Talk:Ahl al-Bayt
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[edit] Too much original research
As a whole, this article contains an inordinate amount of original research. There are numerous instances where factual claims are made with only "according to such and such person" as citation. I just removed the worst section, which literally contained nothing but original research and not a single citation. I'm going to start combing through the rest of the article during the next few days; I would encourage anyone else with the time to do so as well. We need to get more outside sources to verify what's in here, because as it is i'm having one hell of a hard time cross-referencing everything. MezzoMezzo 20:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed, and as mentioned above, the whole article reads like a pro-Shia screed. ITAQALLAH 23:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
- Tag everything with dates. Delete everything already tagged. Be mindful however not to delete things merely because they seem to support a Shia standpoint, however. I'm all for burning away all of the OR in this article, frankly I think that will contribute greatly to cleaning it up. Peter Deer (talk) 04:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Performing major cleanup and purge of original research
I've been asked to come in and clean up the article and remove the original research. I'm going to tag it up for now and over the next few days I'm going to try and find sources personally for most of this, and anything that seems even remotely dubious if it isn't sourced I'm just going to delete it.
I'm going to put a little list here of certain issues I would like help on in my edits and I welcome any I can get. I'll probably work on this more as I
- The Kisa Tradition section is just a total mess, almost to the point of being unreadable. It contains some reference to Hadith, which albeit a primary source is still a source, so I'd prefer it be cleaned up by someone who knew what they were doing instead of bulldozed by me.
- The Sunni Interpretation section has similar problems.
If anyone can think of anything else tell me. Peter Deer (talk) 05:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- What I'd like to see is the article focusing on the concept of Ahl al-Bayt from the general Islamic perspective, then we can have a views section where the variances between the Sunni and Shia approaches can be discussed. I do agree that substantial changes are needed, and I shall try to incorporate citations where possible. ITAQALLAH 15:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to remove the whole section "Ahl al-Bayt in hadiths" for now because it's an amalgamation of copy-pastes taken from various websites such as this. ITAQALLAH 15:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'd like to see much more compounding of things into common ground as opposed to conflict. I'd also like to fix the lead section and the second "Ahl Al-Bayt Family" section, because it seems to me like the second section is just a lead section that got too long and was cut off into a different section. Peter Deer (talk) 15:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- Though for the record I do think that the mentions in Hadith are important to the article and should be incorporated moderately and responsibly and only when relevant. Peter Deer (talk) 15:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'd recommend using third party reliable sources to establish the significance of any primary sources relevant to this topic. ITAQALLAH 23:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- Though for the record I do think that the mentions in Hadith are important to the article and should be incorporated moderately and responsibly and only when relevant. Peter Deer (talk) 15:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'd like to see much more compounding of things into common ground as opposed to conflict. I'd also like to fix the lead section and the second "Ahl Al-Bayt Family" section, because it seems to me like the second section is just a lead section that got too long and was cut off into a different section. Peter Deer (talk) 15:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to remove the whole section "Ahl al-Bayt in hadiths" for now because it's an amalgamation of copy-pastes taken from various websites such as this. ITAQALLAH 15:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the interpretations sections and have rewritten it to reflect the EoI's coverage of the topic, with contributions from Madelung. I thought it was a bit redundant having a section on the Ahl al-Bayt in Qur'an/hadith, because you'll inevitably end up discussing their interpretation in the section too. Thus I've put it all together into one section. I've added another section too about 'Significance' which I intend to rewrite/expand, which will basically discuss the significance of Ahl al Bayt in Muslim thought (including specific Sunni/Shi'i perspective) - where the information about the other Qur'anic verses and hadith narratives (thaqalayn etc.) will be more relevant. I've also rewritten the lead as well. ITAQALLAH 19:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
- I think insofar as notability is concerned that Hadith should, of course, have some inclusion (as it's so expansive it may be preferable for Ahl al-Bayt in Hadith to have its own article) but I think that the current deletion is necessary to getting this article back on the right track from the train wreck of unverifiable and obscure selections it had become. Peter Deer (talk) 19:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Ahl al-Bayt vs. Ahl al-Kisa
So the Ahl al-Bayt means People of the Household and refers to the household of Muhammad. Ahl al-Kisa means the People of the Cloak and refers to the persons in the Hadith of the Cloak. Ahl al-Bayt is often by Shiites considered to be referring only to the persons also considered the Ahl al-Kisa, and Sunnis consider Ahl al-Bayt to be more inclusive and pertain to all persons under Muhammad's household, not merely His descendants and son in law.
Does that seem accurate? Peter Deer (talk) 21:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
- That seems about right. ITAQALLAH 23:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, I've really only fairly recently started familiarizing myself with a lot of this terminology, so you'll have to bear with me as my English-speaking mind catches up with a lot of this. Part of the reason I'm doing this is to make this more comprehensive to Western peoples so that people have a place to learn a scholarly English presentation of Islam instead of having to learn about it from their preacher or from the war coverage on the news. Peter Deer (talk) 19:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Ahl al-Bayt in Quran and Hadith
I disagree with some part of Itaqallah's edition. He's removed information but left the source which lead to misinformation. He's also made the issue to some extent confusing. For example when the name of Salman al-Farsi is mentioned under the verse of purification, the reader may misunderstand the issue completely. Thus I reverted some part of the former editions and rearranged his works. I think it's inappropriate to write one tradition says x is among them, another one says the same thing about x and y, the other says something about z and so on. I think the reader wants to see the conclusion. --Seyyed(t-c) 02:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
- By all means, do what you feel needs to be done. I'd include Itaqallah in the discussion as well of course. Peter Deer (talk) 05:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
