the name. Epson291 21:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Since you two clearly don't agree on pronunciation, let me ask again: Why does this article need any pronunciation?! --teb728 22:41, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I agreee, they probably do not even need either IPA or the audio file, but I didn't plan on removing the German pronunciation. Epson291 23:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Certain foreign names would benefit from IPAs, though. Saparmurat Niyazov comes to mind, though rather than learning how to pronounce foreign names, I do realize people would rather mangle them long enough to fit into the morphology of their native lingo (a habit I've always found intensely disrespectful, regardless of how widespread or well-founded it might be). --Agamemnon2 05:24, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to battle over this. But please, let's not allow any other pronunciations to be added (French, Swahili, whatever). — DAGwyn 00:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
You mean like the halva article? Epson291 06:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Nobel Prize

Why isn't the Nobel Prize icon next to his name? MLK, Elie Wiesel, and Al Gore all have it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.141.51 (talk) 19:31, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

MLK, Elie Wiesel, and Al Gore don't have "Notable Prizes" fields in their infoboxes. Einstein does, and there is a Nobel Prize icon next to the Nobel Prize listing in his Notable Prizes field. One Nobel Prize icon in the infobox is quite enough. --teb728 19:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
You are right, I apologize. I missed that icon. (69.255.141.51 14:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC))
Note: Just to check, I clicked on a link in the list of Nobel Laureates at random, and in that article the same scheme was used as we have for Einstein's info box. — DAGwyn 15:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Removal of content and citations

Of the three paragraphs below which were in the ‘Religious views’ section, user DAGwyn (talk · contribs), with "Removed advertisements for causes with minor or nonexistent connections to Einstein" in the edit summary, removed the first two entirely and removed the second sentence from the third paragraph:

(1) Einstein championed the work of psychologist Paul Diel,[1] which posited a biological and psychological, rather than theological or sociological, basis for morality.[2]

(2) Einstein was an Honorary Associate of the Rationalist Press Association beginning in 1934, and was an admirer of Ethical Culture.[3] He served on the advisory board of the First Humanist Society of New York[4][5]

(3) His friend Max Jammer explored Einstein's views on religion thoroughly in the 1999 book Einstein and Religion: Physics and Theology.[6] Corey S. Powell,[7] in the 2002 book God in the Equation: How Einstein Became the Prophet of the New Religious Era, considers Einstein the founder of what Powell, the executive editor of Discover magazine, calls sci/religion.[8]

In the next edit, the same user, with "EB online article has less information than we do, and contains errors which their editors refused to correct" in the edit summary, removed the {{Britannica}} template. Perhaps it should be restored (see what links to it), I don't know.

I will leave the Paul Diehl, Rationalist Press Association, Ethical Culture, or Humanist Society material and citations to others, because I'm not equipped to evaluate them. The Powell book is not an “advertisement” for anything. I restored the line, simplifying its citation. — Athaenara ✉ 08:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem we have is that everybody tries to claim a connection with Einstein in order to promote his own agenda. Einstein certainly was not a founder or prophet of the "new religion" Powell espouses. Citing Powell adds nothing about Einstein to the article, and amounts to promotion of "Original Research", which is against Wikipedia rules. A link or citation ought to add value to the article, which is already too long (it contains other trivia that could be removed with an increase in article quality). — DAGwyn 20:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation again

Epson291 changed the German and English pronunciations from [ˈalbɐt ˈaɪ̯nʃtaɪ̯n] and IPA: /ˈælbɝt ˈaɪnstaɪn/ respectively to [ˈalbɐt ˈaɪ̯nʃtaɪ̯n] and [ˈælbɝt ˈaɪnstaɪn] with the summary “Confused, one IPA had slashes, the other brackets, changed the second IPA to square brackets.” I know that for most people there is no difference. But if we are to use only slashes or only brackets, it should be slashes. In case you are interested, brackets indicate an exact phonetic pronunciation. Slashes indicate a phonemic pronunciation, where the exact pronunciation depends on the dialect. In particular, the exact pronunciation of IPA: /ɝ/ depends on whether one speaks a rhotic dialect. --teb728 t c 07:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know that, but thanks for passing that along. With the use of the IPA template for the German, and the IPA-eng template for the English, the English API has an extra "IPA:" in front of it. Is there a reason even for that template? Can we just switch it to the standard API one? It's not really a big deal, it just it looks a little inconsistent on the very first line of the article. Epson291 (talk) 12:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don’t insist on the IPAEng template. But the advantage of it is that it adds “IPA:” with a link to a pronunciation guide tailored for English for readers mystified by IPA. -teb728 t c 20:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Change reference 4

and a poll of prominent physicists named him the greatest physicist of all time.[4] The reference links to a BBC web site which refers to an article in Physics World, instead link directly to the article published in Physics World, apart from being the original source it's far more interesting. The link is: http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/851 Jellycats (talk) 23:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Done. — DAGwyn (talk) 00:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Einstein's formal education

I've been trying to find out exactly what the nature was of Einstein's formal education beyond secondary school. The WP entry merely says "Einstein graduated in 1900 from ETH with a degree in physics." The entry's source footnote links to a biographical site which states is no more helpful: he "...enrolled at the Swiss Federal Polytechnic School in Zurich. Albert graduated in 1900 with a degree in physics." I don't know about anyone else here, but the term "degree" doesn't satisfy my curiosity. What kind of degree? -Associate? -Ph.D? Surely we can do better than that! Does anyone have any reliable info about what level of a degree it was, and if there was a field of study more specific than just "physics"? Bricology (talk) 02:01, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Pais (p. 521) describes what he received in 1900 as a "diploma, which would entitle him to teach in high schools." As it says in the article, his PhD was granted in 1905. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TEB728 (talk • contribs) 03:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for that info. So can I take that to mean that his earlier "diploma" would've been the equivalent of a Masters Degree (required to teach in HS today,and the necessary step before a Ph.D)? Bricology (talk) 05:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I doubt that it’s safe to project early 21st century standards on the late 19th. I know Einstein entered ETH in 1896. I suspect he attended no classes after his 1900 diploma, only researching his thesis (and other papers) and working. From 1902 at least he was at the patent office in Bern. --teb728 t c 07:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
There is no obvious mapping between degrees issued at that place and time and degrees issued today. Why do you care? — DAGwyn 01:00, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Audio File

Does anyone else have a problem hearing his entire name on the audio file at the very benginning of the article? I propose we take it off until a better one is found. 128.194.21.91 (talk) 21:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Youth and Schooling

Albert Einstein was not an excellent student in elementary school. He was a failure/underachiever in all subjects excluding mathematics and science. His parents suspected him of the problem of having mental retardation because of it. I propose that this mistake be fixed before someone else receives the wrong information. 69.231.129.91 (talk) 20:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I restored the above comment, with proper formatting.
I would ask that somebody provide a reliable reference for that information, before we can seriously consider claiming it in the article. — DAGwyn (talk) 01:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Well since I am the one who called this comment bizarre and removed it due to its improbable claims that his parents suspected him of mental retardation because he was a failure in all subjects except math and science (how can you be mentally retarded if you are good at math and science?), and the way it disrupted the talk page comments and formatting in its original form, I guess since it was restored in a better format version I have to provide some information regarding its claims. According to the existing citation Einstein_Student in the article: A charming source for Einstein's childhood is an affectionate memoir by his younger sister Maja [5]. She describes worries of their parents that little Albert was retarded because he was unusually slow to talk and He did well, both in primary and high school, but "the style of teaching [by rote learning] in most subjects was repugnant to him." Especially galling at the Gymnasium was the "military tone...the systematic training in the worship of authority." Britannica mentions that under the rigid German primary schools system he showed little scholastic ability. Therefore his parents did not suspect him of mental retardation because of his primary school performance but much earlier because of his inability to talk. His primary school performance although unremarkable, by later standards, appears to be at least ok with the pdf citation above calling it good while Britannica describes it as unremarkable. Noone mentions primary school performance as a cause of worries about mental retardation. Dr.K. (talk) 01:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, the current WP Einstein article does mention his lateness in talking, which has been well substantiated. The story goes: Young Albert's parents were becoming concerned that he might have a mental deficiency since he hadn't yet talked by the normal age, until one day at the table Albert stated clearly, in perfect German, «Diese Suppe zu heiß ist!» ("This soup is too hot!"). His astounded parents said, «So könnest sprechen Du! Warum nichts bis heute hast Du gesagt?» ("So you can speak! Why have you said nothing until today?"), to which Albert responded, «Bis jetzt ist alles im Ordnung gewesen.» ("Up to now everything was in order.") — DAGwyn (talk) 03:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
What a great story. And in the original German that made it so much more vivid. Thank you very much for the translation as well or should I say Danke schön. Auf Wiedersehen. Dr.K. (talk) 03:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually I heard it in translation, and translated it back to German. My German ist nicht sehr gut, so it is unlikely I exactly replicated the original. Probably nobody knows the exact words that were used anyway.. — DAGwyn (talk) 16:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The translation was a good idea. Unfortunately, given my German language skills, I can actually see it was a good translation but I couldn't come up with something at that level on my own, so relativity is something that applies to language skills as well and it definitely works in your favour. The exact words don't really matter. Just imagining this situation is fascinating. Thanks again and take care. Dr.K. (talk) 17:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The German translation of the English sentences are: "Diese Suppe ist zu heiß!", "So, Du kannst sprechen. Warum hast Du bis heute nichts gesagt?", "Bis jetzt ist alles in Ordnung gewesen." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.176.201.66 (talk) 21:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Vielen Dank. Dr.K. (talk) 22:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the improved translations. I hope if anybody wants to repeat the story, they'll use yours in place of my feeble attempt. — DAGwyn (talk) 01:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Albert Einstein Museum

The only US museum dedicated to Albert Einstein is at Landau, a family run retail store that sells fine woolens. There have been proposals to have the State of New Jersey build a museum to Einstein; so far the State has declined to do so. Further information about the Landau Museum is available here: http://www.landauprinceton.com/einstein-museum/ 17:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)John Rydberg

Picture

why dont u have that famous picture of him with his tongue out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.201.195 (talk) 20:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

That picture, together with some other Einstein trivia, was moved to Albert Einstein in popular culture. --teb728 t c 21:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Sense of Humor

It would be good to add some info on his sense of humor or a few quotes. Anyone know any sources?--DatDoo (talk) 03:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Einstein quotes belong in Wikiquote:Albert Einstein. --teb728 t c 04:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed paragraph

I removed the following problematic paragraph:

Albert and Mileva's marriage was beset with financial worries, and the couple divorced in 1919 after a prolonged estrangement. Mileva had become the primary parent for their sons. Einstein had but occasional contact with Hans, who developed mental illness and became institutionalized. Eduard became a successful engineer and eventually reconciled with his long-absent father. Only two months after his divorce, Albert married his longtime companion and second cousin, Elsa and moved to Princeton, New Jersey. This union produced no children.

If the marriage was beset by financial worries, there should be a citation. In any case contrary to the implication, such worries probably were not the cause of the divorce. Hans was the engineer, and Eduard the schizophrenic. Contrary to the implication, Albert and Elsa moved to Princeton many years after their marriage.

There were many problems with the recent attempt to break out the marriage-and-family-life to a separate section. I have just finished editing the article to straighten these out. — DAGwyn (talk) 00:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Waste of Einstein's talents? Sources please

This:

"While this period at the patent office has often been cited as a waste of Einstein's talents"

is not supported by the source provided:

"See, for example, the discussion in the "Moonlighting in the Patent Office" section of Gary F. Moring, The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Einstein (Alpha Books, 2004): 7."

I have just read the chapter "Moonlighting in the Patent Office" (thanks, Google Books), and I haven't found the words "waste of Einstein's talents" nor anything equivalent. The word "moonlighting" is not necessarily a negative word implying the waste of someone's talents, this may also be a positive word (see e.g. [3][4]). The word should not be interpreted in a biased manner. (--Edcolins (talk) 17:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC))

There is a problem with "often" anyway, since that would be hard to confirm. — DAGwyn (talk) 18:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The "may seem" seems original search and I have removed it.
But there is more to it. I have checked the reference "Subtle is the Lord. The Science and the Life of Albert Einstein" (the 2005 re-edition, ISBN 0-19-280672-6, I have no access to the 1982 edition). I haven't found anything supporting "While this period at the patent office may seem ... a temporary job with no connection to his interests in physics". In page 39, it reads instead: "... in his days at the patent office in Bern when he does his most creative work almost without personal contact with the physics community" (emphasis added). What was in the article appeared to be loosely inspired by this source, but not verified by it. I have reworded it so that it fits with the source provided (later in the book there is also "...end of Einstein's splendid isolation at the patent office...", i.e. isolation from the physics community, confirming what the author meant).
Now, the end of the sentence "the historian of science Peter Galison has argued that Einstein's work there was connected to his later interests" may need rewording to fit with the beginning... --Edcolins (talk) 20:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


Besides, when first looking at the cover page of the book "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Einstein", with much respect to the author of the book, this is not exactly the kind of book I would consider to be a reference book on the subject. That is, I wouldn't cite the source. What do you think? --Edcolins (talk) 17:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Such a book can be a guide as to what people commonly think about a subject. — DAGwyn (talk) 18:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
"Einstein for Dummies" would have been a more sensitive title. The way the title is phrased now restricts the potential readership of the book to a rather small segment of the population. Dr.K. (talk) 19:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Capturing a complete picture of Einstein's shifting religious views

The discussion below involves the proposed integration (not necessary sequentially) of the following two aspects of Einstein's religious views:

Einstein did believe in the person of Jesus, as indicated in the following dialog published in the Saturday Evening Post, 26 October 1929:
To what extent are you influenced by Christianity?
As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene.
Have you read Emil Ludwig’s book on Jesus?
Emil Ludwig’s Jesus is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot.
You accept the historical existence of Jesus?
Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.
Einstein's views of the church shifted with time and events. After the Holocaust, Einstein wrote a letter to the Episcopal bishop Edward R. Wells in 1945 concerning the behavior of the Church during this time. He stated: "Being a lover of freedom… I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks. Only the church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly."[9]

I believe that Einstein's view on Jesus is important to include because it provides important context to his statements about not believing in a personal god. I believe that Einstein's view on the church is important because it shows that his views changed dramatically throughout his life - something that isn't otherwise captured in the Wikipedia article.

The section does seem to be a bit long. I noticed that his views on a personal god are repeated in two paragraphs. Perhaps they could be pared down. --Ed Brey (talk) 01:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to remove the added text for a variety of reasons. First of all, Einstein was not Christian. No serious sources make any such claim, and the section is about the religion of Albert Einstein. Inclusion of two paragraphs from an explicitly Christian point of view in a section on Einstein's religion is misleading. Second, Einstein's views on the historicity of Jesus are equally irrelevant to his belief in a personal God. Some of the most vocal atheists, such as Richard Dawkins, believe in a historical Jesus. This fact is entirely irrelevant to their theistic beliefs or lack thereof. Finally, if this were an article on the religious views of Albert Einstein, then it might pass for inclusion. But the fact is that there is simply not enough space to consider every angle that has ever been thought of. Reams have been written on the religion of Albert Einstein, many of them in reliable publications. We have to be selective, and only include things that are of direct relevance to the subject. Silly rabbit (talk) 02:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Silly rabbit, I don't believe your reasoning addresses the spiritual impact that Jesus had in Einstein's life, even though he didn't profess to be a Christian. If Jesus were simply one of many historical figures to Einstein, one wouldn't expect him to talk about his "actual presence". Regarding the other proposed addition, would you agree that the dramatic shift in Einstein's views is worthy of capture, and if so, how would you recommend doing so? --Ed Brey (talk) 00:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
In a biography of several hundred pages there might be a place for your additions. But in this article they are clearly out of scope. --teb728 t c 06:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) I would also like to add, with the possibility of starting a new discussion on this topic in the near future, that the religious views section was repeatedly mentioned during the Featured article review, in which the article was delisted. The reviewers implored the editors to use fewer quotes in the section, and so trim the text down as well, calling the current section "amateurish" and criticizing its exclusive reliance on "dueling quotes." I also happen to believe that the section would benefit, not from more quotes, but from fewer quotes, summarizing the main points where appropriate. Silly rabbit (talk) 14:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The information presented by Ed Brey does not demonstrate that Einstein was a Christian. Even atheists can accept the historical existence of Jesus as a person (as Silly Rabbit pointed out) and acknowledge his influence, and they could praise a church for opposing Hitler's suppression of freedom; therefore Einstein doing so doesn't demonstrate anything significant about his religious beliefs. In any event, the claim constitutes "original research", which is prohibited by WP policy. We would need to cite a reliable source, and as Silly Rabbit says, there don't seem to be any making that claim.
The article is definitely too long, and I agree that the section on religion is a good candidate for reduction. I suspect that it acquired its current form as the result of compromise among several editors who wanted to push particular POVs. I suggest that any attempt at revision be proposed in the Talk page first, so we don't get into edit wars in the main article. — DAGwyn (talk) 16:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps there is some misunderstanding. I don't mean to imply that because Einstein said that he felt the actual presence of Jesus, that he was a Christian in the classical sense of putting his faith and trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of his sins. I think it would be best to avoid the word Christian because of the confusion it could cause. The question here is what to do with his comments that single out Jesus in such a unique way. --Ed Brey (talk) 23:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Could you elaborate specifically on what you see in the proposed additions as original research? --Ed Brey (talk) 23:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
You seem to have drawn some debatable conclusions from the quotations you cited; to assert such conclusions in the article would qualify as original research. And the alternative of merely repeating these selected quotations without context or interpretation risks undue emphasis by editorial selection; for example Einstein may have been merely trying to be agreeable, not arguing for some special mystical stats for Jesus. Of course there is inherently some editorial selection involved, but this material doesn't seem to be to have sufficient importance for understanding Einstein to justify its inclusion. — DAGwyn (talk) 22:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) I agree with your concerns about primary sources in general. But do they apply to this case? Specifically, can you quote the debatable conclusions for me? Given the length and depth of Einstein's remarks, how likely would you say it is that he was just being agreeable? If the acceptance standard for primary sources were so high to throw these out, it would seem that one would have to throw out nearly all primary sources for any article. As to relevance, I understand your point given the size of the section, which can be addressed by refactoring the section to move the sources externally. --Ed Brey (talk) 12:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Debatable conclusions: "Einstein's view on Jesus ... provides important context to his statements about not believing in a personal god." "Einstein's view on the church is important because it shows that his views changed dramatically throughout his life." Neither of those conclusions logically follows from the cited quotations, and so far as I know Einstein's major biographers did not draw such conclusions. As to Einstein believing in a "historical Jesus", i.e. that a man of that name did exist and was a significant religious activist, that is the generally accepted view of historians and doesn't imply anything about a person's religious views. It's simply "not notable". — DAGwyn (talk) 16:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the quotations make up too much of the section. I would favor moving most, if not all, quotes over to wikiquote, which would leave lots of room to capture the aspects of his religious views that have been brought up so far in a tidy-sized section. Thoughts on that? --Ed Brey (talk) 23:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see the amount of quotation in this article reduced, but summarizing Einstein's religious views is tricky (see others' discussion below). If you want to try that, please propose the resulting text in this Talk page so we can discuss it before modifying the article. — DAGwyn (talk) 22:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
It would be original research unless reliable secondary sources can be brought in to substantiate the text. (See the section of WP:OR where it talks about primary versus secondary source.) I think this is a concern of the section more generally, that the section fails to establish reliable sources for Einstein's religious views beyond the direct quotes from Einstein himself (which are primary sources, and therefore inadmissible). Silly rabbit (talk) 23:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
WP:OR says that primary sources can be used on their own as long as a nonspecialist who reads the primary source can verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. As far as I can tell, the proposed additions meet that criterion. What text do you see as original and how would you recommend changing it to make it unoriginal? --Ed Brey (talk) 18:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
a primary source when it is the subject of the article - Einstein - is certainly not inadmissible. quotes directly from einstein are perfectly acceptable for establishing any X about einstein. that said, the 'problem' with einstein's religion is that too many people have an axe to grind with regard to it. the faithful want to point out that this great scientist believed in god, the atheists want to claim einstein as one of their own. the reality is that einstein's faith was told ambiguously by einstein himself - there are to be found completely contradictory quotes from einstein regarding faith and god. at best, that is what the article should note - that einstein's views of faith/god can't be nailed down, because he made conflicting statements about it. Anastrophe (talk) 18:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree that primary sources, when they are clear and unambiguous, should be acceptable (heck, even preferable). The WP policy for references is aimed at situations where there is reasonable dispute about the primary source. As to whether Einstein made "conflicting statements" about his religious views, it's hard to be sure; some of that may be a change in emphasis as he aged, or different contexts where he was emphasizing different aspects of a possibly coherent view. It is certainly true that the Einstein article (not just the religious view sections) has historically had problems with too many people espousing different POVs trying to claim support from Einstein. — DAGwyn (talk) 22:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Albert Einstein's views on religion

Shouldn't we have a daughter article on this subject? We have one for Charles Darwin's views on religion, and Einstein is of similar notability, both in general and for his religious views. There also seems to be a whole book on the subject (Einstein and Religion : Physics and Theology by Max Jammer, also used as a reference at one point). If someone can write an almost 300 page book on this topic surely we can write an article on it. Richard001 (talk) 00:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to create one, and perhaps move much of the current text from the religious-views section of the Einstein article to the daughter article, which of course should then be linked to. Frankly, I don't find Einstein's views on religion to be very interesting. — DAGwyn (talk) 04:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
If you do create one, do not attempt to present your own conclusion on his views based on Einstein quotations. As was pointed out in the preceding section, that would be WP:OR. —teb728 t c 05:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I'm familiar with what OR is. I'm not really intending to create one myself, it was just a suggestion for people working on the article to consider, if they already haven't. This article can still of course become an FA (again) without there being a subarticle on religion, but it certainly can't provide all the encyclopedic information that could be provided on this aspect without giving undue weight to religion. Richard001 (talk) 06:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Note that I did overhaul the section somewhat to put the information into a more coherent order. I'm not convinced that much more needs to be done in this area. — DAGwyn (talk) 21:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Socialism and Pacifism?

Aren't these contradictory labels? Socialism (as preached by all socialists except the libertarian socialists) requires the use of force which contradicts the tenets of pacifism. afr3 (talk) 07:54, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

That is a simplistic view. Pacifism is largely about avoiding war, and even an agressive socialist might believe in that. Also, even if the ideas were blatantly contradictory, so long as Einstein really did believe in both of them then that should be reported. — DAGwyn (talk) 17:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Offered Presidency of Israel?

I've read numerous times in biographies and scientific books that Einstein was at one point offered to become President of Israel shortly after it was created, but he turned the offer down..

Is this true? I see no mention of it in the article...

Gamer112 (talk) 07:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

1 (read 1952 section) & 2. AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 16:18, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
And it is in the article—in the last paragraph of Albert Einstein#Zionism —teb728 t c 19:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hermann Einstein

Albert Einstein's father died in 1902, shortly after giving his permission for his son to marry Mileva, and not in 1910, before the birth of his second grandson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.59.61.49 (talk) 01:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out —teb728 t c 02:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

His languages?

Can anyone direct me to a resource that indicates which languages Einstein was fluent in? I'm guessing German and English, doubtfully Yiddish...but any others? As a pioneer in a rapidly developing area, I expect he'd want to keep up with breakthroughs in the journals of his era. I've found it a curiously difficult thing to research for any historical figure, at least in terms of generating a complete list. Asat (talk) 13:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Einstein was ever very fluent in English. So far as I am aware, he relied on German translations of scientific work written in other languages. — DAGwyn (talk) 17:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Einstein spoke German, French, and English. He could easily hold conversations in the latter two languages, but even after he moved to America, he preferred writing in his native German. When he dictated a first and second draft of the letter to Franklin Roosevelt regarding atomic fission, working with Leo Szilard, he did so in German. WalterIsaacson (talk) 21:41, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
can you provide a pointer to a reliable source that covers this? it would be useful for addition to the article. Anastrophe (talk) 21:53, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I wrote a biography of Einstein that came out last year (my Wikipedia moniker is my real name). I went through thousands of his letters, speeches, audio recordings, and interviews at the Einstein Papers Project at Cal Tech and elsewhere. Because this falls, I assume, into the category of "original research," I did not feel it proper to make a change in the article based upon it. There is no single sentence in my book making this point explicitly. WalterIsaacson (talk) 16:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I can't remember sources, but Einstein spoke German, French (diplomat's language), and Latin (former language of science), and complained he didn't want to learn "new languages" such as English (perhaps a humorous quip); almost certainly, add Italian since Italy was a favorite place. Note that Einstein's mastery of German involved poetic or clever phrasing. I hope those details help with finding sources. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
When Born was in Scotland and Einstein was in America, Born suggested that they

write in English. Einstein said that he preferred to write in German. He said that he could remember the English words all right, but could not cope with the treacherous spelling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.211.50 (talk) 09:35, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Can "Little Al from Princeton" redirect here?

It would be cool if putting in Nick The Greek's reported nickname for Einstein redirected to this page. 69.108.24.80 (talk) 16:40, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

So what's stopping it from doing so? And what are you talking about? — DAGwyn (talk) 15:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

"What are you talking about" is my exact question to you. It's pretty easy to find out what I'm talking about. The Nick the Greek/Einstein story is well-known, and if you don't just google it. 68.123.158.127 (talk) 16:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Snopes reviews the story and says its status is “Undetermined.” —teb728 t c 19:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Views on Zionism

Einstein was a Zionist and supporter of Chaim Weizmann and Theodore Herzl, but the article so far has much more of his criticism of the far right in Israel/the Yishuv. Consequently, it looks like he was far more critical of Israel and its founding than he actually was. I am a new editor on Wikipedia, so I am hesitant to be aggressive on this issue - I have to date made only minor modifications pending further talk and consideration. - Jameseavesjo

First of all, welcome to Wikipedia! Second of all, I have a feeling that snippet was chosen on purpose to distort Einstein's views, and the changes you made were certainly accurate. A look around on the internet shows a lot of this anti-Israeli/anti-Jewish propaganda, distorting Einstein (for instance). I welcome you to make more aggressive ones provided they are done in a NPOV fashion and sourced. Epson291 (talk) 08:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I would add that generally speaking the Einstein article would be improved more by removing unnecessary or misleading text than by adding more text. It is already too long, and the section on Zionism is unbalanced by including more detail than is in most other sections. — DAGwyn (talk) 23:06, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
While I agree with most of the comments, above, I would add that the section in question is reasonably well written and appropriately referenced. I would say that the whole article could stand some editing and the moving of some sections into sub-articles. Sunray (talk) 00:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I thought the information on the wiki page 'Albert Einstein' was born into a jewish family, there is a greater chance of him being jewish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Superman417 (talk • contribs) 01:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Swiss citizenship

Citizenship in Switzerland is by canton, rather than nation-wide. Perhaps this should be made clear in Einstein's biography. --Wloveral (talk) 21:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it would raise more questions than it answers, and really is unimportant to dwell on. — DAGwyn (talk) 22:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
OK. --Wloveral (talk) 23:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

5 years as Stateless Person & 2x avoidance of Military Service

I don't know if anybody ever looked at what a complicated citizenship life Einstein had. From the Wiki article on Einstein, section "Youth and Schooling" it says.

The Einsteins sent Albert to Aarau, Switzerland to finish secondary school. While lodging with the family of Professor Jost Winteler, he fell in love with the family's daughter, Marie. (Albert's sister Maja later married Paul Winteler.)[11][12] ... In 1896, he graduated at age 17, renounced his German citizenship to avoid military service (with his father's approval), and finally enrolled in the mathematics program at ETH. ...

So from 1896 he was a stateless person (refugee?) living in Switzerland in the Canton of Aargau. Was renouncing German or Württemberg citizenship that easy for a 17 year old -- even with his father's approval in 1896?

In 1896, Einstein's future wife, Mileva Marić, also enrolled at ETH, as the only woman studying mathematics. During the next few years, Einstein and Marić's friendship developed into romance. Einstein graduated in 1900 from ETH with a degree in physics.[13] ... On 21 February 1901, he gained Swiss citizenship, which he never revoked.[14]

And in February 1901 he received Swiss citizenship in the Canton of Zürich.

The site: [5] which is given as reference number 13 above further states:

He did manage to avoid Swiss military service on the grounds that he had flat feet and varicose veins.

On site [6], listed as reference number 14 above, it indicates that he renounced his German or Württemberg citizenship on January 28, 1896 so he was stateless for over five years.

The same site appears to indicate that he took Austrian (Austro-Hungarian?) citizenship in 1911 as part of a University posting in Prague, Bohemia. It also indicates that Einstein regained German citizenship in April 1914 , before the start of WW 1, as a result of his entering the German (Prussian?) civil service as a member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences and professor at the University of Berlin. Loosing it in March 1932 when he left Germany. Were the Austrian and the second German citizenships job related documents?

From 1932 to 1940 he only held Swiss citizenship. And in 1940 he received U.S. citizenship.

Does anyone else think that just the various citizenships that he held was complicated? I won't even start on his two marriages. The first one was quite complicated.--TGC55 (talk) 01:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This talk page is for discussing improvements to the Albert Einstein article. It is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. Essentially everything you say is already in the article. Unless there is there some change you are proposing to the article, your comments are off-topic. —teb728 t c 03:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments and the suggestion. As far as Austrian citizenship, one site said that Einstein had to declare his religion as "Masonic" to receive the Prague University posting as well as "beg" to receive Austrian citizenship.--TGC55 (talk) 01:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Semiprotection.

Whats the reason? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.73.1.127 (talk) 04:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Assuming you are referring to this article rather than semiprotection in general: Before the article was protected, it was vandalized about 15 to 20 times a day by multiple anonymous IPs. When they have tried to unprotect it, the vandalism returns within hours.
Re. semiprotection in general, it is intended to provide a way to trace further vandalism to registered accounts, to add accountability and a means to administratively deal with such persons. There are too many IP addresses which are not attached to a single individual to make IP-based protection a viable approach in general (although really offensive domains could have their whole range of IP addresses blocked).

married

he was maried two a women and they had two sons then they had a divorce and then he got married to his COUSIN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.70.134 (talk) 21:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

There is vandalism on the main page. I would love to edit it but the article is locked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.125.189.206 (talk) 13:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Jewish as an ethnicity?

I've changed the Jewish ethnicity to Semitic. Whether "Jewish" is an ethnicity or not is debatable, and Hebrew/Semitic is a more correct term. Intranetusa 04:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

That text had resulted as a consensus after a long and sometimes acrimonious debate in the Talk page. Anyway, your position is certainly also debatable and not clearly an improvement. While I have heard Einstein categorized as Jewish, I have never heard him categorized as Hebrew or Semitic. — DAGwyn 20:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Being a Jew is a race much in the same way that it is a religion. Among Judaism, there are several different ethnic division (see Jewish ethnic divisions), but the members of the certain Jewish "rites" (if you will) are a race - descendents of Ashkenazi Jews, for example, all share some DNA. As such, it is fair to categorize Einstein as ethnic Jew under his biographical chart (see Talk:Jew, topic 20.) Eddy23 (talk) 05:37, 29 December 2007 (UTC)Eddy23
Decendants of Christians will also share a great deal of DNA as well. Judaism is as much a race as Christianity or Islamism. 64.230.4.137 (talk) 08:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
See the article on ethnicity, Jews certainly are such. Also, see the difference between Judiasm and Jew, they are not equitable. Judiasm is not an ethnic group, but Jew certainly is. Epson291 (talk) 07:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
To claim that 'Jewish' is not an ethnicity is about as bizarre as it gets. The article lists him as 'German born' - that is ignorant, stupid, antisemitic nonsense. He was not German or German born (whatever that means): that's like claiming that had Audrey Hepburn been born in China because her mother stayed overnight in Hong Kong and came into labour prematurely, she would have been Chinese. Einstein was Jewish, end of. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.142.51.19 (talk) 23:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Do you seriously dispute that Einstein was born in Germany, or that stating that fact is "antisemitic"? The present text is a consensus resulting from long discussion and debate. The only reason his birth place is mentioned in the lead is that it explains why the German pronunciation of his name is given there. — DAGwyn (talk) 22:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Judaism is not an ethnicity- it is a religious faith. To say that Judaism is an ethnicity is falling into the trap that the Nazis did- a Jew is a Jew by religious choice- saying that it is an ethnicity negates any conversions that take place in or out of the faith which is absurd. I can't believe that wikipedia allows this to stand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbmerge (talk • contribs) 01:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

You are correct that Judaism is a religion. Except in his youth Einstein was not a believer in Judaism, nor does the article say he was. Jewishness, on the other hand, is an ethnicity. (See the article Jew). As the article says, Einstein was ethnically Jewish. —teb728 t c 02:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC).
This issue has been debated before, more than once, and the closest we found to a consensus was to identifiy it as an "ethnicity" in Einstein's case. As TEB728 said, Einstein was not Jewish in the religious sense.

Shalom, everyone! I lived in Israel for six month, took a class on Jewish ethnic minorities at Haifa University, and as an aspiring cultural anthropologist, and now currently take five anthropology classes including one on Ethnicity, I have great news for you all! Yes, wait for it... Jewish-ness is, in fact, an ethnicity. I really don't know what you people are rambling about... frankly, don't have time to read through all these silly ideas you people have. Jewish ethnicity is complicated, but it's a fact. It exists. End of story. Learned to live with it, love it. Oh, and unless I've been misinformed all of my life, Einstein is a Jew. I'm a big fan of his: a bobble-head and a portrait to prove it. But here's the kicker, to answer the none-sense about how Jewish ethnicity is Nazi propaganda! If you convert to Orthodox Judaism, you become ethnically Jewish. It's magical and bizarre, I know, but that's how it works. Philolexica (talk) 14:28, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

For more on AE's own view of his ethnicity, see this link for the text of a letter recently made public. (He also gives his view of religion: see the new entry by User:Malick78 in "Religion again", below) --Old Moonraker (talk) 09:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Letter now incorporated. --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Religion again

Another editor added "Religion = Judaism" to the infobox, which I reverted because in previous reading here I'd seen discussion where the conclusion 'seemed' to be "this is far from obvious, not simple, and even applying a tag would be misleading".

I've a question I'd like to ask, as I've not seen such a thing elsewhere, even on articles with years-long arguments on fine points, that were 'finally' resolved to one consensus or another. Would it be useful to have a small section above that gives a short summary list of difficult/contentious issues and their consensus outcome? Something like:

These items have had extensive prior discussions with consensus resolutions as noted below. Before asking for reconsideration of these, please review the archived discussions and determine the significant new points to be raised in your comments on this talk page.
  • religion - ill-defined after review from sources/interviews, so leave out of infobox
  • ethnicity - source from parents', regional/national not specified as multinational life
  • ...

I thought something like this would be a great thing to ask a new editor to look at, after reverting their reflex change of a 'difficult' item 'obvious' to them, like, uh, I just did.  :-(   Has anyone here seen anything like this done on other articles? Shenme (talk) 22:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I am also confused about the religion of Einstein. I think only an expert on Einstein can give us an appropriate reply. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 05:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
The article is currently pretty clear about Einstein's religious views. He didn't follow any of the organized religions, and didn't think a supernatural being was involved in daily affairs. He was almost, but not quite, pantheistic. — DAGwyn (talk) 18:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • By the end of his life he thought religion was "childish". See here for a letter that has recently turned up. Malick78 (talk) 08:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Here is the Abridged letter from Einstein to Eric Gutkind from Princeton, January 1954, translated from German by Joan Stambaugh.[7] I will now read it carefully. Einstein mentions the philosopher Spinoza - who believed that God represents the deterministic system of living nature herself. Einstein's attack on religion sounds very similar to Stephen Weinberg's interview in the BBC's Atheism Tapes, who is openly hostile against religion. --Diamonddavej (talk) 13:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

List of scientific publications of Albert Einstein

Hi all,

I'm about to nominate List of scientific publications of Albert Einstein as a Featured List candidate, but I'd welcome your suggestions before I do. As you might notice, it's been a ton of work, so please be gentle in your criticisms; thank you! :) Willow (talk) 12:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I've now nominated it as a Featured List. Your input there would be welcome; please follow the link! :) Willow (talk) 20:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Religion: 3rd-hand quote

In the section on religious views the following quote is found:

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

Most of the quotes in this section are first-hand, direct quotes from Einstein's writings. But the source of this quote says "Albert Einstein, according to the testimony of Prince Hubertus of Lowenstein; as quoted by Ronald W. Clark, Einstein: The Life and Times, New York: World Publishing Company, 1971, p. 425."

It's important to distinguish it from the first-hand quotes in the article. It's filtered through the memories and prejudices of two people. Pol098 (talk) 12:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)