Talk:Afro-Brazilian
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the information about african brazilians are diveded into little pieces around wikipedia..
i think bring all together in one plase is a good think.
i started this article after i tried to find information about african brazilian.. and i have to go in various pages of many diferent subjects
[user:mateuszica]
I agree. The material is fine but it should be in Afro-Latin American. Please cast your vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Afro-Brazilian, SqueakBox 15:51, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] expand
famous afro brazilians , Origins , Comunnities, Culture
[edit] origins
The Africans , brought to brasil belonged to two major groups : the sudan people and the bantu people . The first, generaly were of high stature and more elaborated culture , were send in large scale to bahia. the bantus , natives from angola and Mozambique , were send in large scale to rio de janeiro , minas gerais, and northeast zona da mata.
Os negros, trazidos para o Brasil pertenciam a dois grandes grupos: os sudaneses e os bantos. Os primeiros, geralmente altos e de cultura mais elaborada, foram sobretudo para a Bahia. Os bantos, originários de Angola e Moçambique, predominaram na zona da mata nordestina, no Rio de Janeiro e em Minas Gerais.
[edit] Scope of article
From the current revision of the article:
- Afro-Brazilian is the term used to racially categorise Brazilian citizens of some or full Black African origin.
Where/by whom is that term used as such? In Brazil, as far as I know, "Afro-Brasileiro" is mostly used as an adjective relating to Brazilian cultural manifestations with African roots (e.g. Candomblé, Capoeira, etc), not as a racial term used to describe black people -- the word "negro" being the word currently en vogue, seen as politically correct and probably most commonly used for that.
Of course, English Wikipedia is concerned with the English meaning and usage of words, and therefore this article should contain information related to what "Afro-Brazilian" means and is used for in English; but I also don't see this expression used in English as meaning "Black Brazilian". If in fact it is not, then the article should be rewritten in order to remove that.
And, of course, editors should keep in mind that notions of race in Brazil are considerably different from those in English-speaking North America (and probably from those in most other English-speaking cultures). I say that because someone that an USer may consider black (or "Afro-Brazilian") may not at all be considered so in Brazil. I suspect that the inclusion of such names as Zeca Pagodinho in the article may be a symptom of that. What is said in the sentence above, that the term is used in regards to individuals of "some or full" black ancestry, if taken literally would mean that most Brazilians would be considered "Afro-Brazilians", when in fact in most of the cases the fraction of black African ancestry would be relatively fairly small, and often not visually noticeable. --Cotoco 19:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree. What do you propose we do about it? SqueakBox 01:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC) Wikipedia has Sonia Braga listed as Afro Brazilian as well even though most Brazilians and I am pretty sure most people in general if they saw her would not consider her to be black
First sentence of this article: "Afro-Brazilian or African Brazilian is the term used to racially categorise Brazilian citizens of some or full Black African origin, yet it is rarely used in Brazil." - Obvious question, "Well then, who the heck is it used by?" -- Writtenonsand 21:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pelé
His absence from this article was glaring, SqueakBox 00:43, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] False information! Delete!
This article needs to be deleted. I don't care for the way inwhich Amercians on wiki make up terms, or instruct others on how their culture functions, or how it should function. According to this so called bias, fee encyclopedia one would think every country in the world is a racist as the, modern utopia of the west(USA). This articles need to be deleted or changed!
--Margrave1206 21:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Branco, an Afro-Brazilian?
Guess that is inaccurate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.58.223.250 (talk) 02:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
"Pardo" is an Brazilian mestizo (mestiço). White x Amerindian, Black x White, etc. All pardos don't a black ancestry. Brazlian black population is 11 million of persons. This article don't have a neutral point of view. --201.19.167.208 19:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The real number of Afro-Brazilians
According to the 2000 IBGE census, 6.2% of Brazilians indentified themselves as Blacks. Another 38.4% as Mulato (mixed White and Black or Multiracial).
This census gives the number of 75 million Afro-Brazilians or 45% of Brazil's population.
Another fact is that a genetical resource concluded that close to 77 million Brazilians have 90% or more of their genes of African origin, which also confirms the 45% Afro-Brazilians.
86% of Brazilians have 10% or more of their genes of African origin.
The article is writen in Portuguese[1]
User:João Felipe C.S is trying to dimish the real number of Black Brazilians. I reverted him for that.Opinoso 21:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
According to 2000 census, had in Brazil 6,2% of Afro-descendants (Another 38.4% as Mulato (mixed White and Black). The genetics argument doesn’t prove anything. Famous Brazilian afro-descendents have European ancestry (such as Daiane dos Santos, 40% European) [2] Felipe C.S ( talk ) 22:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Having European ancestry does not erase a person's African ancestry.
A half Black half White person keeps being African-descendant. Barack Obama is half White is is still considerated Black by most Americans.
- Who cares about Americans ?
Halle Berry is half white and is considerated African-American.
If you have any amount of African ancestry, you are an Afro-Brazilian, no matter how blond you are.
45% of Brazilians consider themselves to be Afro-Brazilians. Another 40% has at least 10% of African genes.
Genetical resources DO say about a population ethnic origin and is as important as the census.
You have no argument to diminish the real size of the Afro-Brazilian population. What you do is racism against a Brazilian ethnic group.
You should be banned from Wikipedia. Opinoso 22:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- Opinoso, you don't understand? 90% of the population can have African genes, but this don't define the ethnic group. Genetic researches are interesting, but they are very recent and far from being an established set of criteria to base demographic information on. Please, we go to use the data of IBGE, that is most trustworthy and most used. Felipe C.S ( talk ) 23:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Suggested Compromise
{{editprotected}}
 Afro-Brazilians  |
|---|
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| Total population |
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"Black": c.11.5 million |
| Regions with significant populations |
| Brazil |
| Languages |
| Portuguese. |
| Religions |
| Predominantly Christianity (majorly Roman Catholic) |
| Related ethnic groups |
| African American, Afro-Arab, Afro-Cuban, Afro-Ecuadorian, Afro-German, Afro-Irish, Afro-Latin American, Afro-Mexican, Afro-Peruvian, Afro-Trinidadian, Black British, African Caribbean, Black Canadian, Black People, Afro-European. |
This would incorporate both figures, allowing the reader to judge for himself what he considers to be an afro-Brazilian. This recognizes Brazil's mixed heritage and is reflective of statements already in the article.--Dali-Llama 00:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Opinoso 16:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Me too. Felipe C.S ( talk ) 16:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 05:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
In the related ethnic groups section, it should just simply state Africans, Europeans, Arabs and Natives, rather than all these dozen here.
[edit] Salsa
On 10 January 2008 User:86.133.235.223 added Salsa to the listing of Afro-Brazilian Music Genres. I've removed this.
Per the article Salsa: "Salsa is essentially Cuban in stylistic origin, though it is also a hybrid of Puerto Rican and other Latin styles mixed with pop, jazz, rock, and R&B". AFAIK, there is nothing characteristically Brazilian about Salsa. If we want to start including all musical styles that are popular with some people in the Afro-Brazilian community, then we'll have to include Jazz, European Classical, and indeed every musical genre.
On the other hand, I am willing to be convinced that Salsa should be included in this article. Discussion? -- Writtenonsand (talk) 11:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Too many images
IMHO, article now has way too many images. ("Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files" - Wikipedia:Not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_mirror_or_a_repository_of_links.2C_images.2C_or_media_files.) Let's remove most of these. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 18:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:MargarethMenezes.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 00:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Ronaldinho
On 21 March 2008, 68.158.10.229 removed Ronaldinho from this article. Should he be listed here or not? -- Writtenonsand (talk) 08:19, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Nilo Peçanha
In the Brazilian Wikipedia, Nilo Peçanha is described as the first (I would say the only) Brazilian mulatto President.
During all his political career, he was accused of being a mulatto. The most famous are the accusation written in the letter scandal of Marechal Hermes government.
May he was a dark Portuguese, but I prefer to believe that he like the Barão de Cotegipe, someone that could be recognized as a mulatto, but who hide his African ancestors. By the way, the Barão de Cotegipe was AGAINST slave emancipation. Also, who proved that Machado de Assis had African ancestors?
--Quissamã (talk) 23:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
See Tribuna de Petrópolis's article where Nilo Peçanha is described as "mestiço do Morro do Coco, criado como ele mesmo dizia com pão dormido e paçoca, filho do Sebastião da Padaria".
--Quissamã (talk) 00:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
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- There are NO sources to say Peçanha had any African ancestry. At that time, perhaps, his opponents said that Peçanha was a mulato only to denigrate him (a racist vision, of course).
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But, as it's only an assumption and this is an encyclopedia, we should not put Peçanha in article Afro-Brazilian.
For Machado de Assis, anyone smarter knows that Machado de Assis was a son of a Mulatto father with a Portuguese mother. Just read his biography.
By the way, many other Brazilian presidents had some African ancestry, not only Peçanha, but even Fernando Henrique Cardoso, who already said to media he had a mulato great-grandmother, even though he looks as Caucasian as any Portuguese.
You cannot base ancestry in "apparence"; not in Brazil.
Lula probably has some. Maybe only presidents like Ernesto Geisel or Costa e Silva did not, because they were the sons of immigrants.
Most Brazilians whose family are in Brazil for over 4 generations have African ancestry, despite their physical apparence. Opinoso (talk) 12:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
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- I believe you are smarter than the guy wrote the topic Nilo Peçanha in the Brazilian Wikipedia...
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- --Quissamã (talk) 15:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
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- I made some alterations in and questioned the topic Nilo Peçanha in the Portuguese Wikipedia. Nilo Peçanha was certainly as dark as Machado de Assis, or Paulo Leminski or Colin Powell, and was born in a very poor family whose father was a backer in the poorest neighborhood of Campos dos Goytacazes. I am also amazed because Nilo Peçanha was always called a mulatto (by his political adversaries), but Machado de Assis never was (he had no political adversaries, but had some artistic arguments through his life, certainly).
- You said "one cannot base ancestry in apparence; not in Brazil". That is true, but just for white people who have a remote and unknown African ascentry. In Brasil, if one is dark-skinned, it almost sure that he or she has an African or Native ascentry, although I have known some Portuguese in Portugal who were as dark as Machado de Assis (may moorish influences).
- I agree we need some historical source about Nilo Peçanha based in reliable research. Maybe the Portuguese Wikipedia will provide us this source.
- --Quissamã (talk) 18:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
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- You cannot say Peçanha was a mulato based on black-and-white pictures. He wouldn't be out of place in Portugal.
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So what he was poor? Only Blacks in Brazil are/were poors? Please, learn about Brazil's History.
Machado de Assis was never called a mulatto? Please, read his biography. He was often discrimineted for being "POBRE, MULATO, EPILÉTICO, GAGO E TINHA A LETRA HORRÍVEL".
"Machado de Assis era mulato e, por isso, era muito discriminado. E por ser pobre, não tinha condições de estudar em cursos regulares, pois precisava trabalhar para ajudar o pai e a madrasta a sustentarem a casa..."[3]
Do you really know who Machado de Assis was? I guess you don't.
Nilo Peçanha could be part Jew, or even totally Jew (many of them came from Portugal to Brazil in the beggining of the colonization). Could be a darker skinned Portuguese-descendant, or maybe a mulatto. Who knows? We will never know it.
Peçanha looks the same way Pedro I of Brazil, who was part of a royal family and, of course, did not have any African ancestry. Take a look at John VI of Portugal. Mulatoes? No! Only different types of Europeans. Opinoso (talk) 17:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
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- "Please, learn about Brazil's History."
- "For Machado de Assis, anyone smarter knows that {...}. Just read his biography."
- There is no need to desqualify someone this way in a discussion. It looks bossy and priggish.
- Thanks to this discussion, I made alterations in the Portuguese Wikipedia adding a "talvez" about Nilo Peçanha being a mulatto. I hope the original writer come with realiabe sources.
- By the way, when you say that "Nilo Peçanha could be part Jew" you make the same mistake, supposing that Iberian (or Sephardi) Jews looked different from other people in Portugal or Spain.
- --Quissamã (talk) 17:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
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