Talk:Agrippina the Younger

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[edit] Prize

A Winner of the August 2004 West Dakota Prize

This entry has won the West Dakota Prize for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence.

A Winner of the March 2005 West Dakota Prize

This entry is one of only seventeen that have won the March 2005 West Dakota Prize for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence. --Wetman 08:22, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] First Comments

She was a terrible woman, but she was so for a reason like many other women in that period of time. I have to say however that I'm impressed with her will to live, how many times Nero had to try and kill her, and she was a survivor? Quite impressive if you think of it.--Camblunt100 09:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. As nasty as she supposedly was, she was quite a woman and very interesting. --Sophie-Lou 11:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

In 50 AD, wasn't she given the title of Augusta by Claudius? I'm sure I read that somewhere. --Sophie-Lou 11:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Britannicus

who Brittanicus and why was he killed


Britannicus was the son of Claudius and Messalina (though in the Masterpiece Theatre rendering of "I Claudius/Claudius The God" Claudius has suspicions that Britannicus was actually fathered by Caligula.) Britannicus was the natural heir to the throne before Claudius adopted Nero. Nero and Britannicus were to be Claudius' joint heirs upon Claudius' demise. When Nero fell out of favor with his mother, Agrippina Minor, she retaliated by threatening that Britannicus was the true heir to the throne. Nero responded by having Britannicus poisoned.

[edit] Legend states...

So what is the source of the legend about Agrippinilla's death? It doesn't appear in this form in Suetonius or Tacitus. Gdr 13:29, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear User, Tacitus' story is very complex. Her death is not clear. Probably her loyal defenders put her on safe (I think in Germany, where she founded the city of Cologne, whom real name is Colonia Agrippinensis).

[edit] Number of wives

Wasn't Messalina Claudius's third wife? I thought I would check before I changed it, but Im pretty sure Urgulania and Sejanus's relative (forget the name) count. --24.61.187.109 21:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Messalina was his third wife. Agrippina was his fourth. --Sophie-Lou 11:22, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Medieval

  • Dante puts her in hell for killing Claudius (Inferno XXXII)
This is not supported by the text on Wikisource (trans. Longfellow) nor in any other translation I've read (I only speak English but I've perused the current Italian text from time to time). Can someone give the canto, line number and (if applicable) translator to support this? Ellsworth 22:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

This absurd statement is completely false. Just one of many lies about Agrippina's memory. Dante never put Agrippina in Inferno. Agrippina never killed Claudius, who was probably killed by Seneca's party.

[edit] Her demise

From the article Quinquatria

At the Quinquatria in 59, Nero invited his mother, Agrippina the Younger, to his villa near Baiae, in an attempt to assassinate her. His old tutor, Anicetus, whom he had raised to be captain of the fleet of Misenum, had undertaken to construct a vessel which could be sunk, without exciting suspicion. Agrippina landed at Bauli, between Baiae and Cape Misenum, and completed her journey in a litter. After the banquet, when night had fallen, she was induced to return to Bauli in the vessel which had been prepared for her destruction. But the mechanism did not work as planned, and Agrippina succeeded in swimming to shore, from which she proceeded to her villa on the Lucrine lake. Nero soon after succeeded in his goal, however, with further help from Anicetus.[5]

If this is true, why not copy it here, with additions to how Nero finally killed her ?

Chris CII

Dear Chris, Tacitus' story is very complex. Her death is not clear. Probably her loyal defenders put her on safe (I think in Germany, where she founded the city of Cologne, whom real name is Colonia Agrippinensis).


-- Hmm. Tacitus' story is pretty straightforward and leaves no room for magical escapes to Germany. But leaving that aside and turning to the main text: Where do "four attempts" come from? After the collapsing boat trick didn't work, Nero sent soldiers right away (Tac. Ann. 14.1-9). This could count as two separate attempts (one of which successful), but... ? --Frippo 01:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

This article is not at all neutral and needs serious editing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.174.111.127 (talk) 18:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

This article is simply ridicolous. Especially ridicolous is the "child-like" allegation: "Agrippina did not reject murder as a way to win her battles", while it's cruel to affirm she murdered her husband Claudius, without quoting Barrett's studies and Racine's interpretation in "Britannicus". See Italian version for a good article.

Agreed -- I'm glad that a lot of the ideas in this discussion aren't reflected in the main article, but the article is still in need of some serious cleanup in both content and English style, and citations are needed for just about everything. I will start by removing the following sentence from the introduction: "This gave her a near mystical status and Tacitus tells that 'Her exceptionally illustrious birth is indisputable.'" I'm not sure where "near mystical status" comes from and the alleged quotation does not appear in Tacitus. I'm also deleting the bit about being resentful of male primogeniture; the sources depict her as avid for power and behaving as a co-ruler, but some sort of hatred of the patriarchy is anachronistic -- not to mention that the sentence as written grammatically suggests that "with her ... demise, [she grew] resentful," which is nonsense. More is necessary, but not tonight. --Frippo 01:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cologne

Agrippina did not help found the colonia at modern-day Cologne until the year 50, when she was already the wife of Claudius -- not in her "early life." I'm not sure where this stuff about helping Rome's brave boys comes from.

She certainly as a member of the Julio-Claudian family and most especially as the daughter of Germanicus had great popularity among the army, however. It's just not linked to helping veterans in her youth. --Frippo 01:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence sense?

I've read this a couple of times, but it still doesn't make sense. From the "Return from exhile" section: When Agrippina returned from exile, Messalina realised that Agrippina’s son was a threat to her son’s position, Messalina had sent assassins to strangle Lucius during his siesta. The assassins left in terror, when the snake suddenly darted from beneath Nero’s pillow; but was a slaughed snake-skin in his bed; near his pillow. "Slaughed"? Should that be "slaughtered"? Or something else completely? Why is "pillow" repeated? Can anyone re-write this so it makes more sense? -CaptainJae 20:31, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It's misspelled, should be sloughed. That said it doesn't make much sense. And on the subject of making sense, wth is with all the "hads"? They are way over-used in my opinion. For example, immediately after the above quote (which I note has been fixed): "In 47 Crispus had died" What is that? I mean, okay, yes, I know, it's a tense (the exact name for the tense escapes me atm) but why is it being used in almost every other sentence? It's an extremely rare tense in normal English, and makes the article read poorly. Maybe it was someone's attempt to get rid of passive voice (which, imo, would actually be preferable). That sentence should read either "...Crispus died" or, if we don't know for certain that he died in 47, something more like "...Crispus was dead" (which, now that I look at it, isn't even passive). I guess what's most annoying is that this construction seems to be violating parallelism with other nearby verbs.--75.83.200.29 22:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Update: I've finally traced the source of all the had's to the http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Agrippina_the_Younger&oldid=139379222 edit by Anriz. They did not exist prior to this (major) edit, and do not appear to have been altered since then. However, they are completely and totally unnecessary. I'll try to get them all in one edit so it can be easily reverted if necessary. I doubt that it will be. --75.83.200.29 23:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Update 2: Well... I tried. But I'm not familiar enough with the subject matter to resolve a lot of the ambiguities in the text. There should be a lot fewer past perfects in the sections up to Empress of Rome. But that isn't the only problem with the massive changes introduced in the edit mentioned above. Oh, and yes, I am the previous editor, I just hadn't logged in yet. Also, the edit above does not appear to cite any sources, which is especially worrisome given the large amount of new content it introduced. --Wlerin 23:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It reads much better now - Thanks to whoever tackled it! -CaptainJae (talk) 04:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SOURCES!!!

There are a lot of facts in this article and yet there is very little source material quoted to back up these facts. Could someone who knows their stuff please add at least some links to quotes from classical authors to prove some of the facts. It's very easy to just say stuff about Agrippina the Younger but you need to be able to prove it.