Talk:Al-Khalid tank
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The Al-Kahlid isn't the second tank in the world after the LeClerc to automatically track targets. Several major MBTs have had that ability for years. I took that out.
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[edit] T-90 link is to a Japanese tank
I think the T-90 link reference in this article is incorrect. It should link to a Chinese tank and not a Japanese one.
i agree. there seems to be some confusion as to what the tank is called, but this is the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_96
The T-90-II is not T-96. Added background info on development of T-90-II/MBT-2000. Adeptitus 23:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Unique Abilities
This section said that the Al-Khalid is the only tank in the world that can auto-track targets. Then it said only French tanks could do this. So how does this make the Al-Khalid the only tank in the world to auto-track targets? And why is it important to point out how it is vastly superior to the Russian T-90? DarthJesus 23:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
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- The user is most likely pro-Pakistani. It's POV, AFAIK. The T-90 is India's new most up to date MBT, given that the Arjun is going nowhere. Therefore, the Al Khalid is the direct opponent of Indian T-90s. JonCatalan 22:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Sounds like something from a promotional press release. What exactly does that mean anyway? That it has a battlefield communications net that keeps track of targets? That the gunsight is smart and changes the point of aim to track a target with the stabilizer? The Al-Khalid is assembled from all foreign components, so it is doubtful that it has anything that is completely unique.
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The implication that the Al-Khalid can snorkel using GPS to navigate seems a little unlikely to me. Can GPS be received underwater? 145.253.108.22 16:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Place of origin
I have removed Ukraine from "place of origin" in the infobox, again.
Ukraine did not help design or develop this tank. They did not build any prototypes. The tank was not tested in Ukraine. China and Pakistan developed the prototype (Type 90-IIM) which would accept foreign power trains. Variants of the Type 90-IIM were demonstrated with Chinese, German, British, French, and Ukrainian power-train components. This doesn't make all of these countries the tank's "place of origin"
The variant chosen for production in Pakistan, the Al-Khalid, happens to have a major component supplied by Ukraine.
The variant marketed by China, the MBT 2000, does not have a Ukrainian engine. —Michael Z. 2007-08-14 15:01 Z
- Can you point out the Pakistani contribution. Ukraine provided the engine. This was selected for the MBT-2000/Al-khalid. The prototype version must have tested many engines. The production variant had the Ukranian engine. Hence it is very necessary to have Ukraine also as a co-developer. What made you say that the MBT-2000 did not have the Ukranian engine. The MBT-2000 is the Al-Khalid. Want to know more. The variants with Chinese engines are the other variant of the Type 90.
Chanakyathegreat 17:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Nope. The Type 90-IIM was built as part of the Chinese-Pakistani co-development project to accept different engines. They spent ten years developing the final version. The prototype with the Ukrainian engine was chosen to be produced as the Al-Khalid. Read through the linked articles to see where this information comes from.
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- Ukraine did not participate in designing the tank, it simply supplied a component.
We don't list France as a co-developer, even though they supplied fire-control systems.Incorrect: at least one source implied that the final prototype's fire-control system was "Western", but according to RAZA0007's source cited below, it is Chinese-Pakistani —Michael Z. 2007-08-24 01:45 Z
- Ukraine did not participate in designing the tank, it simply supplied a component.
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- "What made you say that the MBT-2000 did not have the Ukranian engine. The MBT-2000 is the Al-Khalid."—please provide a reference describing the engine of the MBT-2000 offered by China at Abu Dhabi.
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- "Want to know more." I can't tell if that is a request or a question.
You still don't get it. The Type 90-II/MBT-2000 tank is a Chinese tank and China owns the right to export it or allow the transfer of technology to license build the tank in any other nation. It may have any names in other services. But it still is the Type 90-II. Changing the name of the tank to Al-Khalid is creating trouble since in other links (especially in Chinese tanks), the tank is listed as Type-90/MBT-2000 but is taking to the Al-Khalid tank article. This need to be corrected. Chanakyathegreat 12:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC) Chanakyathegreat 12:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- When another version is exported or built elsewhere, we can examine renaming or splitting this article. Has China even demonstrated the MBT 2000 since 2001?
- What needs to be corrected? If the article was named Type 90-II or MBT 2000, then still more links to Al-Khalid would be "creating trouble", as you put it. There is nothing wrong with redirects. —Michael Z. 2007-08-30 15:46 Z
[edit] Al Khalid or MBT 2000 ?
Why is Al khalid under the heading of MBT 2000. Al khalid is not a 1 to 1 copy of MBT 2000. Yes, it is based on the original MBT 2000 but Pakistan has modified MBT 2000 for its own needs. For example MBT 2000 never had a Ukranian engine. Under Wkipedia policy only the lincence production (1 to 1 copy) is listed under a common name. Thus, Al khalid should be a seperate artice. Does anyone agree? Raza0007 22:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- The article should be moved to Al-Khalid tank instead, since this is the one and only real product of this project. I'm not sure which policy you're referring to—we should just give the article a sensible name. There's no point in splitting this into two articles, since they are the closely related result of a single project.
- MBT 2000 doesn't have any particular engine, it is merely the marketing name of the Type 90-IIM prototype, which could theoretically be produced with Chinese, German, British or Ukrainian engine, and possibly others. It is a speculative tank. Collectively, the fruits of this development project are often called "MBT 2000/Al-Khalid". —Michael Z. 2007-08-14 22:21 Z
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- Right. So then this article should be named Al-Khalid. That is what I was trying to say. The wiki policy I mentioned says that if something is produced under a licence then it should be put under the original name. For example if a country produces F-16s under licence, even if they call it differently, the resultant plane should be under F-16 heading. But it has to be a 1 to 1 copy (exact copy). Since Al-Khalid does not fall under this crieteria it should not be under MBT 2000 name. I hope it is clear now. Raza0007 22:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Also there is no tank called MBT 2000 produced anywhere in the world right now. The Chinese company has sold the right to produce these tanks to Pakistan. Pakistan has modifed this tank considerablly from the original MBT 2000. Thus, it should be called by its rightful name Al-Khalid. This article seems to be alright but it should be moved under Al-Khalid. Right now Al-Khalid redirects to MBT 2000. It should be the other way around. Raza0007 22:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Requested move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was MBT 2000 → Al-Khalid tank — Move from prototype name to name in service — —Michael Z. 2007-08-16 19:10 Z
[edit] Survey
- Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with
*'''Support'''or*'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
- Support as nominator. MBT 2000 is the name being used to market this tank family internationally by China—it refers to a prototype of unknown specifications and undetermined engine type. Al-Khalid is the name of the specific version being produced and serving in Pakistan, equipped with a Ukrainian-made diesel engine. This article is about a tank in service, and should be titled by its common name. For example, we don't title the article about the T-90 tank after one of its prototypes, Object 188 (original prototype) or Object 187 (another prototype whose turret was used for the latest T-90S). —Michael Z. 2007-08-16 19:18 Z
- Support. I support the name change from MBT 2000 to Al-Khalid. The Chinese company Nornico, in partnership with Pakistan, developed MBT 2000, but then sold the rights to Pakistan, who manufactures the modified version of this tank called Al-Khalid. Nornico is not interested in producing this tank any more as they also produce Type 96 and Type 99 for China. This tank is now produced solely by Pakistan as Al-Khalid. See discussion entry below for the title of the article. Raza0007 22:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion
- Any additional comments:
I proposed the specific article title "Al-Khalid tank" to head off potential naming conflicts with any other Khalids. "Tank" is much more accessible than the jargonesque "MBT".
Although I don't want to put too much weight on Google tests, the results seem strongly in favour of the proposal (3.8:1 ratio):
- "Al-Khalid" tank -wikipedia 10,400 results
- "MBT 2000" tank -wikipedia 2,710 results
Jane's Tanks and Combat Vehicles Recognition Guide, 2nd ed., uses "Al Khalid", not "MBT 2000" (although most other sources hyphenate "Al-Khalid"). —Michael Z. 2007-08-16 19:33 Z
- > I propose to call the article Al-Khalid and not Al-Khalid tank. The reason is that all other tank articles on wikipedia are called just by their name e.g T-90, Type 96, M1 Abrams, Merkava, Leopard 2 etc. The only exception is Challenger 2 tank where the word "tank" is part of the heading. This is why Al-Khalid article should be called just Al-Khalid. Anybody who ends up on the page will see the picture of a tank and know in a second that the article is related to a tank. Also I do not think there is anyother tank or military hardware called Al-Khalid so chances of confusion are slim. Now about the hyphen, the official name given to the tank by Pakistan is Al-Khalid with a hyphen in between. Although there is nothing wrong in calling it Al Khalid without the hyphen but the official name should be used for an encyclopedia entry. Raza0007 22:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
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- But the point is that anybody who doesn't end up on the page doesn't have to click a link to find out that it is a tank. Titles of articles show up in all kinds of places in isolation: in lists, in category pages, in search results, etc. We shouldn't force someone to click, wait for a page to load and start reading, if they are not interested in a tank in the first place.
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- Chances of confusion aren't slim, because so far there 40 articles listed on the Khalid disambiguation page. Again, the title is the one and only facet of the article which is seen by the reader before they have loaded the page.
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- And it's untrue that all other tank articles lack "tank" in their title. Before I got bored, I found Black Eagle tank, Bob Semple tank, BT tank, Cavalier tank, Centurion tank, Challenger 1 tank, Challenger tank, Charioteer tank, Chieftain tank, Churchill tank, Comet tank, Conqueror tank, Covenanter tank, Cromwell tank, Crusader tank, Excelsior A33 Tank, Iosif Stalin tank, Leopard tank, Light Tank Mk VI, Lion of Babylon tank, M103 heavy tank, M15/42 tank, M2 Light Tank, M2 Medium Tank, M6 Heavy Tank, Mark I tank, Matilda tank, P40 tank, Panther tank, Patton tank, Ram tank, Sentinel tank, Stingray Light Tank, Stuart tank, T-100 tank, T-18 tank, T-28 Super Heavy Tank, T-37 tank, T-38 tank, T-43 tank, T-50 tank, T-60 tank, T20 Medium Tank, T29 Heavy Tank, T30 Heavy Tank, Tetrarch tank, Tiger tank, Tsar Tank, Valentine tank, Valiant tank. —Michael Z. 2007-08-17 03:49 Z
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- Well, it is fine with me then. What I was talking about were the articles in the list of modern tanks. If you go to M1 Abrams page and scroll to the bottom, there is a templete for modern tanks, on that templete all tanks except Chellenger 2 have just the name of the tank listed in the article heading. There is no word "tank" after them. Since Al-Khalid is placed in the category of modern tanks so that is why I thought it should be named just Al-Khalid.
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- You'll note that four of the article links in that template already do this: Arjun MBT, Challenger 2 tank, K1 88-Tank, and Zulfiqar MBT. —Michael Z. 2007-08-17 19:24 Z
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- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article has been renamed from MBT 2000 to Al-Khalid tank as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 05:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Development
The development is done by the Chinese. Engine development done by the Ukranians. Provide details on any Pakistani contribution if it exists. Chanakyathegreat 16:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sources linked from the article say that China and Pakistan spent about ten years co-developing the tank design and its production facilities. I haven't seen any which contradict this. —Michael Z. 2007-08-22 17:43 Z
Apart from the 10 year R&D, since 2001 all major parts used in Al-Khalid are locally made. The only exception is the engine. Currently Pakistan does not posses the abiltity to make a reliable tank engine, very few countries actually do. This is the reason they are importing the engines from Ukraine. Currently the fire controle system in use is Chinese too. Here are the links for some of the parts used in Al-Khalid that are made in Pakistan
- Laser Range Finder, Laser Actuated Target System, Laser Threat Sensor etc
- 125 mm Tank Gun Barrel
- TANK AMMUNITION for Al-Khalid
- 12.7 MM ANTI AIRCRAFT MACHINE GUN
- Heavy Industries Taxila responsible for the Armour, Hull etc "Another link for HIT"
In comming years Pakistan will most likely be producing this tank A-Z in Pakistan. --->>Raza0007 03:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- I believe this is a valid consideration too, which has not been mentioned much. China is offering a version of this tank for sale, but all actual production, and the concurrent further practical development which must occur along with it (i.e. debugging and in-service mods), has been taking place in Pakistan (probably with Chinese co-operation?) for the last six years. —Michael Z. 2007-08-24 01:49 Z
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- Michael Z, I am sure the Chinese company is still providing valuable cooperation to Pakistan but below is the reason why I do not think they are still offering this tank for sale. Chinese Army did not order a single Type 90-IIM/MBT 2000 tank. The reason was they already had about Approx 2000 Type 96 tanks in service, made by the same company. If you compare the specs, Type 96 and Al-Khalid are very similar to each other. No wonder Chinese Army did not want another slightly different Type 96 tank. So, Nornico sold the rights to manufacture Type 90-IIM to Pakistan. Before it was 50-50 partnership. I am sure they are getting royalities on every copy of Al-Khalid produced. Also, Janes reported that Saudi Arabia was planning to evaluate Al-Khalid in March 2006. But they went to Pakistan not China. Had Nornico still manufatured this tank, I am sure Saudis would have gone to them instead. After all Pakistan is still new to Tank manufaturing and China has a lot of experience. Thus, this tank is now only produced in Pakistan.
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- As a side note to Chanakyathegreat, why Pakistan is put as the "place of origin" for Al-Khalid? Well, this is because they in partnership with China developed this tank. Granted it has the engine from Ukraine but that does not mean Pakistan does not have the right to call it their tank. Look at M1 Abrams, the place of origin is United States, but if you look at the specs, the protective Armor, the Chobham armour, is British! The gun on the original M1, the M68A1 105 mm rifled tank gun, was a license-built version of the British Royal Ordnance L7 gun. The current gun of M1A2, the M256 120 mm smoothbore gun, is German! produced under licence in USA. So, tell me, without Armor and main gun what is left in a tank? Does that mean USA is not the sole developer of M1A2? Of course it does not! Thus, Al-Khalid is developed by Pakistan and China, it does not matter if the engine is imported from Ukraine. I hope I made my point clear. ---> Raza0007 05:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Needs an Update
This article needs an update. Have the goals mentioned within the article been reached? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.49.160 (talk) 14:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

